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From what I recall (and will go check and correct if wrong in a minute) On a roll of 4+, you get night fight turn 1. Then at the start of each subsequent turn, on a roll of a 4+ it goes away and you don't need to roll for it again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/01 21:04:12
just played a few games at my local GW. Bikes are awesome. a 4+ coversave everywhere and 3+ when you turbo, and man can you turbo.
the init 10 hits dont hurt either, especially once they get 2 pain tokens which isnt hard.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
ShadarLogoth wrote:I really think people are blowing the overwatch against Wyches way out of proportion. With FNP you MAY lose a base or two against most opponents (which would be particularly shooty opponents that you should be handling in assault quite well anyway), and as others have mentioned you could certainly stick the Haeemie up front to eat those wounds for you. IIRCICs don't bleed victory points anymore. Also, torrent of attacks is now one of the most legitemate ways to clear out Terms (in CC), Wyches have a clear roll here, and Haywire should be an auto include for the girls.
Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.
FNP change is a pretty big buff for Talos/Chronos (as is the cover save changes), as you now get something against the weapons that you feared the most (lazzies, Missles, Lances, etc).
The WWP change makes me a sad panda as well. I still think it's a good delivery system for the MCs, as well as scourges/mandrakes (who can always choose outflank instead), and its not the end of the world for Grots/Wracks coming out of it either, it's still a scatter free DS to get into the opponents grill. But still, no assault is quite a bit disappointing. You just can't base your list around it anymore, but you can still use it as a nasty surprise for a handful of units, and potentially save those units from several turns of shooting. Also, Mandrakes/Haemie becomes an interesting WWP deployment option.
As Exergy has been saying Drazhar is a strait up BEAST. All the IC's are little better (2+ save headaches aside) but Drazhar is nasty.
"IIRCICs don't bleed victory points anymore."
Wrong. IC's and transports are still worth victory points. However, kill points is only the major focus in one of the 6 missions.
Exergy wrote:just played a few games at my local GW. Bikes are awesome. a 4+ coversave everywhere and 3+ when you turbo, and man can you turbo.
the init 10 hits dont hurt either, especially once they get 2 pain tokens which isnt hard.
This is incorrect. Jink is a 5+ cover save, turbo boosting makes it go to a 4+
Back on topic, DE seem to be pretty useless in 6th edition. Losing the assault after cruising speed is horrific for Wyches, as is the lower FNP roll.
DE bikes have skilled rider,. making it 4+/3+
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
I dont see the reasoning but webwayportals were nerfed hard, along with overall assaults in general.
It seems like Dark Eldar lost alot of their Alpha Strike Capabilities.
5000+ pts. Eldar 2500pts "The only thing that match's the Eldar's firepower, is their arrogance".
8th General at Alamo GT 2011.
Tied 2nd General Alamo GT 2012
Top General Lower Bracket Railhead 2011
Top General Railhead 2012
# of Local Tournaments Won: 4
28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Wyches got nerfed in at least four ways, to the point where only a very stupid general will take them in his army.
If you disagree, feel free to try and charge a squad of wyches into assault with anything, let me know how that goes for ya once their overwatch is done eating away half your models.
Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting.
Anyone who thinks Jink is a free flickerfield is free to tell me if he still thinks that that to my face after he lost his roll to go first against any army with even halfway reasonable long-range shooting. Remember, you can't full-reserve anymore! Have fun with that.
What happened to webways is clearly visible to all: They're laughably inept, and they never were a great option for Dark Eldar to begin with.
But hey, at least darklight spam got a bit better. If that's the DE playstyle you favor, you're good to go. Grab allied Eldrad, some dire avengers for anti-infantry, and rock on.
It was never what I saw in the army, though, and as far as I can see every single other way of playing Dark Eldar is just no longer feasible. I'm not exactly surprised, Dark Eldar lived in a very perilous area in 5e and our loss of even remotely worthwhile assault power in 6e is just...collateral damage to ensure Space Marines don't have to feel so afraid of normal power weapons. Even so, I remain saddened.
But hey, all is not lost! Imperial Guard won't bring Hydras anymore because someone at GW decided not to bother with giving them Interceptor when they errata'd in Skyfire. While they still tear asunder those fast skimmers like nobody's business, they can't do crud against ground targets, so don't expect anybody with a brain to field them outside of tailored lists.
Only those who don't understand statistics claim that mathhammer has no merit.
In my opinion, Haywyches are going to replace Blasterborn squads, as Haywire grenades are actually more reliable than Blasters now. Just assault that shiny tank or maybe even walker, outside of it's range if you're that paranoid about overwatch. But if you're within range, you'll do more damage them, because how often will a blaster remove a hull point? Because haywire will take them off 5/6 of the time, on everything from a land raider to a raider.
Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:In my opinion, Haywyches are going to replace Blasterborn squads, as Haywire grenades are actually more reliable than Blasters now. Just assault that shiny tank or maybe even walker, outside of it's range if you're that paranoid about overwatch. But if you're within range, you'll do more damage them, because how often will a blaster remove a hull point? Because haywire will take them off 5/6 of the time, on everything from a land raider to a raider.
Haywires are very reliable to removing hull points and Wyches are one of the best units to deliver them.
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Not happy about not being able to assault out of WWP's. As someone who had a really fun WWP list, it burns. Not entirely sure how I'm going to get the Cronos and Talos into the list effectively.
It's possible the WWP nerf isn't as severe as I thought, though.
That said, I'm suddenly up in the air on Haywire blasters, or rather how to field them. I took them because they were fantastic suppression. Now they are less about suppression, and more about actual killing.
Will have to do some actual play testing to see how it all works @_@
mynamelegend wrote:Wyches got nerfed in at least four ways, to the point where only a very stupid general will take them in his army.
If you disagree, feel free to try and charge a squad of wyches into assault with anything, let me know how that goes for ya once their overwatch is done eating away half your models.
Right cause BS1 shooting is scary... yes you will loose models even after the 5+ FNP but its no means the end of the world. You can shoot before you go in including throwing a grenade and still get the fleet boost. Challenge the SM sarge with the agoniser hekatrix and things look ok. Besides, wyches were never about taking out targets in combat - they were about tarpitting them.
mynamelegend wrote:Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting.
That comes down to your model placment as much as the enemies shooting... plus shooting by unit is till done togther.. its not like he magic up more guns from the same unit after you save (unless i missed something in my first read through)
mynamelegend wrote:Anyone who thinks Jink is a free flickerfield is free to tell me if he still thinks that that to my face after he lost his roll to go first against any army with even halfway reasonable long-range shooting. Remember, you can't full-reserve anymore! Have fun with that.
On this we agree - FF still have a place, especially as they affect combat and dangerous terrain.
mynamelegend wrote:What happened to webways is clearly visible to all: They're laughably inept, and they never were a great option for Dark Eldar to begin with.
They become a shooty deployment over a combt one now. A stupid change but like you said, the WWP was never the bee's knee's anyway.
mynamelegend wrote:But hey, at least darklight spam got a bit better. If that's the DE playstyle you favor, you're good to go. Grab allied Eldrad, some dire avengers for anti-infantry, and rock on.
It was never what I saw in the army, though, and as far as I can see every single other way of playing Dark Eldar is just no longer feasible. I'm not exactly surprised, Dark Eldar lived in a very perilous area in 5e and our loss of even remotely worthwhile assault power in 6e is just...collateral damage to ensure Space Marines don't have to feel so afraid of normal power weapons. Even so, I remain saddened.
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Kharrak wrote:That said, I'm suddenly up in the air on Haywire blasters, or rather how to field them. I took them because they were fantastic suppression. Now they are less about suppression, and more about actual killing.
Will have to do some actual play testing to see how it all works @_@
Well, you don't get anymore supressed than being dead
mynamelegend wrote:
Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting..
I think "focus fire" takes a "COVER SAVE" instead of "save"
The loss of wound allocation is a nerf however,especially against those S6 weapons
New beast formation and placement should be discussed, it's the last hope of DE assault
mynamelegend wrote:feel free to try and charge a squad of wyches into assault with anything, let me know how that goes for ya once their overwatch is done eating away half your models.
A marine bolter hits 1/6 of the time, and wounds 2/3 of the time -- resulting in 1/9 of their shots killing a DE before FNP. If the wyches have FNP, the chance drops to 2/27. (7.40740741%)
Unless your assaulting 10 marines with 2 wytches, on average you won't lose half your wyches.
Now, a squad of 30 shoota boys -- that's a different story....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorcererbob wrote:I can do this, right?
If they are shooting at the archon's unit, yea. He has a 35/36 chance of not taking whatever is thrown at him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/02 11:41:48
mynamelegend wrote:What happened to webways is clearly visible to all: They're laughably inept, and they never were a great option for Dark Eldar to begin with.
Which makes it that much worse - with allies and fortifications, Webway Portals would have become a viable list type, even with 50% reserves it would have been doable.
If they'd have just errata'd it to 'you can assault out of a webway portal' then we'd have been set.
Kharrak wrote:Not happy about not being able to assault out of WWP's. As someone who had a really fun WWP list, it burns. Not entirely sure how I'm going to get the Cronos and Talos into the list effectively.
It's possible the WWP nerf isn't as severe as I thought, though.
If you figure it out, let me know. (no really, PM me or something xD)
If they are shooting at the archon's unit, yea. He has a 35/36 chance of not taking whatever is thrown at him.
Consider a full blown "first line fire, second line fire" with 30 guardsmen (approximately the worst case scenario)
45 hits
22.5 wounds
Your archon will probably get through it without a scratch (the alternative being that your entire squad gets murdered). Just pray that he doesn't fail his saves early!
One to watch out for with our squishy non-combat Haemonculus -
Yesterday tried my first game using the new rules, ran a Haemy with Hexrifle and nothing else, he was in a building with 10 warriors. Previous turn he had disembarked some SM and a Librarian, I couldn't hit them as they hid behind the Rhino, next turn, Libby seperates and charges my Haemy by himself, and issues a challenge.
Wanting to try this new aspect out, I accepted knowing full well I would very likely die, which I duly did. (Being knocked to Str2 and T2 by a psychic attack didn't help) but then as i lost combat I had to take leadership on the 10 warriors, who failed, I VERY luckily rolled a 6 and didn't get cut down.
Long story short, weak HQ's - don't accept the challenge, or start equipping them to be a bit scary in CC!
The hexrifle was awesome though, first turn, rolled a 6 and killed the enemy sniper mwahaha.
The Farseer + Pathfinders combo is looking mighty tempting, would also be very nice to have proper pyschic defence, as these new powers are pretty nasty, and for a little while I think people are going to go crazy with the novelty of them!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought -
Drazhar now looks pretty good, looking at the FAQ it appears he could go into combat, or be charged and accept the challenge from the enemy character.... and then leave? Leaving the other character stuck out of combat for that round?
You could then jump into the main fight and mangle up the infantry while they have no back up from their character?
That's pretty nasty if we could do it... I like it!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/02 13:40:00
Partial Army List:
Farseer + fortune + Runes of Witnessing
Archon + Shadowfield + <equipment>
Wyches x 10ish
Approx 300-350 points depending on kit
Tactic:
Archon stands at the front.
Farseer casts fortune.
Mock enemies that try to cause wounds on your 2++ rerollable
I can do this, right?
sure, you can. but that is a very expensive unit. The enemy could just manuver so the archon is no longer the closest model and then rape the wyches. Or he could charge in, challenge your archon with a sergeant, and then rape the wyches. You lose combat and run, he cuts you down.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AngelGrinder wrote:One to watch out for with our squishy non-combat Haemonculus -
Long story short, weak HQ's - don't accept the challenge, or start equipping them to be a bit scary in CC!
The hexrifle was awesome though, first turn, rolled a 6 and killed the enemy sniper mwahaha.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought -
Drazhar now looks pretty good, looking at the FAQ it appears he could go into combat, or be charged and accept the challenge from the enemy character.... and then leave? Leaving the other character stuck out of combat for that round?
You could then jump into the main fight and mangle up the infantry while they have no back up from their character?
That's pretty nasty if we could do it... I like it!
Can a talos make challenges. Can he challenge the powerfist sergeant?
Hexrifle haemi's are great in or near pathfinders. They confer night vision to the pathfinders, while the finders give him +2 cover save
I think Drazhar can do that, but it is so poorly worded.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mynamelegend wrote:
Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting.
But hey, all is not lost! Imperial Guard won't bring Hydras anymore because someone at GW decided not to bother with giving them Interceptor when they errata'd in Skyfire. While they still tear asunder those fast skimmers like nobody's business, they can't do crud against ground targets, so don't expect anybody with a brain to field them outside of tailored lists.
Beastmasters did get a nerf there, but now the ignore terrain and move faster. The baron now makes sense to take with them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/02 14:38:19
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Oh yeah! Those wyches, mandrakes, Incubi, Fleet, Combat Drugs, open-topped transports, Agonizers, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques all just scream shooty army to me. Don't know why anyone ever even considered they might be meant for CC!
In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.
In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos.
Can a talos make challenges. Can he challenge the powerfist sergeant?
Hexrifle haemi's are great in or near pathfinders. They confer night vision to the pathfinders, while the finders give him +2 cover save
I think Drazhar can do that, but it is so poorly worded.
Unfortunately Talos and Cronos are only MCs not characters, otherwise being able to challenge or deny the powerfist would make them a lot more suvrvivable.
See I'm still not big on wyches or bloodbrides at all. I used to run one of them as a counter-charge tactic to protect my warriors. Now I feel like they are pretty much worthless since they will get shot up pretty badly. At least they did in my playtest games. Now some things did get worse some didn't.
The Pros:
Spoiler:
Allies. I cannot express how happy I am that I can take eldar allies. A cheap farseer with runes, fortune, and doom (or Eldrad) is really nasty when a fortuned shadowfield is up front. Pathfinders fulfill a role that until now you had to buy a cheap squad of wracks for and hope you didn't get KP...camping a home obj. Being battle brothers lets them take that objective and lay down some nasty fire with 6s being AP 1 AND being able to allocate wounds yourself.
Jetbikes. Skilled riders made them very nasty and now I understand why they didn't have the 4+ armor when the new book came out. That plus the fact that you can go 48" (12" mv 36" turbo) + 2d6" a turn! Yikes bladevanes say hello! Then not to mention against a weak unit hammer can make or break them in assault.
Beasts. Maybe not better but less of a hit by comparison. Not having to roll when going through terrain is a huge plus, not to mention razorwings being able to ignore armor.
Voidraven and Razorwing. While through most if not all of 5th these to a backseat to the Ravager. Now I think that a Voidraven is one of the more nasty units in the game. Being able to drop the mine with insane accuracy now is nice. Normally I wouldn't take missiles on it but now I would. Basically when I come on I don't worry about the mine or the void lances unless the enemy has some non-hover mode flyers in the air. I try to wreck a scary units transport and then unload with something like implosion missiles. Firing all 4 (my only weapons that turn) to make that unit go away. Razorwings are a cheaper unit that will try to focus on those enemy flyers to protect my bomber...sounds familiar somehow.
Haywire. Wow this went from a suppressive weapon to an outright offensive weapon. Either in blaster or grenade form I am in love with these. Almost every hit will do something to the hull points so with some concentrated fire (which we should be doing anyway) then vehicles will go and then let the splinter weapons fire. Wyches can run them up to the vehicle (assuming it isn't a transport) and make double sure it is dead.
Splinter Racks. Being able to overwatch from an open topped vehicle is amzing with racks. The rerolls are nice and can save you from a very painful PF. I am starting to like raider spam again over venoms...ok maybe a balanced approach.
Scourges. OMG these guys are nuts. With a 12" move and a 24" range haywire blaster and taking 2 in a 5 man squad and 4 in a 10 these guys will be vehicle hunters extrodinare.
Cons:
Spoiler:
Assault. Most of DE assault is gone. Unfortunately this is HQs, most elites, and half of the troops. Now I'm not saying that it will be impossible, just not competative or even fun for that matter. Sure a dedicated CC army might be able to work through some squads but in the end I think they will run out of "juice" to finish the job. WWP assault is gone but bring heat lances up will still be viable. Incubi against non-PW units that were doomed will be nuts.
Venoms more than Raiders. With only 2 hull points venoms will go down quickly. While on the topic vehicles having a WS in general is so idiotic of an idea that I am outraged. The fact that my venom that went flat out zooming across the battlefield is hit, in CC, as easily as a LR that barely moved is just wrong!
Push:
Spoiler:
Flickerfields. While I'm not giving them up on things like flyers I don't think they are a must take on raiders. The only reason I like them on flyers is that I don't have to jink and thus not snap fire next turn. Being safer in CC is also nice.
Venomspam. I think in the long run it may die off some but the sheer number of targets will have a lot of weight beind them.
Shooting. I don't think out shooting really gained or benefited at all here, we were already good and we still are, now I wouldn't try to outshoot tau or IG but shooty crons could be in trouble.
d3m01iti0n wrote:
BT uses the Codex Astartes as toilet paper. They’re an Imp Fist successor, recruit from multiple planets, and are known to be the largest Chapter in the galaxy. They’re on a constant Crusade, keeping it real for the Emperor and not bumming around like the other guys. They hate psykers and can’t ally with them. They’re basically an entire chapter of Chaplains. CC lunatics. What every Space Marine should aspire to be, if not trapped in a Matt Ward nightmare.
Mmmm I'm almost thinking a farseer and a couple pathfinder squads may be a great choice to supplement my dark eldar wych army now.... Pathfinders pick off the squad leaders (I.e. wg in termi armor), so my hekagonizer can go to work on the unit. Mmmm... And the farseer gives blanket psyker protection, and can do some funky shenanigans (mindwar got MUCH better guys)
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Oh yeah! Those wyches, mandrakes, Incubi, Fleet, Combat Drugs, open-topped transports, Agonizers, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques all just scream shooty army to me. Don't know why anyone ever even considered they might be meant for CC!
Don't forget the Hellions, bladed bikes, points and blades EVERYWHERE.... not assaulty at all
Out of 36 units (including the apoc ones), 9 are vehicles, 5 of which can take 2 forms CC ability (of the 4 that can't, one's the Dais and 3 are flyers.), and only 3 (Kabalite Warriors, Trueborn and Scourges) can be called 'dedicated shooting' units and even then they can be kitted out as assaulty units
So that leaves 24 units that are dedicated assault units (some with some shooty ability.)
We're so damn shooty! xD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/02 15:21:48
It seems to me that in order to retain an assulty army centered around wyches you have to take a hiemy in each squad and then seperate, leaving his pain token with the wyches and use him to charge first, sacrificing himself so they cant overwatch the wyches.
the other option would be to keep him with the wyches and put him in front. the benefit would be that he would have the fnp and still have to take hits till he died, but if the enemy has enough shooting they may be able to kill him and spill over onto the wyches.
i would use the second option mostly i think, but the first option would be good against units that have a TON of firepower and you know they would spill over into the wyches. seems like the best possible tactic to me because your not gonna lose the token and with the changes to fleet it doesnt matter as much to keep the hemonculus with you than it would to leave him back in the raider.
5000+ pts. 
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
