Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With regards to customer service:

Tre has fantastic customer service. I had an order delayed by a few weeks in the middle of the kickstarter fulfillment madness, sent him an email to ask about it and he doubled it and sent it out post haste.

I was thinking of Fearless Hvitarnor (4th pic from the top), Yvander Halfblood (2nd pic from the bottom), and Sverreulf the Red-Handed (bottom pic). The last one doesn't look like he'd fit on a smaller base, but now that I look at the other two they might.

The most important thing to me is the scale, which your pics compare very well, so thanks for that link

Edit: Here's that link with scipio's size comparisons, since the page rolled over:
http://azazelx.wordpress.com/2011/08/20/red-box-games-size-comparisons-with-gw-lord-of-the-rings-figures/

No worries. I've also had nothing but great CS from Tre' myself. I just thought in fairness that I should verify the thing about smaller bases that the other poster mentioned.

I can also see how he could easily be disappointed if he didn't already know that RBG figures are smaller than the GW-norm. I've felt the same way with some of both Raging Heroes and Mantic's stuff that otherwise look to be sculpted to fir right in with GW figures..

I ordered a giant pile of goblins from Tre during his sale, and they came on smaller round bases (like 20mm round). So yeah, they are smaller (but I was expecting that). The warp-crazed goblin dudes that I got came on 25mm rounds, but they're much bigger and scale with Warhammer goblins (but without giant hydrocephalic GW heads). Additionally, after I made the order, I emailed him asking if I could add one figure I forgot to order and I could paypal him the few dollars but he just threw it in for free. I've made multiple orders from him and they've always been shipped quickly, well packed, and the casts have been the highest quality. He's one of my favorite sculptors on the planet and has been always very personable on his forums and emails. Just my two cents

I actually like the smaller "to scale" size of the miniatures. Having a bunch of Rackham and Mantic miniatures, it really does make it easier to get them to fit in.

I am past buying from GW, and don't really miss the ginormous proportions to be honest. Just sad I couldn't get in on this kickstarter.

The most interesting in this discussion is weather or not any returns are accepted. I don't think that Tre would refuse customers to return their items, and I really hope that it isn't like that. I am quite certain that one got the right to change ones mind and return the product within 14 days after you received the item, and that the company must refund the money in total (with packing and shipping cost to you included). I am also quite certain that an online company cannot create his own refund policies that would limit these "14 days return policy" unless it is to the benefit of the customer (like 21 days return policy, for example, is alright while 7 days isn't). However, I might be refering to outdated sources.

Well, on that I can't say, as I've not been involved in the dispute in question. I do know that distance selling regulations/laws differ from country to country, and possibly from state to state in some places.

I can't comment on whether Tre takes returns although he's always seemed reasonable to me

(but why would you want to return such cool stuff, LOL?)

but I can say the UK legislation means online retailers here have to offer refund for good for 7 days (they can't charge a restocking fee, but if they get their T&C right can make you pay return shipping)

so it's clearly different rules for different countries for this

Dodicula, are you trying to return your KS pledge? Because I'll buy it if you don't want it. Message me with details of what you got, etc.

Ok I did refuse Dodicula's return request.

I wish I could find his original email. I am certain that I have it.

The reason that I refused the return was because he stated the reason for his dissatisfaction was that I lied about the scale / size of the figures or that I purposefully hid the details from him or that I went out of my way to make it seem like the figures are larger on the web site than they are in real life and that the figrues did not fit with his GW figures..

I did not do any of this. I listed the figures as 28mm scale in the web store discription and pictured them on 20 mm bases. I have NEVER lied to anyone about the scale of my figures. Anyone who messages me about this I give them the same response regarding scale / size. Which is as follows;

All measurements are based on full standing ( both feet together back straight ) armatures measured from the bottom of the feet to tthe top of the skull.

Humans .................... 32 to 34mm

Elves ..................... 29 to 31mm

Dwarves ................... 22 to 25mm

Gnomes..................... 15 to 20mm

Goblins ................... 15 to 25mm

Trolls..................... 45 to 50mm

giants .................... 35 to 55mm

The proportions on RBG figures is modeled MUCH closer to what you would expect to see on a real person shrunk down to 32 mm tall than what is typically considered the " norm " in " heroic " 28 mm figures. So with RBG figures a dwarf does NOT look like it would out weigh a human of similar character and Elves do not look like humans with pointy ears. All races are very clearly identifiable by height and build. and their heads, hands and feet are proportionate to the standard human scale.

The undead are built of human scaled armatures but are sculpted to appear dead..... so they are emaciated and awkwardly posed. This reduces the overall percieved " scale " of the figures but they are indeed 32 mm tall before being posed. Which typically puts their eyes at 28 mm level, hence the traditionally accepted discriptive criteria of " 28 " mm scale.


This discribes " 28" mm scale as much as any other company's idea does only in the case of my company I am consistent from figure to figure and I do nto obfuscate the issue with tags like " Heroic".

Furthermore I DO NOT MAKE GW PROXIES I make Red Box Games figures. I do not advertise that my figures are intended to mix with GW WHFB or Reaper or any other range, it has never been my intent to do so nor do I make any such implication. Further I think it is clear that my figures won't fit with GW's heroic scale just by looking at them. The proportions are noticably different.

Had there been some defect in the quality of the figures or damages in shipping ( that were obviously from a mishandled shipment and not just user destruction ) I would have returned the figures. Things being what they were he was accusing me of false advertising and malicious conduct and then threatened to make every effort he could to damage my reputation and my business if I did not acquiesce. At that point I felt like accepting the return was an admission of guilt and I had no way of knowing whether or not I would even get the figures back in the mail anyway. I try my best to make sure my customers are as satisfied as possible and feel as fairly dealt with as possible. I appreciate every single sale I make and I think of every customer as a friend.

I tried to smooth things over as best I could but what could I really do? It was a fairly large order, I think he ordered 9 sets of undead and the Keeper.

If I returned figures simply because they do not fit with GW or Reaper ( which I think is very obvious from the images on the website anyway ) then I might as well shut up shop and go to work for either one because I will NEVER know if any given order will be a final sale or not.

I've not had an issue with the communication from Tre.

If Dodicula is interested in getting rid of them, I'll take undead or wolves if they have them.

PM me for discussion.



Edited for clearity

I got my KS zombie minis in yesterday and they look great.

The miniatures are scaled to normal human proportions which makes them look very undersized if stood next to GW stuff, simular to how the Inifinity minatures are scaled. I love having stuff that isn't giant overblown apes with hamfists (GW). I think the realistic proportions add to the pieces but I suppose I could see why somebody might get a bit of shock and think things are out of scale, especially if their only reference is through GW tinted glasses.

I took one of the more upright zombies and stood him next to a Cadian and they are the same height, but about a 1/3rd of his mass as it's realistic in build and also meant to be gaunt and almost skeletal in appearance. Most of them are in very hunched over poses so they look a bit shorter than if they were fully upright.







In terms of sculpting they are top notch, the casts overall are very good. There were a couple small bubbles and a couple of the tiny spikes weren't fully formed, all of which will be repairable and no major details were lost.

I've had simular instances with resin I've worked with if I didn't dust the molds with Talc. I know that these are a plastic base so I'm not sure where the process differs but it might be that there's some bubbles not fully dispersing due to surface tension in the molds or if maybe the spincaster wasn't up to full speed. Not bashing anything here, just offering my observation on the technical side.

You may want to move up the next size up on the baggies, they were packed pretty tightly together which can be rough on the smaller spikey bits. I get a mix of bead baggies at Micheals craft store or Hobby Lobby.

I'm very happy with the minis and they'lll be great to paint up.

Agreed- dodicula, I think you'll find quite a few buyers. If you got them through the KS at less than retail, you can probably recoup your entire investment either here or on Bartertown.

It helps to ask nicely when asking for a refund or exchange... I asked for an exchange of some Brushfire models (not a refund) and On The Lamb cane through in spades. But if I'd threatened them etc... it probably would've been different.

Anyway, good to hear both sides, at least!

OK Tre,
I've been a supporter of you for some time, but in fairness I do think there are things you could do better here.

I've never seen 20mm round bases before I ordered from you (or anywhere else since) and they do in fact make the figures seem larger than they actually are. The closest would be the ones that came with 2nd Edition Blood Bowl that had the coloured rings fit around them to denote player position.

On your current RBG webpage, the scaling information is not on the homepage, nor is it on the ABOUT or NEWS pages, or anywhere else that's clearly obvious to a new customer or someone who doesn't know the size of your figures. I think it's actually a fairer assumption for new customers that your stuff will scale to GW and Reaper than to your own internal RBG scale. Proportion doesn't matter in this discussion. What's obvious to you, the artist who works with this stuff every day is actually NOT AT ALL OBVIOUS to someone looking at pictures on the web.

I'll use three examples here -
1) Rackham's stuff always has/had much finer proportions than GW, yet their figures were actually bigger.
2) Tre' Manor's work for Reaper miniatures always fit Reaper's scale. Why would someone buying Tre's work from one source expect his figures from another to be scaled significantly differently?
3) Not all of GW's work fits the "plastic Cadian proportion" mentality. Not by a long shot. They have a huge range and a lot of quite finely sculpted/proportioned figures amongst them...




Let's be honest. There's nothing at all here that even implies that this figure wouldn't fit perfectly into a GW High Elf Army. Proportion, hat size, base size.. none of that comes into it in the slightest.
http://red-box-games.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=38

(that was a random example - first thing I clicked on from the sidebar)

The Keeper also looks like he would easily be GW-sized, or a bit larger - just wiry. The image looks like he could easily be twice the bulk of the actual figure (I have the figure, already knew about your scale from having read it, and *I* was surprised how tiny the actual figure was when I got it in hand - I honestly expected it to be a lot larger, despite knowing it would not be GW sized..) Call it the double-edged sword of your having the talent to sculpt so finely.
http://red-box-games.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25&products_id=65



I don't know the distance selling regulation laws for Tre's state, but I would suggest it worthwhile for Tre to look them up and be sure that he complies with them. As grefven said, making up your own policies and deciding that they trump the local law is probably not the best move ever. Like those "NO REFUNDS" signs (and policies) in shops that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

All of that information you wrote on height needs to be on the website. Probably on the ABOUT page. I personally couldn't find it anywhere, and I looked for a couple of minutes, which is a couple of minutes longer than the average customer will look. Don't assume anything about what your customers (or potential customers) "should" know or be "obvious". Your new Helsvakt range from the KS in particular look like they'd make great figures to mix into a Chaos Warrior force - except of course, they won't. You need to be much more obvious about the scaling issue, or very shortly you'll have a lot more new unhappy customers like Dodicula - drawn in by the excellently-sculpted Halsvakt to use in Chaos Armies. You probably need a "these figures ae not scaled to work with Reaper/GW" upfront on the homepage, to be quite frank. Bolognesus' suggestion of posting pictures with a ruler next to them a la Reaper is also an excellent one, that could save you many hassles and headaches down the road.

I agree with scipio. Though I am perfectly happy with my RBG purchases, I had investigated the scale carefully beforehand. If I had been expecting "GW Scale" minis, I would have gotten unpleasant surprise with my first purchases that might have made me a little disappointed with RBG through no real fault of Tre's.

I think advertising clearly is always a good idea to prevent disappointment like this.

It really is amazing how fine the detail on the miniatures is though, that's why it "looks" like a larger scale. Compared to GW LOTR the detail is amazing and the amount of "character" the minis have is great.

Best of luck getting a buyer for those minis Dodicula and best of luck with the rest of the KS campaign Tre.

A number of the minis on the site do say something along the lines of:

"figure stands precisely 30mm tall."

or

"Miniature supplied with 20mm round base"

I find RBG Aenglish match up nicely with Rakham cadwallon figures.

I must say Tre's Zombie looks much better then the zombicide zombie. Can't wait to get mine.

Yeah, the zombies look absolutely awesome in the plastics! I love mine in metal, but goddamn I can't wait for my KS stuff to arrive!

Sort of crap photos, but tre's stuff looks fine next to reaper's RPG stuff:



And looks fine based on 25mm instead of 20mm rounds:





But I use it all for pathfinder, so, scale doesn't bother me much.

I've never been concerned about RBG minis's scale. The minis are very well proportioned in their own scale, and I think they don't look much different than any other realistic 28mm minis. I had never used round 20mm bases, and they might cause an visual effect on the scale, but the minis are just fine.

 paulson games wrote:

Wow, I missed this pic (I think we simul-posted). The RBG zombie looks great!

 RiTides wrote:
Wow, I missed this pic (I think we simul-posted). The RBG zombie looks great!

I ninja edited

Some hastily inked aenglish next to an imperial guardsmen and a reaper sword lady.

Yep, some are larger and smaller than others. Not really the point that both Dodicula and Tre were making, though.

To derail this thread and get back to the Kickstarter for a moment - does anyone know what's been sent out at this stage? It seems that orders containing the warhorses and also the Krigare are the ones that haven't been sent out? It that correct? Possibly the wolves?

Yeah, I'd love to hear an update on that from Tre. It sounded like Ed sent him the horses just before the holidays, but I haven't heard anything about them / confirmation of that / pics from Tre?

With everyone talking about the bases I'd like to derail slightly...I've been looking for 20mm round plastic bases for a while...anyone know where to find them?

This is a posts from Tre on the RB forum (28/12/12)

"I got another 2 boxes on Christmas Eve!!! I have nto had time to really QC yet but thus far it all looks really great! I now have Svetlana, Morgrimn A +B, the Hordesmen, Red Olga, and Blutulf which means there are a LOT more orders that can be shipped now! I am VERY sorry that this is taking as long as it has but this is the nature of the beast. Production issues arise at every link int he chain and they just take time to power through. I assure yo uall though that we are all workign very hard to make this happen as quickly and properly as possible."

and part of a post from the KS comments from about the same date

"Thus far I have shipped more than 100 packages. The numbers are what they are. The reason I have run out of the hordesmen is because Ed only had so many cast when he shipped the last package and I asked him to go ahead and ship what he had so I could start filling orders."

so I think while the horse masters are done (maybe approved by Tre too ?) the casts probably haven't got to him yet

bbb You can buy them from me if you want. I had to order a HUGE amount for the undead and I doutb I will go through what I have very quickly. PM me and we can work somethign out.

As for what has been shipped ont he KS thus far;

The Varp are still on hold as one of the models had a pretty bad defect on every single casting. The cloak that flies out from the left side of one of the waiting from was too thin and thusly the fur texture on the back was nto as sharp as it needed to be ( almost flattened out entirely ). Ed infroms me that that mould has been remade adn the figure si beign cast up right now. so those should be going out very very soon.

The Wolves are waiting on the bases. I need to touch base with ED on that.

Beyond that I am still awaiting delivery on Conradt's Warp Form, and his weapon sprue, Yrsa and Fenris, Ulbrecht, Guarthagust, and all of the horsemen.

Ed informs me that the only molds left to be completed are the molds for 3 of the horses, and the heads for the horsemen. Everythign else is just in casting so it really should not be much further yet.

as for returns....... well I admit I do need to post the policy and I will do so. I do not see how I can operate my business on an open ended return policy though as the funds from any transaction will always be tied up waiting for the return period to expire ( that si of course if there IS a definite period. ). I ain't walmart!

Well then tell Ed to hurry up with those horses!

TFM's Ed wrote:Hey everyone real quick, we just got our 3rd spin caster today and now 2 here and one elsewhere for now. Me and Brian will be casting soon together to knock out a few jobs faster then give me a bit more sculpting time and hopefully Jan. leads to us moving into the shop with 3 spin casters and a 4th in line to go and we really begin pumping out stuff. If all goes according to my plan everyone will be getting things early from this point on but it's still a lot of work to get all this in place as a manager yet still be a major producer. Thanks again and excited to show you some stuff in Jan. OUR STUFF!

from the TFM KS comments page. Seems like he's expanding production capacity significantly - this might be caught up in the maelstrom that's causing a little but there's light at the end of the tunnel for all you guys who did back this project (//kicks self again).