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MarkyMark wrote:
Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.

So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game

Why not? The seeker is a laser guided missile, going for a target with a laser already on it, that Snap Shot, and hit, the flyer.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
Codex says it hits at BS5 in all regards so, Markerlight hits unit, Seeker fires at unit, in all regards it hits on a 2+ regardless of what the unit type is.

That's not what the Codex says - please don't misrepresent it.

I won't misrepresent it, I will quote directly from it:

A Markerlight can be used to "allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit*. This shooting is resolved NORMALLY IN ALL REGARDS at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"

*A flyer in this case

Codex is on my lap and I just typed what I read, excuse the capital letters, I don't mean to come accross as rude, they are just to make the point.

Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.

Please stop with the "Skyfire does nothing." No one is challenging Skyfire and should not be part of this discussion.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??

No, Skyfire has an explicit exception. Do Seeker Missiles?

rigeld2 wrote:
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.

That's not what it says at all.

40k-noob wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.

Please stop with the "Skyfire does nothing." No one is challenging Skyfire and should not be part of this discussion.

Also again, if you are insisting it is BS5 then it is NOT a snapshot it is a normal shooting attack.

You keep quoting the Codex but it was written before Flyers were in the Game and the most recent FAQ has already made it clear a "snapshot" is always BS1.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??

No, Skyfire has an explicit exception. Do Seeker Missiles?

Yes, as in all regards they shoot at the unit that is marked at BS5.

rigeld2 wrote:
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.

That's not what it says at all.

So what does it say? I know it doesn't say "in all regards apart from if it is firing at flyers or snap shooting".

Mega_Nob wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.

So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game

Codex trumps rules, codex says the seeker fires at a unit which has been hit with a markerlight with BS5 in all regards. That unit could be a tank, a flyer or a warlord, it still fires with BS5, in all regards.

Still not exactly code FAQ trumps rule book faq, at a stretch maybe but thats a assumption.

40k-noob wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".

How do you normally shoot at Flyers?

I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.

Please stop with the "Skyfire does nothing." No one is challenging Skyfire and should not be part of this discussion.

Also again, if you are insisting it is BS5 then it is NOT a snapshot it is a normal shooting attack.

You keep quoting the Codex but it was written before Flyers were in the Game and the most recent FAQ has already made it clear a "snapshot" is always BS1.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Uhuh, then the Tau FAQ kicks in, if a vehicle is reduced to BS1 (as that's what snap shots do, BRB p13), does the seeker fire at BS1 or BS5? BS5

Regardless of whether the Codex was written before flyers or not, I can't imagine it was written without flyers in mind. I'm pretty sure GW would have insider info and known that flyers were going to be implemented into the rules. But that's all just speculation, the codex says "a unit hit with a markerlight" The unit in this case is a flyer.

Logically it makes sense that a seeker missile will hit with a 5. The snapfire part is handled by the markerlight having to generate a hit with a snapfire shot. The logic of a target designated shot being good to go makes sense.

However we are talking GW and rules lawyers. So it probably can't.

As I have stated two times before - it really doesn't matter. I will allow any tau to hit on a 5 because it is so inefficient point cost wise. You need 6 markerlights to generate 1 snapfire hit - minumum cost is 72 points for pathfinders without their devilfish. Then another 10 points to generate an 83% chance to hit. Then a 50 to 67% chance to penetrate. Then an 16% chance to destroy it.... 82 points to generate a little better than an 8% chance to kill a flyer.
A broadside for 70 points. 29% chance to hit for 83% chance to pen for a 50% chance to kill. That is a 12% chance to kill.
Bottomline, I can darn near have 3 broadsides for the cost of a pathfinder + devilfish + seeker missile and I have a 50% better chance of killing a flyer and 3 shots at it instead!!!

How could the Rulebook FAQ not be trumped by a Codex FAQ? Especially when you consider that the Codex trumps the Rulebook. The FAQ is answering questions pertaining to the book that supersedes the rulebook, making Codex FAQ's higher on the pecking order over Rulebook FAQ's. Now if they remove or alter the Tau Empire FAQ entry to no longer be able to hit fliers, it becomes a different story. As it stands, now, Seeker missiles hit fliers on a 2+.


@ above poster: Pretty much everything(with rare exceptions) in the Tau Empire codex is overpriced, or underpowered, whichever way you want to look at it. Those railguns might be needed elsewhere so the added option is needed, not necessarily the best, or most cost efficient.

Mega_Nob wrote:
So what does it say? I know it doesn't say "in all regards apart from if it is firing at flyers or snap shooting".

"This shooting is resolved NORMALLY IN ALL REGARDS at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"
I bolded the important word you're ignoring.

Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.

What he said!!

I was going to write the same thing myself. The shot is resolved normally at BS5 as snap shots are not normal shots.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.

What he said!!

I was going to write the same thing myself. The shot is resolved normally at BS5 as snap shots are not normal shots.

Then you cannot hit a Flyer per the Flyer FAQ. You have no exception to the requirement of Snap Shotting (like Skyfire, Vector Strikes, etc have) and therefore do not meet the rules required to hit a Flyer.
You can resolve it normally - but cannot hit a Flyer without making a Snap Shot.

You're going to say "It's a conflict and Codex > BRB!!one"
No - there's no conflict. BRB requires Snap Shot. Codex does not specify that it does not require Snap Shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.

What he said!!

I was going to write the same thing myself. The shot is resolved normally at BS5 as snap shots are not normal shots.

Then you cannot hit a Flyer per the Flyer FAQ. You have no exception to the requirement of Snap Shotting (like Skyfire, Vector Strikes, etc have) and therefore do not meet the rules required to hit a Flyer.
You can resolve it normally - but cannot hit a Flyer without making a Snap Shot.

You're going to say "It's a conflict and Codex > BRB!!one"
No - there's no conflict. BRB requires Snap Shot. Codex does not specify that it does not require Snap Shot.

This 100% this.
After talking/hashing it out and looking at all the outcomes.

What about the argument that it is a snapshot, as the snapshot rule has taken effect, but is at BS5, due to the seeker missile FAQ. Similarly to how an instant death wound is still an instant death wound against an EW model.

For the other side can anyone answer whether the parallel to the signum, another set modifier specifically mentioned in the flier FAQ, which is not allowed to hit fliers is relevant. It seems to be.

Drager wrote:
What about the argument that it is a snapshot, as the snapshot rule has taken effect, but is at BS5, due to the seeker missile FAQ. Similarly to how an instant death wound is still an instant death wound against an EW model.

For the other side can anyone answer whether the parallel to the signum, another set modifier specifically mentioned in the flier FAQ, which is not allowed to hit fliers is relevant. It seems to be.

Resolved as snap shot
vs
Fired as snap shot

Rules for difference between resolved as and fired as?

When you resolve as a snapshot you follow the snapshot rule, which then sets the bs to 1. Why is this not covered by the Tau FAQ? Please don't just assert that resolved as a snapshot means you need a 6, support that assertion. Haven't found anyone who has yet.

I am, in this debate a fence sitter, so help me make up, rather than change my mind :]

 megatrons2nd wrote:


@ above poster: Pretty much everything(with rare exceptions) in the Tau Empire codex is overpriced, or underpowered, whichever way you want to look at it. Those railguns might be needed elsewhere so the added option is needed, not necessarily the best, or most cost efficient.

Given that fact, I will chose to field an extra unit of broadsides before I would worry about markerlight/seeker missiles. And given the relative crappy chance of a favorable end result I would fire any broadsides at the flyer and have the seeker missile target the vehicle unless it is an AV14.

Continue to argue for what - I will agree- makes sense, a snapfired markerlight hit fulfills the snapfire requirement and then the seeker missile should get a chance to hit at 5+. I am just saying GO FOR IT. With an overpriced/underpowered codex, if you want to field markerlights and seeker missiles to cover for your anti-air. You are doing an auto-lose choice. Personnally I will field 3 units of 2 broadsides and not look back whether my seekers can hit at BS1 or BS5.

My problem - as the codex has aged - is the cost of markerlights is ludicrous. Markerlights and crisis suits are the things that make the Tau different and interesting... But I am not about to pay 120 points for a squad to add 20 points to get one guy with a markerlight to fire a 10 point one-shot missile that I need - at minimum- a 65 point vehicle to mount on... Markerlights need to be cheaper and more useful to give the tau their flavor.

Right but iirc theres a faq that states markerlights cant be used to bypass the snapfire rule.

Lungpickle wrote:
Right but iirc theres a faq that states markerlights cant be used to bypass the snapfire rule.

you are correct.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

So the BS1 can not ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Right but iirc theres a faq that states markerlights cant be used to bypass the snapfire rule.

you are correct.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

So the BS1 can not ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack.

That FAQ is irrelevant considering the fact that a Markerlight doesn't affect the BS of a seeker missile, it just enables it to fire. Nothing to do with it's BS.

So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?

If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.

The rulebooks FAQ says there is nothing that can increase a ballistic skill of a snapshot

 DeathReaper wrote:
So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?

If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.

The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?

If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.

The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.

So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?

Remember "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"

How do you normally hit a Zooming Flyer if your BS is 5?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?

If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.

The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.

So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?

You keep harping on this, is not possible that Seeker are an exception?

Also, in the sense that FAQ <- Codex <- BRB; Snap Shots reduce BS to 1,after all of the math to modify your BS, a Snap Shot sets it to 1. The Seeker Missile on the other hand always 'hits' on 2+ (BS 5), the Tau FAQ shows this. No matter what your final BS is, it is set to 5 for the purpose of seeing if the Missile hits. That fits the FAQ <- Codex <- BRB rule in the BRB.

FenixZero wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?

If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.

The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.

So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?

You keep harping on this, is not possible that Seeker are an exception?

No, because the seekers do not say they are an exception.

Vector strike has a specific exception to that, as does the Skyfire rule. Seekers do not have a specific exception.