Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Would this be resolved if a Tau FAQ awarded the sky fire trait to seekers?

paidinfull wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I can't follow this logic at all.

How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.

There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.

Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.

You forgot an important part.

How do you hit a zooming flyer? Skyfire or SNAPSHOTS
Are Seeker Missiles SNAPSHOTS or Skyfire? No, they are not.

I outlined quite clearly the flaw in your Snap Shot logic.
Seeker Missiles "may always fire" provided you meet the initial criteria of expending a Marker light token.

The FAQ outlines that you cannot fire a Seeker Missile on Overwatch, however. This is obvious because the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile not the unit. Who gets Overwatch? The unit. Not the vehicle, hence why Seeker Missiles cannot be fired on Overwatch.

If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.

As for your Overwatch point, show anywhere in any game where you as unit being charged still have a Markerlight token on the charging unit and I will grant you that seeker missile shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doktor_g wrote:
Would this be resolved if a Tau FAQ awarded the sky fire trait to seekers?

yes

 DeathReaper wrote:
Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.

It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.

Please understand the difference.

But Seeker missiles are still unaffected by Snap Shots. Provide an quote that specifies that the Seeker missiles are affected by snap shots. The FAQ clearly provides guidance that they bypass the rule, and you keep trying to force the rule on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a unit can still fire a markerlight on overwatch, if it hits then it gets a markerlight token. That's how you'd get a marker token on a charging unit.

paidinfull wrote:
[

rigeld2 wrote:

Normally that's true - you did leave out the word "normally" in your rules quote by the way. It has been proven, and you've quoted proof, where a Snap Shot is not a normal case.

What you miss here, is that the circumstances are already "not normal". The expenditure of a Markerlight token has changed that so your point is incorrect. "It may always fire". The End. I've expended the token to meet the initial criteria after that I follow the process as outlined in the codex. You keep missing that key fact.

Erm. No? Cite where I've said you're unable to fire.
You're able to fire normally. Snap Shots are not normal, and therefore rules that apply normally do not always apply there.

So you can't provide a quote? Is that why you wrote this? Provide a rules quote that clearly outlines there is a difference between resolving a shot and shooting a shot. How do you come to a resolution of a Snap Shot, if you follow a process that is not the Snap Shot rule?

Also, stop avoiding the question and provide answer that outlines a rules quote from the BRB regarding the difference between "resolving by not taking action" and "taking an action"

The point I'm making by asking you to define the difference is that the rulebook does not always define everything - indeed it cannot.

I outlined quite clearly the flaw in your Snap Shot logic.
Seeker Missiles "may always fire" provided you meet the initial criteria of expending a Marker light token.

Blasts may always fire as well. Blasts are not permitted to hit (indeed - target) Fliers. Why is that? Because Fliers require a Snap Shot to be targetted/hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mega_Nob wrote:
Q2: Ok, what is that rule? A:It says you can only resolve shots at a zooming flyer as snap shots.

Remember to take into account the FAQ that says only Snap Shots may hit/target a Flyer.

Q6: But I'm firing with a Seeker missile, do I still have to do that? Ah, no you don't.

So then you're not making a Snap Shot?

Q11: Ah, so it is, so this backs up the codex where it says I fire my seeker at BS5 in all regards right? Yes, correct.

Please stop misquoting that rule.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.

It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.

Please understand the difference.

But Seeker missiles are still unaffected by Snap Shots. Provide an quote that specifies that the Seeker missiles are affected by snap shots. The FAQ clearly provides guidance that they bypass the rule, and you keep trying to force the rule on it.

"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).

There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).

Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.

40k-noob wrote:


If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.

Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say "It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired "at an assumed BS5".

Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.

40k-noob wrote:

As for your Overwatch point, show anywhere in any game where you as unit being charged still have a Markerlight token on the charging unit and I will grant you that seeker missile shot.

I wasn't asserting they get that shot, because they clearly don't. Simply illustrating how the mechanic worked.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.

It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.

Please understand the difference and note that I am correct.

You're right there is an exception there for Skyfire and I clearly missed that.

That being said, if you would walk us all through the process of "resolving" a Snap Shot.
I'd like to understand what you think this process is and where that is outlined in the rules.

paidinfull wrote:

40k-noob wrote:


If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.

Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say "It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired "at an assumed BS5".

Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.

Good, now what do you need to hit with a snap shot, is it anything but a 6?

No, then you hit on a 6 like everyone else that does not have a specific exception.

If you do not fire at BS1 you are not making a snap shot.

"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots."

Seeker missiles say "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"

You make the snap shot instead of shooting normally, so you are no longer BS 5

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).

There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).

Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.

Actually they do.

"then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

So Snap Shot reduces the models BS to 1 for the purpose of those shots, right?
All that is happening is the models BS is now 1 for the purposes of those shots, right?
The models is BS1 for those shots, right?
There is nothing about needing 6's, but rather that the BS is 1 right?

So that there is no confusion, in this case "the model" is "the vehicle" and "the vehicle's BS3 is now BS1"

If so, then the Seeker missile is very much granted a specific exception via FAQ.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Since the only thing Snap Shot does, is reduce models BS to 1, the vehicle is subject to this FAQ which does grant specific exception to the rule.

paidinfull wrote:

40k-noob wrote:


If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.

Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say "It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired "at an assumed BS5".

Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.

40k-noob wrote:

As for your Overwatch point, show anywhere in any game where you as unit being charged still have a Markerlight token on the charging unit and I will grant you that seeker missile shot.

I wasn't asserting they get that shot, because they clearly don't. Simply illustrating how the mechanic worked.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.

It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.

Please understand the difference and note that I am correct.

You're right there is an exception there for Skyfire and I clearly missed that.

That being said, if you would walk us all through the process of "resolving" a Snap Shot.
I'd like to understand what you think this process is and where that is outlined in the rules.

I second that!

paidinfull wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).

There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).

Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.

Actually they do.

"then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

So Snap Shot reduces the models BS to 1 for the purpose of those shots, right?

That is where you are incorrect, the Snap shot never reduces the models BS, it just counts it as 1. The model still has its BS of 5.

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:
For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.

No, it doesn't.

If they are force to attack at 'Initiative Step 1' then their Initiative is effectively 1, because they can't take any actions on their normal Initiative. Otherwise a person with Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword would be able to attack at both their normal Initiative and Initiative 1. This simply isn't the case. All of your attack happen at the same time, so your Initiative has to be modified (to 1) for that to happen.

False. A model with a Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword must choose which to attack with, per the rules - they cannot attack with both. Your initiative is not modified. Time's Arrow would be a much, MUCH better item if it was modified.

That is why I said that all of your attacks happen at the same time. Either all of your attacks are with your Power Sword at Int X or with the Thunder Hammer, at Int 1. Also in my original post (about this subject) I believe that I did say for combat only.

Unwieldy is to Combat what Snap Shots are to Shooting. If something is 'effectively' or 'resolved at' then that thing is, for all intents and purposes, that specific thing. So for Combat, with a Thunder Hammer you are Initiative 1 for when you make your attacks (and only that). For Shooting your BS is 1 when making a Snap Shot (Hard to Hit, Shaken/Stunned, or Overwatch) and only that.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.

The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.

I have no clue what Time's Arrow is, but I know that Hit and Run isn't an attack, but you requires an Initiative test to break out of combat, and a person with a Thunder Hammer (or any other Unwieldy Weapon) would take that test at their full Initiative.

Time's Arrow is a C'Tan power that forces an initiative test on a model in B2B. Your assertion that the initiative is modified would mean that the test fails on anything but a 1.

My assertion was specific, I believe, to Combat only. That is why I brought up that Unwieldy has no effect on Sweeping Advances.

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:

40k-noob wrote:


If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.

Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say "It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired "at an assumed BS5".

Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.

Good, now what do you need to hit with a snap shot, is it anything but a 6?

No, then you hit on a 6 like everyone else that does not have a specific exception.

If you do not fire at BS1 you are not making a snap shot.

"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots."

Seeker missiles say "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"

You make the snap shot instead of shooting normally, so you are no longer BS 5

Except that the model is not "hitting on 6's" the model "counts as BS1 for the purposes of those shots".

Your assertions in this case invalidate the FAQ and Seeker Missiles would not be able to fire if "Stunned/Shaken for example". Wait, what happens when a vehicle is stunned or shaken?
Let's turn to p74 of the BRB
Huh
Vehicle Damage Table...
Wonder what it says here?

1-2 Crew Shaken
The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn
3 Crew Stunned
The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn. The Vehicle cannot move unless it is a Zooming Flyer. If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer it instead can only move 18" and cannot turn.

WEIRD!
That's so weird!
You mean that when a vehicle suffers Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned that the vehicle is now only able to fire Snap Shots?! That Snap Shots reduce its ballistics skill to 1 and that there is an FAQ that completely allows the Seeker Missile to fire as a Snap Shot under those circumstances?!

THAT'S SO WEIRD!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).

There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).

Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.

Actually they do.

"then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

So Snap Shot reduces the models BS to 1 for the purpose of those shots, right?

That is where you are incorrect, the Snap shot never reduces the models BS, it just counts it as 1. The model still has its BS of 5.

Except that's wrong.

"Counts as" is an old argument. Are Nobs troops if you take a Warboss? Certainly seems like a case since the rulebook says "Count as Troops"

The vehicle's ballistic skill is reduced to 1.

The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.

WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.

THAT'S SO WEIRD!

FenixZero wrote:
That is why I said that all of your attacks happen at the same time. Either all of your attacks are with your Power Sword at Int X or with the Thunder Hammer, at Int 1. Also in my original post (about this subject) I believe that I did say for combat only.

Unwieldy is to Combat what Snap Shots are to Shooting. If something is 'effectively' or 'resolved at' then that thing is, for all intents and purposes, that specific thing. So for Combat, with a Thunder Hammer you are Initiative 1 for when you make your attacks (and only that). For Shooting your BS is 1 when making a Snap Shot (Hard to Hit, Shaken/Stunned, or Overwatch) and only that.

Here's your original post on the subject:

FenixZero wrote:
For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.

But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.

Nothing changes their initiative. Ever.

My assertion was specific, I believe, to Combat only. That is why I brought up that Unwieldy has no effect on Sweeping Advances.

And guess when Time's Arrow happens? "At the start of the Fight subphase, before blows are struck" - IE during combat.

My original statement that you disagreed with was:

So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.

Cite the rule that changes a models Initiative value.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.

WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.

THAT'S SO WEIRD!

Incorrect.
It is an example. Not all encompassing.
What happens when a vehicle suffers one of those results? It can only fire Snap Shots.
What happens when a vehicle can only fire Snap Shots? It's Ballistic Skill is reduce to 1.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Let's add the example back in.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

So what we know *for a fact* is that when a Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned it "is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1". What does that? Snap Shot actually, because that's what happens from the Damage Table

Quite obviously the vehicle is, in fact, being reduced to Ballistic Skill 1.

Since the Vehicle is being reduced to BS1, the FAQ kicks in. What Ballistic Skill does a Seeker missile Fire at when it's fired as a Snap Shot?

BS5

paidinfull wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.

WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.

THAT'S SO WEIRD!

Incorrect.
It is an example. Not all encompassing.
What happens when a vehicle suffers one of those results? It can only fire Snap Shots.
What happens when a vehicle can only fire Snap Shots? It's Ballistic Skill is reduce to 1.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Let's add the example back in.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

So what we know *for a fact* is that when a Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned it "is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1". What does that? Snap Shot actually, because that's what happens from the Damage Table

Quite obviously the vehicle is, in fact, being reduced to Ballistic Skill 1.

Since the Vehicle is being reduced to BS1, the FAQ kicks in. What Ballistic Skill does a Seeker missile Fire at when it's fired as a Snap Shot?

BS5

Yes, someone else who gets it!

Mega_Nob wrote:


Yes, someone else who gets it!

The seeker missile does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule.

Stop ignoring that fact.

It still fires as a snap shot, but it's using BS5 instead of BS1. Stop ignoring that.

paidinfull wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:


Yes, someone else who gets it!

And 30 Rock too. Bonus!!

paidinfull wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.

WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.

THAT'S SO WEIRD!

Incorrect.
It is an example. Not all encompassing.
What happens when a vehicle suffers one of those results? It can only fire Snap Shots.
What happens when a vehicle can only fire Snap Shots? It's Ballistic Skill is reduce to 1.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Let's add the example back in.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

So what we know *for a fact* is that when a Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned it "is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1". What does that? Snap Shot actually, because that's what happens from the Damage Table

Quite obviously the vehicle is, in fact, being reduced to Ballistic Skill 1.

Since the Vehicle is being reduced to BS1, the FAQ kicks in. What Ballistic Skill does a Seeker missile Fire at when it's fired as a Snap Shot?

BS5

Not quite, the vehicle is not firing the seeker missile as it is stated it has no control over them, hence why when shaken stunned etc does not affect it, simple. So when you come to fire a seeker missile at a flyer you follow the normal rules, which include hard to hit, which is a snap shot, a snap shot is not bs5 it is bs1, if you cannot snap shot, you cant shoot at flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
It still fires as a snap shot, but it's using BS5 instead of BS1. Stop ignoring that.

By definition bs5 is not a snap shot.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The seeker missile does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule.

Stop ignoring that fact.

OOh, what does HTH mean:

HTH = Resolve as a snap shot. (Go to the snap shot rule)

Shaken = Make snap shot. (Go to the snap shot rule)

Stunned = Make snap shot. (Go to the snap shot rule)

All of the above = Reduce your vehicles' BS to 1.

Does the seeker still fire at BS5? Yes it does.

the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The seeker missile does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule.

Stop ignoring that fact.

Wrong.

I know you can't admit you're wrong. It's hard I get that, but here are the facts.

Snap Shot reduces a model's ballistic skill to 1.
That's a fact.

We know that because of the Tau FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)

So straight from the horses mouth, when you are taking a Snap Shot you are actually reducing a model's Ballistic Skill to 1. The Seeker Missile is very much granted an exception to the Hard to Hit rule in the FAQ everyone has been quoting.

"Shots resovled at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" p 81 BRB
When you "resolve a Snap Shot" you turn to p13 of the BRB

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

The players resolve this by taking shots at a reduced ballistic skill. We know that the model's ballistic skill is being reduced because of this:

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)

While it doesn't explicitly state that we have to look up what Shaken & Stunned are. On the vehicle damage table it quite clearly states that "the vehicle can only fire Snap Shots".

From that we can easily see the relationship that when a model has to fire Snap Shots their "Ballistic Skill is being reduced to 1".

The Tau FAQ then grants a very specific exception and allows Seeker Missiles to fire at Flyers @ BS5.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

There is no question now that Seeker Missiles hit Flyers on 2+.

Now I realize it's hard for you to admit you're wrong. You want to save face because you just went on a 9page diatribe with a complete jerk (me). However, I don't think you're an idiot, so I know, that you know you are wrong. You don't have to admit it, just don't say anything.

To all those who want to try this absolutely stupid tactic of firing a seeker missile at a Flyer:
You can, and the shot is at BS5 per the FAQ.

So i can use bs5 on my devis using the signum, nope I cant, I can use telion voice of experince for bs5, nope I cant.

Both in codex surely by your way of thinking I can use them?

Do you know what? If somebody came up with a 100% rock solid argument saying it fires at BS1 I would hold my hands up and say "Ok, you got me, fair enough". But no matter how many 100% rock solid arguments I throw out, nobody will budge.

MarkyMark wrote:
So i can use bs5 on my devis using the signum, nope I cant, I can use telion voice of experince for bs5, nope I cant.

Both in codex surely by your way of thinking I can use them?

Sure, just cite the FAQ allowing it and your golden.

MarkyMark wrote:

Not quite, the vehicle is not firing the seeker missile as it is stated it has no control over them, hence why when shaken stunned etc does not affect it, simple. So when you come to fire a seeker missile at a flyer you follow the normal rules, which include hard to hit, which is a snap shot, a snap shot is not bs5 it is bs1, if you cannot snap shot, you cant shoot at flyers.

Wrong. The vehicle *IS* firing the missile.
I've addressed this more than 3x times now.

p 29 C:TE
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.

It very much works as I say it does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mega_Nob wrote:

And 30 Rock too. Bonus!!

Oh yea!

 Savageconvoy wrote:
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote

"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

MarkyMark wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote

"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

Unfortunately the FAQ quoted here...
Completely overrides that one.

Codex Specific > Rulebook Specific

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:


"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

Well this is an "out of the ordinary" situation.
The Codex also does explicitly state that the vehicle is firing it.

Here's the appropriate quote
p 29 C:TE
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.