Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hi all,

trying to wrap my head around terminators for a C:SM list. is a land raider a must-have for termies or is walking them across the board viable? is deep striking crazy talk? I rarely see anyone mention it with regards to terminators. are they better off parked on an objective or played aggressively? 5-man or 10-man units? worth bringing more than one unit in a sub-2k list? any favored tactics for use with them?

cheers,

v

you certainly can walk terminators across the board, but they will get shot to pieces, so you need to take more of them, and almost unanimously others will tell you that assault terminators are better than shooty terminators for the sole reason of: they are meant to do one thing, there is no confusing their role. and they have a 3+ invuln, which i cannot say how many times that has helped (terminators are usually met with a hail of plasma fire or other ap2 shenanigans.

food for thought:
8 assault terminators with TH/SS (or 7 and 2 captains in Artificer armor) in a Land Raider Crusader with a multimelta is one of the scariest units in the game: not a lot can deal with AV14, and the units that can are dedicated to destroying AV14 and usually have to get close to do it and tend not to survive getting counterattacked by 7 or 8 angry heavily armored men with powered sledgehammers...

First of all, never take C:SM terminators unless you already have allies that you can't live without. Now that allies exist DA deathwing terminators are far superior, and there's really no reason not to take them.

and they have a 3+ invuln, which i cannot say how many times that has helped (terminators are usually met with a hail of plasma fire or other ap2 shenanigans.

Well, that depends on the rest of your threats. For example, if you also have a lot of tanks on the table those AP 1/2 weapons are going to be shooting at vehicle targets, and your terminators will only get the random bolters/lasguns/etc that can't hurt your tanks. In that case the stormshields aren't really necessary, and the storm bolters give you extra firepower.

8 assault terminators with TH/SS (or 7 and 2 captains in Artificer armor) in a Land Raider Crusader with a multimelta is one of the most useless and overpriced units in the game:

Fixed that for you. That unit is a horrible waste of points, since most of the time it will just charge and massively overkill a 5-man tactical squad/Chimera/etc. Meanwhile a smaller, more efficient unit would still kill the target just as well, but cost a lot fewer points.

I've walked them across and deep striked with them sucessfully most of the time. Usually the ranged weapons which can damage them have been busy elsewhere.

I've always preferred the normal terminators to get the bolter shots and the heavy flamer. You can always add a thunderhammer god to the unit in the form of a character.

I think CSM terminators edge it over the standard marine terminators due to their options and the marks to make them more robust 4+ Inv save or T5; but their poor landraider option lets them down if you go that way.

I tend to play BTs so my termies are a bit different.
That said I have used C:SM Termies plenty of times before.

If you're going for a competitive build I would stay away from the land raiders, the popular Necrons will make short work of it, most armies have ways to take out a big AV vehicle, it's a big point sink and bullet magnet that will most likely not make it past turn 2.

One of the advantages of vanilla termies is combat-squad, you can go dual CMLs, combat squadded, keep the launchers in the back to take things out while your sergeant and PF/CF go squish stuff. Or CML and assault cannon/HF for a more assaulty unit.

I'm not a big fan of deepstriking:
-it's at least one turn that guns aren't used
-it's at least 2 turns that you can't assault

That said it is sometimes strategically useful to DS, so stay open-minded. If you do, definitely combat squad for a smaller footprint upon arrival and less chance of mishap.

Assault termies are great but definitely one-sided: they only assault. If they get in an assault they do their job, but a smart enemy will stay away from them. Which brings back the issue of spending points in a land raider to get them in assault range.

So my solution?

Join the dark side!

Black templars can stick 2 special weapons in a 5-man termie squad and take tank-hunter USR.
Their assault termies will move closer to the enemy when they take a casualty which helps their lack of mobility.
My competitive BT list includes 19 termies, and does pretty well as an all-comer list.

Hope this helps! Have fun!

@phoenix darkus: I'm a bit confused about what you're saying regarding deep striking. BRB says deep striking units can shoot on arrival, just not move (except to disembark a transport) or assault. so, wouldn't that just add up to no assaulting turn 1, but otherwise you're golden?

good point about the small unit footprint to help avoid mishaps.

 Jasper wrote:


I think CSM terminators edge it over the standard marine terminators due to their options and the marks to make them more robust 4+ Inv save or T5; but their poor landraider option lets them down if you go that way.

Yeah that dang land raider is almost pointless. Forces Chaos to rely on deepstriking and shooting, much like sternguard.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Jasper wrote:


I think CSM terminators edge it over the standard marine terminators due to their options and the marks to make them more robust 4+ Inv save or T5; but their poor landraider option lets them down if you go that way.

Yeah that dang land raider is almost pointless. Forces Chaos to rely on deepstriking and shooting, much like sternguard.

but without icons now they mishap, unlike sternguard who have drop pods

i run a 10 man strog unit of tactical termies with a CML and they usually perdorm very well. You can add a character tp them to make them extra killy, be it a Libby in terminator armour or my favorite is Lysander, whose bolter drill really gives them some extra dakka. granted were talking a lil over 650 points here, but its a very strong unit, and one that in 6ed can krump most things in CC.

its a very strong unit all around, and the CMLs make them a very good unit to walk on the board, no need to deepstrike them.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
i run a 10 man strog unit of tactical termies with a CML and they usually perdorm very well. You can add a character tp them to make them extra killy, be it a Libby in terminator armour or my favorite is Lysander, whose bolter drill really gives them some extra dakka. granted were talking a lil over 650 points here, but its a very strong unit, and one that in 6ed can krump most things in CC.

its a very strong unit all around, and the CMLs make them a very good unit to walk on the board, no need to deepstrike them.

please! I want to play against that army.

Too many eggs in one basket, easy kill.

For the C:SM book, there's a few ways to roll with termies.

The first, and most common, is 5 TH/SS guys in a landraider, maybe more guys if you have the space. Some add chaplin, librarians and/or captains. Chaplins are great, librarians will null zone make people angry, and captains are just more killy.

Beyond that, shooting terminators work great if you take 10, two of the same special weapons and then combat squad them, with the shooty guys starting on the field, and the other team deep striking in for a charge next turn.

Be careful about spending so many points on a single unit, there are many tricks for dealing with a "deathstar"

 jordanis wrote:
you certainly can walk terminators across the board, but they will get shot to pieces, so you need to take more of them, and almost unanimously others will tell you that assault terminators are better than shooty terminators for the sole reason of: they are meant to do one thing, there is no confusing their role. and they have a 3+ invuln, which i cannot say how many times that has helped (terminators are usually met with a hail of plasma fire or other ap2 shenanigans.

food for thought:
8 assault terminators with TH/SS (or 7 and 2 captains in Artificer armor) in a Land Raider Crusader with a multimelta is one of the scariest units in the game: not a lot can deal with AV14, and the units that can are dedicated to destroying AV14 and usually have to get close to do it and tend not to survive getting counterattacked by 7 or 8 angry heavily armored men with powered sledgehammers...

Suicide Fire Dragon unit. 80pts stuck in an 85pt transport vehicle can zoom up and pop your fancy AV14 vehicle, leaving your 500+pt unit neutered.

Bright/Dark Lances. 3+ to glance, 4 glances mean your Land Raider is down. A pair of 105pt Ravagers have six Bright Lances between them.

5 Sternguard with combi-meltas in a drop pod. Similar to suicide Fire Dragon unit, but they're 180pts instead of 165.

And all that's ignoring the units that can take on your Assault Terminators in close combat...

8 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader is a massively fragile eggs-in-one-basket solution ('fragile' in the sense of 'you spent 530pts on one unit?') to almost anything. It only works if the other guy doesn't know you're going to do it and doesn't prepare a method of stopping it ahead of time.

I personally prefer Deep Strike as a delivery mechanism for shooty Terminators, but I play Dark Angels and have Deathwing Assault (Deep Strike half your Terminators on turn one) and Ravenwing bikes (teleport homers and Scout move) going for me; my Grey Knight Terminators mostly end up either used similarly in an allied force or used as footslogging anchors for the army in high-cover games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if you want to invest that many points in a deathstar, consider a Command Squad with bikes, 5 Storm Shields, a Champion, and an assorted mixture of power weapons, power fists, and thunder hammers led by a bike Captain with a Storm Shield and a Relic Blade. You get almost the same offensive power as the Terminators, the same 3++ Inv save, they're tougher (T5, FNP, and Jink saves), faster (bikes), and cost about the same, plus you have the option to mix in special weapons if you need to.

 varl wrote:
hi all,

trying to wrap my head around terminators for a C:SM list. is a land raider a must-have for termies or is walking them across the board viable? is deep striking crazy talk? I rarely see anyone mention it with regards to terminators. are they better off parked on an objective or played aggressively? 5-man or 10-man units? worth bringing more than one unit in a sub-2k list? any favored tactics for use with them?

cheers,

v

One yes you can walk them across the board but you have to be selective in your route to minimize the amount of shots you have to take before getting into assult.
Two Termies are always aggressive units but they are best used where you can draw your opponent out of position then strike. look to get into the fray quickly and out onto an objective by turn 5.
Three Deepstriking is not crazy but it is risky (also as the number of models goes up the risk increases exponentially
Four Sadly Land Raiders are way too easily countered in this edition i wouldn't bother

 jordanis wrote:
you certainly can walk terminators across the board, but they will get shot to pieces, so you need to take more of them, and almost unanimously others will tell you that assault terminators are better than shooty terminators for the sole reason of: they are meant to do one thing, there is no confusing their role. and they have a 3+ invuln, which i cannot say how many times that has helped (terminators are usually met with a hail of plasma fire or other ap2 shenanigans.

food for thought:
8 assault terminators with TH/SS (or 7 and 2 captains in Artificer armor) in a Land Raider Crusader with a multimelta is one of the scariest units in the game: not a lot can deal with AV14, and the units that can are dedicated to destroying AV14 and usually have to get close to do it and tend not to survive getting counterattacked by 7 or 8 angry heavily armored men with powered sledgehammers...

Good C'tan this is scary :O

What I meant was that if you decide to deep strike the termies, they won't be on the board on turn 1 (so no shots) and even if they arrive on turn 2 they can't assault upon arrival, which means a turn 3 assault at best. If you get crappy reserve rolls that can turn fairly disastrous as 400+ points are sitting in reserve doing nothing...

 RutgerMan wrote:

 jordanis wrote:
you certainly can walk terminators across the board, but they will get shot to pieces, so you need to take more of them, and almost unanimously others will tell you that assault terminators are better than shooty terminators for the sole reason of: they are meant to do one thing, there is no confusing their role. and they have a 3+ invuln, which i cannot say how many times that has helped (terminators are usually met with a hail of plasma fire or other ap2 shenanigans.

food for thought:
8 assault terminators with TH/SS (or 7 and 2 captains in Artificer armor) in a Land Raider Crusader with a multimelta is one of the scariest units in the game: not a lot can deal with AV14, and the units that can are dedicated to destroying AV14 and usually have to get close to do it and tend not to survive getting counterattacked by 7 or 8 angry heavily armored men with powered sledgehammers...

Good C'tan this is scary :O

Scary that someone would put 1/3 of their points into one unit?

I agree.

Terrifying that anyone would think that is smart.

heh I used to run 6 assault Termies 4xTH/SS 2xDLC + 1 LIbby Nullzone/Gate of Infinity. Place them out of LoS turn 1 and than port them close to your desired location.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 RutgerMan wrote:

 jordanis wrote:
you certainly can walk terminators across the board, but they will get shot to pieces, so you need to take more of them, and almost unanimously others will tell you that assault terminators are better than shooty terminators for the sole reason of: they are meant to do one thing, there is no confusing their role. and they have a 3+ invuln, which i cannot say how many times that has helped (terminators are usually met with a hail of plasma fire or other ap2 shenanigans.

food for thought:
8 assault terminators with TH/SS (or 7 and 2 captains in Artificer armor) in a Land Raider Crusader with a multimelta is one of the scariest units in the game: not a lot can deal with AV14, and the units that can are dedicated to destroying AV14 and usually have to get close to do it and tend not to survive getting counterattacked by 7 or 8 angry heavily armored men with powered sledgehammers...

Good C'tan this is scary :O

Scary that someone would put 1/3 of their points into one unit?

I agree.

Terrifying that anyone would think that is smart.

1/3 depending on the game size you play, i usually play at the 2k to 2500 level, so 8 terminators in 1 tank isnt that much. putting terminators in a raider period is a huge pointsink might as well make full use of it.

I've only played a couple of games with my terminators (Chaos) but there is a way to Deep Striek them in safely.

Give you Lord the Dimensional Key.

I put my Khorne lord in a land raider and deploy near the front, usually i can get a turn 2 charge. As soon as my lord kills a enemy in CC the key is activated and (according to RAW i believe) stops scatter on everything coming in via Deep Strike....anywhere on the table.

very handy.

I'm also abotu to start work on a Cataphractii Chaos lord for my IW. can't wait.

I play a GK Ghostwing, 27 TDA at 1500pts with no vehicles. My tactics for using it is to reserve Mordrak, his Ghosts, and a Libby with Teleport Homer as a single unit,and reserve one of the 10man GKT units while Combat Squading the other GKT unit. The split unit will be deloyed in cover.

Turn 1 Mordrak+Ghosts+Libby arrive anywhere on the table I want with no scatter (normally behind cover and/or near an enemy unit I can neutralize during the shooting phase). Turn 2 the reserved GKT squad lands next to them (Psychic Communion+Homer). At this point my entire army is on the table, with the bulk of the army in my opponent's starting zone.

Use to work quite well back in 5th when I could reserve all of it, and the Libby would Warp Rift something on turn 1 while using Sanctuary to delay assaults. In 6th I'm forced to leave a couple units on the table and save points by taking Prescience and Psychic Scream. Still a very agressive army with decent survivability (if played aggressively)

SJ

I have found tactical terms excellent for c:sm.

Our troops points us heavily to being shooty, so these guys support your shooty, defensive style.

They do pack a massive wallop with fists if they survive, and with 2+ that means some opponents have to ensure their assault is well cordinated or these guys represent strong counter assault, a nice ace to get your tacs free and clear to move to objectives later in the game.

While i acknowledge how good TH terms are i find tac terms and their jack of all trades nature compliments my lists better.

I have been wondering about the optimum usage of terminators too; to me it seems that anything below 2000pts having up to 1/4 or 1/5 of your army point as one unit e.g. a 10- man or L.R with accompanying is a bit too high risk.

One thing I have been considering is using an empty drop pod with a locator beacon as a reference for DS'ing terminators, would this be viable? at the moment I am taking assault terminators, but can see that the DS would leave them very vulnerable unless some creative LOS blocking went down with the drop pod!

Another suggestion from Nevelon was that Scout bikers with a locator could do the same job for me and prove a lot more effective?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I play a GK Ghostwing, 27 TDA at 1500pts with no vehicles. My tactics for using it is to reserve Mordrak, his Ghosts, and a Libby with Teleport Homer as a single unit,and reserve one of the 10man GKT units while Combat Squading the other GKT unit. The split unit will be deloyed in cover.

Turn 1 Mordrak+Ghosts+Libby arrive anywhere on the table I want with no scatter (normally behind cover and/or near an enemy unit I can neutralize during the shooting phase). Turn 2 the reserved GKT squad lands next to them (Psychic Communion+Homer). At this point my entire army is on the table, with the bulk of the army in my opponent's starting zone.

Use to work quite well back in 5th when I could reserve all of it, and the Libby would Warp Rift something on turn 1 while using Sanctuary to delay assaults. In 6th I'm forced to leave a couple units on the table and save points by taking Prescience and Psychic Scream. Still a very agressive army with decent survivability (if played aggressively)

SJ

I am really going to miss playing DE. the 600 point eggs in a landraider box and 27 TDA really appeal to me.
For every unit out there, there is a counter. TDA most of all. Know what can beat you before you start getting too fresh with your choices

I've never lost to DE. Your units are easier to kill than mine are,

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I've never lost to DE. Your units are easier to kill than mine are,

SJ

well I humbly invite you to try it.

 Exergy wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I've never lost to DE. Your units are easier to kill than mine are,

SJ

well I humbly invite you to try it.

Wha? What pert of "I've never lost to DE" implies I've never fought DE? I. Have. Never. Lost. A. Fight. Against. Dark Eldar. With. My. Ghostwing.

Hope that cleared it up.

SJ

gee dubya wrote:
I have been wondering about the optimum usage of terminators too; to me it seems that anything below 2000pts having up to 1/4 or 1/5 of your army point as one unit e.g. a 10- man or L.R with accompanying is a bit too high risk.

One thing I have been considering is using an empty drop pod with a locator beacon as a reference for DS'ing terminators, would this be viable? at the moment I am taking assault terminators, but can see that the DS would leave them very vulnerable unless some creative LOS blocking went down with the drop pod!

Another suggestion from Nevelon was that Scout bikers with a locator could do the same job for me and prove a lot more effective?

So take flashlight spam then you dont have high value targets.

The sarcasm is because these guys are high value because they can provide you a capability that will win the game if used correctly. Worrying about paying up for expensive units is one of the worst limitations I could imagine on list building. In my view choose the capabilities you want, understand how they compliment each other, then balance out the points. Ie build your wishlist then worry about the points limit. You will find weapon upgrades, extra speeders, a terminator etc that need to go so you come back to the points limit.

Locator beacons are the best way to move quickly. I say best deliberately. Gate of infinity onto locator is fail safe. Nevelon is right, as he is every time I read his posts, that scout bikers are an awesome delivery platform because the locator is on the table and ready to receive terminators gating over on turn 1. And your pods can use it turn 1 too. ie with the locator on the scout bikers you can concentrate force in a very awkward place for your opponent very early in the game.

For many players their strategy unravels immediately as they just try and counter your deployment. Effectively you are both now fighting on your terms.

With DS in my view its either suicide unit, ie pod with 5 combimelta sternguard, or a major thrust, in which case you want to move as much as you can with the move. When I see 5 terminators dropped and people disappointed they get brassed up I am always a little surprised. Expecting a bit much from your 200 points of terminators to take on 1850 points of retaliation all alone?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I've never lost to DE. Your units are easier to kill than mine are,

SJ

well I humbly invite you to try it.

Wha? What pert of "I've never lost to DE" implies I've never fought DE? I. Have. Never. Lost. A. Fight. Against. Dark Eldar. With. My. Ghostwing.

Hope that cleared it up.

SJ

I bet you've got a 12" cock too

Its impossible to take such claims here without a healthy handful of salt without proof. After all you are asking for your opinion to be considered given your record, but you have not posted your record.

Not meaning any offence, but whe i see records that are mostly victories i am dubious till i see batreps.

I have only played DE once and i was giving them heaps for early turns yet they ultimately ended up smashing me. Wyches haywired a LR to death after assaulting and wiping out TH termis.

I like the foot Tac TDA's. They bring good firepower, good saves, good assault so are good at hunting down opposing hard targets. They are not a dedicated beat stick so will lose out to many of the hard core assault units.

DS Tac's are nice for the sudden pressure the volume they can give brings.