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EDITED

I apologize there is a misunderstanding, dont blame the unit blame unit selection. I am not saying somehow if you were good enough player you could make poor units like IG techpriest work, I was saying blame your unit selection and tactics. I apologize for the misunderstanding, I changed the title aswell, thanks Godless Mimicry post.



I tend to think that almost nearly every unit can be used. If Phil Kelly or Matt Ward wrote the book its almost a gurantee that every unit can be used. I see post where people compare units from different codexes that have different roles and different support units therefore different combos and overall its unfair to both units to do that.

Why dont my anti-tank unit work as well as a vendetta? Why is it so cheap? Its unfair, well I am going to do the unthinkable and explain why the vendetta is not under priced.

In the iG codex how many excellent anti-tank units do they have? Melta vets, heavy weapon teams, manticores, and hydras just to name a few. So why should an IG codex have to pay alot for an anti-tank unit when they can get anti-tank from nearly every unit in the codex? Its cheap because its just another anti-tank weapon in the IG codex, at the end of the day its a heavy weapon lascannon team that has the free order all the time. Its also an av 12 transport, nearly every unit in the IG codex can take an av 12 transport called the chimera. Its a flyer though? Which is new to this edition and I honestly havent figured out flyers and how they interact with the balance of the game, but my theory is that every army has a flyer. They usually are 150 or lower and have excellent anti-tank weapons the vendetta is no different. In the IG codex it doesnt offer anything special, twin-linked anti-tank weapons can be found in the heavy support section and your infantry can do it to with an order. The only thing that makes it stand out is that its a flyer and a transport besides that its not amazing. If I played IG I would use 2 and a hellhound which offers something unique in the IG codex which is why its the same price!

If you stop thinking like a player and blaming the unit and thinking like Matt Ward and Phil Kelly the designers and deciding why this unit is different and why do I have to pay so much for it when in other codexes something similar is cheaper you might find out how to make it work in your list.

Most people do not see the power in each unit which is a reflection of your skill and knowledge of the game.

Example:
I am one of few people who like the callidus assassin. Only in fun games they say but I use it very competively. One arguement is that it cannot do enough damage, but if you use every rule at its disposal and compliment it you will be surprised.

In one game I came in polymorphined a chosen unit killing 2, flame it killing 2 more than a strike squad killed the rest of the unit with storm bolters. Next turn I flamed a chaos unit killing 3, charged it issued a challenged he had to accept, killed the champion, used hit and run to get away. Next turn he shot at my strike squad instead of the assassin, my turn I moved backed up flame them this time wounding on 4's because champion was gone killing 3, and finished them off in combat while my strike squad was able to shoot at something different. That was 2 units that were killed mainly due to the assassin being used correctly.

In a objective's game I had last turn, and I used psychic communion to keep him from coming in until turn 3. Polymorphine did to much damage to the long fang unit killing 2 of the 5, I did not flame them but instead hid him so that if he wanted to shoot me he would have to move. He ignored the assassin, I charged the small unit of long fang but instead of using the c'tan phase sword, I used the shredder! I issued a challenge he accepted and we remained in combat locked in combat until I decided to use hit and run and move 3d6 closer to an objective when the last turn of the game was next . I than use moved through cover than ran to contest his objective on the last turn he never saw it coming, a tie became a win.

Accept the fact that its not the unit but you, and once you start critizing yourself instead of the unit and thinking about all the possible ways you can make this unit work for you and your list I promise, you will become an excellent player! Atleast it has worked for me!

What do you guys feel about my miniature rant?

 CKO wrote:
If Phil Kelly or Matt Ward wrote the book its almost a gurantee that every unit can be used.

This is a bad assumption. GW openly admit that they don't playtest or balance for competitive gaming, so it's absurd to assume that somehow they magically got that perfect balance and every unit is useful.

Its unfair, well I am going to do the unthinkable and explain why the vendetta is not under priced.

Good luck with that. One of the few things all serious 40k players (even IG players who use Vendettas) can agree on is that the Vendetta is underpriced.

Which is new to this edition and I honestly havent figured out flyers and how they interact with the balance of the game, but my theory is that every army has a flyer.

Perhaps you should wait to post about things like this until after you've spent some time figuring out the new rules? Not every army has a flyer, and of the ones that do not all of them have good flyers.

In the IG codex it doesnt offer anything special

That is absolutely wrong. The Vendetta has insanely efficient firepower that no other unit can match, and the flyer rules give it the mobility to put it anywhere on the table, often with no cover saves.

What do you guys feel about my miniature rant?

It's incredibly idealistic, gets the rules wrong, confuses "better than nothing" with "worth taking", and completely ignores point efficiency in "analyzing" performance. In short, better luck next time?

Have to agree with Peregrine.

However, in the case of the Vendetta, when that book was written, it was only a skimmer, which meant that it wasnt as good at doing its job, but still was useful.

Also, what hes saying is; every unit isnt necessarily competitive, but each unit will have a particular niche it fits into within the army.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
However, in the case of the Vendetta, when that book was written, it was only a skimmer, which meant that it wasnt as good at doing its job, but still was useful.

Also, what hes saying is; every unit isnt necessarily competitive, but each unit will have a particular niche it fits into within the army.

Whilst I'll agree that a lot of people dismiss units because they see them in the wrong way, I have to point out that Mandrakes are just pants. I genuinely cannot find a role for them that is not performed better than another unit in the codex. Sometimes, a unit is just bad.

I am going to ignore the insults and just state my counter to your point of views, because you are simply rude!

 Peregrine wrote:

This is a bad assumption. GW openly admit that they don't playtest or balance for competitive gaming, so it's absurd to assume that somehow they magically got that perfect balance and every unit is useful.

This is a bad assumption I know that GW wants every army to be able to compete with each other, I am sure that balance is is their key objective in their creating process, give competive players what they want on the other hand they can care less about.

 Peregrine wrote:
Good luck with that. One of the few things all serious 40k players (even IG players who use Vendettas) can agree on is that the Vendetta is underpriced.

It is typical for someone to say things like this when they themselves cannot do something and they dislike that someone might be able to do it.

 Peregrine wrote:
Perhaps you should wait to post about things like this until after you've spent some time figuring out the new rules? Not every army has a flyer, and of the ones that do not all of them have good flyers

I am sorry, I did not make it simple. Let me rephrase this quote for you:

 CKO wrote:
Flyers, which is new to this edition and I honestly havent figured out flyers and how they interact with the balance of the game, but my theory is that every army has a flyer. They usually are 150 or lower and have excellent anti-tank weapons the vendetta is no different.

Flyers are new, they usually are cheap and have excellent anti-tank weapons, not every codex has one but they usually fit into that role.

 Peregrine wrote:
That is absolutely wrong. The Vendetta has insanely efficient firepower that no other unit can match, and the flyer rules give it the mobility to put it anywhere on the table, often with no cover saves.

The IG codex is filled with efficient firepower you are missing the point I think and didnt read the entire post. A heavy weapon squad with lascannons given the bring it down order has the exact same fire power, 2 hydras are better at anti-tank, meltavets with the order is better, the list can go on when it comes to anti-tank and the IG codex. It had mobility in 5th edition and it was on the same stand in 5th edition, the flyer rule makes it alot more survivable but it suffers in the movement phase being restricted to moving 18 a turn and having degree limit turn is something you have to manage.

 Peregrine wrote:

It's incredibly idealistic, gets the rules wrong, confuses "better than nothing" with "worth taking", and completely ignores point efficiency in "analyzing" performance. In short, better luck next time?

Your inability to understand the post is a reflection of your knowledge, and your reading comprehension skills you shouldnt make comments like this I feel sorry for you. I have recently started being very active on this forum and you have constantly made post with a mean streak I pray that you realize its just a game.

I DO agree that points matter more comparing within an army, not without. An army's playstyle could mean that one unit - of which there are similar types in other armies, is more of an advantage to this army, thus more expensive than it's companions from other factions.

However, I am unconvinced about your argument in regards to why the Vendetta is justifiably low-cost. In general, above and beyond what it itself can do, it's a unit that's very difficult for many other factions to deal with, particularly considering that they are often taken in multiples. While it's weapons are part of an already large smorgasbord of anti-vehicle, it's capability overall sets it far apart from anything else in the IG codex.

The Vendetta was clearly costed based on 5th edition rules, so I don't think it's "unfairly" priced - I think it just received a considerable boost in 6th that takes its usability far above its initial pricing.

 CKO wrote:
This is a bad assumption I know that GW wants every army to be able to compete with each other, I am sure that balance is is their key objective in their creating process, give competive players what they want on the other hand they can care less about.

You can't have balance without giving competitive players what they want, since what competitive players want is balance.

And GW has openly admitted that they don't put a high priority on ensuring balance, since 40k is meant to be a "beer and pretzels" game played casually between friends who never try too hard to win.

It is typical for someone to say things like this when they themselves cannot do something and they dislike that someone might be able to do it.

Err, what? I play IG and I use Vendettas and Vultures. And guess what: they're significantly undercosted.

Flyers are new, they usually are cheap and have excellent anti-tank weapons, not every codex has one but they usually fit into that role.

That's not "rephrasing", that's completely changing what you said. It's fine if you want to change it, but at least admit that you're wrong and don't pretend that it was just some kind of typo.

A heavy weapon squad with lascannons given the bring it down order has the exact same fire power

And it's a static unit so it can't outflank into side armor, it dies horribly to anything STR 6 or better (or any decent amount of weaker shooting), can't carry troops, and costs more than a Vendetta once you include the CCS to get BiD. If you look at only the pure firepower numbers and ignore everything else, sure, it's a true statement, but it's an absurd comparison to make.

2 hydras are better at anti-tank

This is another "read the rules before writing strategy articles" mistake. Since Hydras got Skyfire in 6th they are garbage at anti-tank.

meltavets with the order is better

6" range vs. 48" range, and the veterans still need a Chimera or Vendetta to haul them around.

Also, you can't give BiD to a veteran squad inside a Chimera (and every veteran squad that doesn't get a Vendetta gets a Chimera).

It had mobility in 5th edition and it was on the same stand in 5th edition, the flyer rule makes it alot more survivable but it suffers in the movement phase being restricted to moving 18 a turn and having degree limit turn is something you have to manage.

Until you realize that you can drop into hover mode and have the old 5th edition Vendetta back, except now with a free 5+ cover save. Oh yeah, and you can still move as a flyer if you want.

 Kharrak wrote:

However, I am unconvinced about your argument in regards to why the Vendetta is justifiably low-cost. In general, above and beyond what it itself can do, it's a unit that's very difficult for many other factions to deal with, particularly considering that they are often taken in multiples. While it's weapons are part of an already large smorgasbord of anti-vehicle, it's capability overall sets it far apart from anything else in the IG codex.

Why do you feel this way? I have seen them get shot down by a single night scythe, which is cheaper. When I think of all the options available to IG generals its one of their best options but I would only use 2.

 Kharrak wrote:
The Vendetta was clearly costed based on 5th edition rules, so I don't think it's "unfairly" priced - I think it just received a considerable boost in 6th that takes its usability far above its initial pricing.

I agree but flyers with the exception of the stormraen and doom scythe are relatively cheap. I think its because their damage output is limited due to reserves and movement restrictions, I would love for someone to compare the vendetta and the storm talon with twin-linked assault cannon and twin-linked lascannon at bs 4. I know the vendetta is vastly superior in durability but from a damage point of view I am intigue to know that answer.

 Peregrine wrote:

This is another "read the rules before writing strategy articles" mistake. Since Hydras got Skyfire in 6th they are garbage at anti-tank.

I admit that I do not know the rules like I should but I know more than enough, you present excellent advise in a horrible way and that is why I will not respond to your post unless it is in an approtiate manner in which you show more respect. The first sentence is unneccessary and this is not an article this is a thread, what are you talking about?

RELAX

 CKO wrote:
I have seen them get shot down by a single night scythe, which is cheaper.

So what? That just means that the Necron player rolled above average. You can't just look at one set of shooting dice and assume it's a representative sample, or that "unit X can sometimes kill unit Y" is a conclusive answer on whether unit Y is good or not. Just like it would be ridiculous to say that a Vendetta's low cost is justified because once I saw a sergeant throw a krak grenade and explode a Vendetta, or that terminators are bad because I once saw them lose combat to a single gun drone.

This is the consistent problem with your posts here, you're basing everything off an intuitive understanding how things "feel" and how single games turn out instead of looking at math and point efficiency and long-term performance.

I would love for someone to compare the vendetta and the storm talon with twin-linked assault cannon and twin-linked lascannon at bs 4.

So why not do it? The math is easy.

The first sentence is unneccessary and this is not an article this is a thread, what are you talking about?

Ah yes, demand respect and then nitpick the precise definition of "article". Perhaps showing a lack of respect is not the best way to earn respect?

And yes, the first sentence is necessary, because the whole point is that you're writing like you have conclusive arguments about how things are, but you don't really understand what you're writing about.

I cannot take any discusion serius when they say the vendetta is not undercosted. It's like discusing with someone who is into conspiracy theories but has no source critesism. Anything you say will not matter because the other person is not rational.

AV12
Transport capasety
43, points for a lascannon with 75% chanche to hit and rarly get a coversave because of the flyer base.
They are not restricted by unit capasety because you can take 9 of them. If you play at 2000 points you can take 18 of them.

I se no reason not to take 6 of them in 3x2 squadrons for 780 points. Unless your oponent is footslogging it is autowinn.

Why would you open a thread backing up your argument with your view on rules that you openly admit you don't understand and then have a pop at someone because they don't agree with you?

Would you rather me do something like this?

I am right because I go to Grand tournaments and place in the top 10 every time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/418653.page

yeah my name is chad knight i came in 5th

I am simply justifying the cost of a unit, I did not know I would get this much tongue about it. However I seem to be under attack which is fine I can handle it but can we please stay on topic and attack my original post and explain to me why what I posted is incorrect in a debateable fashion which will not lead to petite arguements. Simply saying I cannot anaylze the information because "if you believe that the vendetta is average than all of your ideas are flawed" is not helpful. I said that I do not know the rules aswell as I should, that doesnt mean I do not know the rules. When did it become bad to admit that you are not perfect?

If it looks like a troll and smells like a troll ...

To paraphrase - Vendetta is properly priced and to show that all units are balanced I will use the Grey Knights codex as my example as that has no history of ridiciulously priced units in it!

When did anyone blame taking vendettas as a reason for losing, which is the implication from the title of the thread. I played GK with an assassin and won and IG with vendettas and won therefore all units in the game are playable is spurious logic at best.

Give me examples of when Old One Eye and pyrovores in the Nids codex is a good choice, or mandrakes in a DE army, swap that vendetta for ogryns and a techpriest in the IG codex, maybe a swooping hawk eldar army.

 ruminator wrote:

Give me examples of when Old One Eye and pyrovores in the Nids codex is a good choice, or mandrakes in a DE army, swap that vendetta for ogryns and a techpriest in the IG codex, maybe a swooping hawk eldar army.

If I try will this undeserved animosity towards me in this thread stop? I will attempt to find a purpose for those units let me look at them and think about it.

 ruminator wrote:
If it looks like a troll and smells like a troll ...

To paraphrase - Vendetta is properly priced and to show that all units are balanced I will use the Grey Knights codex as my example as that has no history of ridiciulously priced units in it!

When did anyone blame taking vendettas as a reason for losing, which is the implication from the title of the thread. I played GK with an assassin and won and IG with vendettas and won therefore all units in the game are playable is spurious logic at best.

Give me examples of when Old One Eye and pyrovores in the Nids codex is a good choice, or mandrakes in a DE army, swap that vendetta for ogryns and a techpriest in the IG codex, maybe a swooping hawk eldar army.

Ruminator, it would not matter if the original poster is trolling or not. Trolls come to this thread like sharks to blood.

Is it possible to troll on your own thread? The only person that I have truly debated against is peregrine, everyone else I have asked for there opinion. However it seems that somehow I am rubbing off on people the wrong way because I am asking them to question their tactics, something I do all the time. I critique myself constantly I tend to blame myself before I put blame on others I do the same with my units that I choose to play with.

 ruminator wrote:

Give me examples of when Old One Eye and pyrovores in the Nids codex is a good choice, or mandrakes in a DE army, swap that vendetta for ogryns and a techpriest in the IG codex, maybe a swooping hawk eldar army.

I looked at the techpriest first because I thought it had a 2+ save but it doesnt, however take 2 servitors with one bringing the price up to 75 points and put it in a vendetta. You can ride around in an av 12 flyer with the ability to restore hull points or weapon destroyed results on a 3+. The total cost is 205 the same as a Grey Knight Stormraven base. Not much but with it being a flyer and av 12 and the ability to restore hull points that unit will be really durable. Not amazing but thats what I can think of in this short period of time. If this doesnt show that I am not trying to troll but simply want to exchange ideas I dont know what will?

I have to admit that I stopped reading after you considered the Vendetta being priced fairly or even being worse than comparable choices...it's the most overpowered unit in the game right now...by a long shot.

The logic that you are right because you place in tournaments is incredibly flawed, an extension of that would be that only the best footballers in the world are allowed to discusss tactics of the game or that people on all A's are the only ones allowed pass judgement on an education system

I am not saying that its not good, its a great unit I am saying its reasonably priced. 2 lascannon hits per turn first one is most likely going to be on the side coming in on turn 2 around 10 lascannon hits throughout the course of the game if its not shaken or destroyed is not game changing. It doesnt have daemonic posseion or living metal it cant hurt infantry like the night scythe can, I assume at this point everyone is partially reading you all just stop at vendetta reasonably priced, lol I feel like I am saying the world is round not flat.

Whats worse is that the thread isnt even about the Vendetta its about people blaming their units instead of their tactics.

 CKO wrote:
I assume at this point everyone is partially reading you all just stop at vendetta reasonably priced, lol I feel like I am saying the world is round not flat.

It's the exact opposite here...you argue that the world's flat. Arguing that the Vendetta is reasonably priced comes from two different positions:

a) You are a IG player who spams Vendettas.

b) You got no clue about balance.

You try to back up your points by saying you took part in a tournament yet at the same time, fail to realize that actual strength of key units in 6th...that's my point. What point is there in discussing "tactics" with someone who does not recognize / acknowledge actual balance problems?

Not to mention that the OP hardly tangents tactics at all...

CKO - Welcome to the party. A couple years ago I made a thread talking about looking at your dex in a different way, and to use different units that "suck" and finding out when used correctly they are very potent. I went on to use FlashGits as my example. No matter how hard you try to prove otherwise, most people will say "Well why arnt they in tourny army lists?" and then discredit what youre trying to do. I commend you though, I love seeing people trying and succeeding in using other units that arnt normally used.

 CKO wrote:

 Kharrak wrote:

However, I am unconvinced about your argument in regards to why the Vendetta is justifiably low-cost. In general, above and beyond what it itself can do, it's a unit that's very difficult for many other factions to deal with, particularly considering that they are often taken in multiples. While it's weapons are part of an already large smorgasbord of anti-vehicle, it's capability overall sets it far apart from anything else in the IG codex.

Why do you feel this way? I have seen them get shot down by a single night scythe, which is cheaper. When I think of all the options available to IG generals its one of their best options but I would only use 2.

 Kharrak wrote:
The Vendetta was clearly costed based on 5th edition rules, so I don't think it's "unfairly" priced - I think it just received a considerable boost in 6th that takes its usability far above its initial pricing.

I agree but flyers with the exception of the stormraen and doom scythe are relatively cheap. I think its because their damage output is limited due to reserves and movement restrictions, I would love for someone to compare the vendetta and the storm talon with twin-linked assault cannon and twin-linked lascannon at bs 4. I know the vendetta is vastly superior in durability but from a damage point of view I am intigue to know that answer.

1) An interesting comparison - note though that the Night Scythe is armour 11 (armour difference being a big thing for flyers), can't hover, and its attacks are not ap2 - while the vendetta gets that +1 on the damage chart. Note that while the Night Scythe will on average get a glance and a penetrate on the Vendetta, the Vendetta in turn will likely get two penetrates on the Night Scythe (with that +1 on the damage chart, again) This example isn't helped by the fact that the Night Scythe is the OTHER horribly undercosted flyer in the game that people are upset about

2) You also have to remember that flyers are only hit on 6's by the majority of firepower in the current game - thus making them notably difficult to deal with. This is also why the Vendetta in turn is arguably the best air-superiority fighter in the game. It has the most potent anti-flier armaments in the game, and has a better chance of killing a single vehicle than any other flyer, and is serious competition for many other anti-vehicle units in the game in general.

 Kharrak wrote:


1) An interesting comparison - note though that the Night Scythe is armour 11 (armour difference being a big thing for flyers), can't hover, and its attacks are not ap2 - while the vendetta gets that +1 on the damage chart. Note that while the Night Scythe will on average get a glance and a penetrate on the Vendetta, the Vendetta in turn will likely get two penetrates on the Night Scythe (with that +1 on the damage chart, again) This example isn't helped by the fact that the Night Scythe is the OTHER horribly undercosted flyer in the game that people are upset about

First I must think you for discussing tactics and not participating in that nonsense. This is partially my fault because I compared it to the night scythe first, I know you can do this when you look in the IG codex if you wanted to could you build an IG list without a vendetta and not worry about your anti-tank. The answer is yes, because you have so many other ways you can do it and that is why its cheap. Now if it were in the space marine codex it would be totally different it would cost 170-200 because nothing in that codex would be able to do what a vendetta does. Thats all I was trying to say.

 Kharrak wrote:
2) You also have to remember that flyers are only hit on 6's by the majority of firepower in the current game - thus making them notably difficult to deal with. This is also why the Vendetta in turn is arguably the best air-superiority fighter in the game. It has the most potent anti-flier armaments in the game, and has a better chance of killing a single vehicle than any other flyer, and is serious competition for many other anti-vehicle units in the game in general.

I didnt consider that kharrak I think its the best anti-air weapon that IG have, but they also have hydras to compete for that spot but I get where you are going.

I think players would have a better understanding of the game if they had tunnel vision and just truly focus on their codex, worry about how to stop or prevent a other codex units stop thinking about how many points it cost them and how much easier life would be if you had it in your codex. I just want people to look at their codex and themselves and make the best list and they would be better and the game will become simple. Its like the 1st step to becoming a great player, I am telling anyone that is listening (which is also another step) the first step to winning the majority of your games is looking at yourself and making changes, not the codex or units.

Sometimes it's not just about blaming the unit, some units just suck. Try playing lychguard and you'll see : they cost a fortune in points, lack punch (2A and WS4 and now ap3 is just a joke), move slow, aren't as tough as they're made out to be AND run off whenever they're beaten in combat and get caught and wiped out because of I2.

True, it's not the unit's fault if you lose, it's your fault for taking such a gakky unit.

Look, the very fact that Warhammer have so many models in it, a really odd sett of rules where old codexes get crammed into new editions and rarly updated and there are objectives in each game that you do not need to reach in any one spesefic game means very mutch that this is a game of emergence.

The designers makes the mechanics, and the game is the dynamics that come out of that game. Of course you will be awared to think creativaly. Also, as with most things, you are looking for the tactics that are best, not the once that are pupular. If all the best tactics where the most popular once then everybody would have the best army lists. On top of that you can add induvidual skill and preferences to playstyles.

It is quite clear that warhammer is an emergent game where GW do not know what will happen and neather do the people on the internett have omniperspective tactics. On top of this you can add things like rock paper scissor and cyclical balance. Playing warhammer can be as different as squig models. I think you will find that we are thinking critical. The problem is that GW is not a game with a lott of depth in it once you figure out that chimeras should not allow 5 people to fire out of it, veterans are very good and vendettas are undercosted. The same with the crosant flying bakery list that necrons can do. Since all of it is flying your oponent cannot interact with your army. Purifyers get acess to a whole lott of cheap odly costed weapons. That is just flawed game design. Or game design that pushes you in a direction of figuring what units are better then others and rewarding the better player for spotting it. However, it is fearly badly hidden in some codexes. And these codexes usualy perform very well.

 CKO wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Good luck with that. One of the few things all serious 40k players (even IG players who use Vendettas) can agree on is that the Vendetta is underpriced.

It is typical for someone to say things like this when they themselves cannot do something and they dislike that someone might be able to do it.

How about you stop with the generalizations, please? I CAN do that something. I CAN take a vendetta with allies. I CAN fill that vendetta with a squad of those melta or plama vets you were touting in your first post.

However, that doesn't make them properly priced in 6th edition. In 5th edition, they were fine. I could pop one with a missile launcher Devastator squad and not thing twice about it. In 6th edition, the flier rule makes them hard to hit without skyfire, and the ability to move 18+ inches and still fire 3 twin-linked lascannons is hard to ignore.

I'm afraid your argument is not going to convince anyone otherwise, but thanks for the interesting discussion.

 CKO wrote:

 ruminator wrote:

Give me examples of when Old One Eye and pyrovores in the Nids codex is a good choice, or mandrakes in a DE army, swap that vendetta for ogryns and a techpriest in the IG codex, maybe a swooping hawk eldar army.

I looked at the techpriest first because I thought it had a 2+ save but it doesnt, however take 2 servitors with one bringing the price up to 75 points and put it in a vendetta. You can ride around in an av 12 flyer with the ability to restore hull points or weapon destroyed results on a 3+. The total cost is 205 the same as a Grey Knight Stormraven base. Not much but with it being a flyer and av 12 and the ability to restore hull points that unit will be really durable. Not amazing but thats what I can think of in this short period of time. If this doesnt show that I am not trying to troll but simply want to exchange ideas I dont know what will?

Come up with ideas for Old One Eye and the Pyrovore.

If your argument is that every model can be used in a competitive environment you need to show more than the potential to repair something that either doesn't take damage or dies in one turn.

Well, he is correct though.

You can use everything in a competitive environment.

You can use FO, monoliths and the Pyrovore in a compeitive environment.

You will utterly lose against actual competitive lists...yet you *can* field them.

 Sigvatr wrote:

You can use everything in a competitive environment.

You can use FO, monoliths and the Pyrovore in a compeitive environment.

You will utterly lose against actual competitive lists...yet you *can* field them.

True.

Well, he is correct though.

No, his point was that you can make those units competitive.