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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Fair enough Platuan4th.

But even still, wouldn't it just be better overall to allow those who want to play Death/Ravenwing to do so, and have the special characters provide a benefit to those that take that sort of army rather than those characters becoming the only way to field that army in the first place?

To me this is a lot like the "Why don't GW do a clear, concise and balanced (as possible) set of rules?"[i] arguments where people say [i]"Well us casual gamers don't need that!", and people respond with "Yes but clear, concise rules benefit everyone." Death/Ravenwing without requiring Belial/Sammy wouldn’t stop those people that bring him from doing so, so why would it matter to them?

 ph34r wrote:
... though he will be required to also take 10 scouts or tacticals...

At which point it ceases to be a Deathwing army. You get that, right? I mean, you are cognisant of the fact that I'm talking about a 100% Termy/Land Raider/Dread army, the way it was in the 3rd Ed Codex, right?

Nobody's saying that it wouldn't be better if TDA librarians and chaplains could also make DW troops, though IMO that argument could be made. What we ARE saying is that things make more sense and are less horrible than you think, and that the scenarios you are coming up with are able to be resolved.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am still waiting to see information on Veterans and Tactical Squads. I don’t know if this means anything but but you can buy the veterans pack under both Elites and Troops.

I get that you will probably just hold out for info from someone at least claiming to be in the know, but anyway:

Almost certainly meaningless, Deathwing and Ravenwing can be taken as troops under certain situations but neither appears in the troops section (so it's not that Veterans are unlocked by something) and the fact that they are listed in the Elites section means there is an Elite Power Armoured unit which has to be the Company Veterans.

Also, we have Sternguard in the Elites section despite the rumours continuing to claim DAs don't get Sternguard, so they are just there as "here are some guys with fancy bolters that you might want to use as Veterans".

I will be shocked if DA Veterans listing under troops turns out to be anything more than an attempt to sell robed marines.

 Platuan4th wrote:
It just doesn't bother me anymore since I know GW isn't gonna change it and I know the fluff behind why. Saw the writing on the wall the first time a codex did it in 4th.

Maybe I just got my hopes up after they didn't do it in the Chaos Codex. Man... if Kharn was required for 'Zerkers as Troops, or Lucius for Noise Marines, and so on, you'd've never heard the end of it from me!

Good tacticals???? Heresy!

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am still waiting to see information on Veterans and Tactical Squads. I don’t know if this means anything but but you can buy the veterans pack under both Elites and Troops.

I get that you will probably just hold out for info from someone at least claiming to be in the know, but anyway:

Almost certainly meaningless, Deathwing and Ravenwing can be taken as troops under certain situations but neither appears in the troops section (so it's not that Veterans are unlocked by something) and the fact that they are listed in the Elites section means there is an Elite Power Armoured unit which has to be the Company Veterans.

Also, we have Sternguard in the Elites section despite the rumours continuing to claim DAs don't get Sternguard, so they are just there as "here are some guys with fancy bolters that you might want to use as Veterans".

I will be shocked if DA Veterans listing under troops turns out to be anything more than an attempt to sell robed marines.

Thats what I figured, but this is GW, Who Knows

 pretre wrote:
Good tacticals???? Heresy!

I know, I may be tempted to paint up that third tactical squad that's been hanging around in my closet.

Gotta agree with H.B.M.C. on this one. In fact to me it makes more sense that the Deathwing would unlock Belial, not the other way around!

If the Deathwing is in orbit and two squads are needed to deploy at separate key locations what does Belial do? Flip a coin and tell the one unit to stand by until he finishes up elsewhere?

 amanita wrote:
Gotta agree with H.B.M.C. on this one. In fact to me it makes more sense that the Deathwing would unlock Belial, not the other way around!

If the Deathwing is in orbit and two squads are needed to deploy at separate key locations what does Belial do? Flip a coin and tell the one unit to stand by until he finishes up elsewhere?

You simply field them as the elite choices they are. This really isn't complicated. You can field some DW without Belial but if you want to field only or mostly DW you need the appropriate company master to do so.

 amanita wrote:
Gotta agree with H.B.M.C. on this one. In fact to me it makes more sense that the Deathwing would unlock Belial, not the other way around!

If the Deathwing is in orbit and two squads are needed to deploy at separate key locations what does Belial do? Flip a coin and tell the one unit to stand by until he finishes up elsewhere?

No he flips one of the watchers to decide which one he goes with and it shows up as a Troop choice and the other becomes a Elite Choice.

In a 500 point game? Silly. Throw in tacticals and it's no longer Deathwing though.

A lot of things break down at 500 points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe I just got my hopes up after they didn't do it in the Chaos Codex. Man... if Kharn was required for 'Zerkers as Troops, or Lucius for Noise Marines, and so on, you'd've never heard the end of it from me!

That would have been much worse and made much less sense IMO, and I agree with the sentiment, though my hopes for TDA HQ = DW troops were much lower than yours.

Drunkspleen wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am still waiting to see information on Veterans and Tactical Squads. I don’t know if this means anything but but you can buy the veterans pack under both Elites and Troops.

I will be shocked if DA Veterans listing under troops turns out to be anything more than an attempt to sell robed marines.

Well last I checked Tactical squads were led by Veteran Sergeants. So selling robed marines might be the point what with the DV Sergeant having a tabard an such.

lord of corn wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Good tacticals???? Heresy!

I know, I may be tempted to paint up that third tactical squad that's been hanging around in my closet.

I might be tempted to take my Scout squad with me to games. Actually have a bunch of Tacticals/Devs sitting around and yet I've never bought Tactical boxes... all from starters.

amanita wrote:Gotta agree with H.B.M.C. on this one. In fact to me it makes more sense that the Deathwing would unlock Belial, not the other way around!

If the Deathwing is in orbit and two squads are needed to deploy at separate key locations what does Belial do? Flip a coin and tell the one unit to stand by until he finishes up elsewhere?

Or you just break the FoC chart and determine that any unit is scoring? At least in friendly games, obviously for a tournament you're screwed but I think that coin flip is intended to be rare enough there's always a Tactical squad around.

Though an offical 3rd Edition ALL Deathwing option would be fun. Of course Belial didn't exist at all yet and I'm sure now that they finally have a character and a model they want to sell it.

"Thank the Lion," Brother-Sergeant Percivus said, his left arm clasped against the still-bleeding wound on his side. "The Deathwing have arrived!"
"Well met, Brother Percivus," Sergeant Walks-With-Lions replied. "Many of the Emperor's enemies shall meet their end this day."
“I shall leave it to you then brother,” Percivus said as he took up his Chainsword and turned to the remnants of his squad. “Fall back men. The First Company will hold here until we re-arm, patch our wounds and return.”
“Apologies brother,” Walks-With-Lions said, his voice softer than before. “We cannot hold this objective for you whilst your men recover from their wounds.”
“Why not?”
The great bone-armoured Marine turned from side to side before returning his gaze to the wounded Sergeant.
“Do you see Master Belial anywhere?”
“N... no.”
“Until he appears, no ground can we hold, no objective can we take, and no mission can we complete!”
“But there are 30 of you!” Incredulity had crept into Percivus’ voice.
“Yes, a full 30,” Walks-With-Lions said, his voice growing a wistful tone. “It is the maximum number that we may congregate without our master’s presence.”
“What???”
“Go, my smaller brother. Tend to your wounds and see your squad to resupply and proper medical treatment. But be warned that as long as the three of you are not here, the 30 of us cannot hold back this tide!”
“Isn’t that Belial over there?”
The Terminator turned.
“Indeed it is! Very well then. We can now hold this point in your absence. Take all the time you need!”



So cinematic!

Wait... Game rules don't make sense in a real context? Heresy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From a less sarcastic approach, deathwing would not be wasted holding a point unless they were the main force. Deathwing are not fielded as a main force without the presence of their leader.

Your sense of humour must be turned off pretre. Turn it back on please.

Right. But what if the Deathwing is the only force, and you want to represent a smaller portion of some vast conflict that includes Belial. Can't just have those two squads and a dread take down the reactor without Belial baby-sitting?

I am just happy because the dark angels will serve as a better way to play the army I wanted to play. Will they be dark angels? No, but it will work the way I wanted to, especially with the rare tech that fits the way I wanted to play. Bring in some space marine allies for the other units I wanted to play and it should work great.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Your sense of humour must be turned off pretre. Turn it back on please.

Oh? How'd that switch get turned off?
Click

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahah

Exactly, amanita, you can't.

Ditto for Sammy. Dude shows up every time the Ravenwing do anything, apparently.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So cinematic!

Indeed! Just as cinematic as if you replaced the DA in that story with UM, or IF, or BA. It makes no sense for any of those chapters to not be able to hold ground with terminators, DA are not alone in that. What you should really be asking is why DW can hold ground at all when no other chapter's (except GK) terminators ever can.

It's not so difficult, is it...?

I mean -- you have to take an HQ. Even at 500 pts. If you want Deathwing, that HQ is a Deathwing guy, a tough fighter in Terminator armour, with either TH/SS, dual LCs, or sword/storm bolter... i.e. probably three of the most common configurations that you can easily get special-looking Termie minis with.

If you want Ravenwing you either get a guy on an awesome bike, OR one of the few HQ-choice vehicles, as part of your force.

In either case, call the leader "Belial", "Sammael", "Bodkin Van Horn," "Hoos Foos," "Snimm," "Shadrach", "Stuffy," "Stinky," "Putt-Putt", "Buffalo Bill," "Oliver Boliver Butt" "Biffalo Buff," or "Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate", or whatever you like. Like... forge your own narrative. Dude.

 ph34r wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So cinematic!

Indeed! Just as cinematic as if you replaced the DA in that story with UM, or IF, or BA. It makes no sense for any of those chapters to not be able to hold ground with terminators, DA are not alone in that. What you should really be asking is why DW can hold ground at all when no other chapter's (except GK) terminators ever can.

I fully understand that it makes no sense no matter what Chapter you choose, just that it makes less sense that DA Termies just suddenly become scoring. That was my (rather obvious and not-at-all-subtle) point ph34r.

'Scoring' is just a game balance concept. It has very little to do with the game's reality. The clue's in the term really -- 'scoring' as in 'this scores me points'. That's points, in the game. GW thinks the game becomes more interesting if there's a way to win, and for once, I think they may be on to something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, I do totally get that with this release, GW has totally fethed with all the players who want to play an all-Deathwing army led by a Librarian in a 500-pt game. I run into those guys all the time. My meta is crawling with them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So cinematic!

Indeed! Just as cinematic as if you replaced the DA in that story with UM, or IF, or BA. It makes no sense for any of those chapters to not be able to hold ground with terminators, DA are not alone in that. What you should really be asking is why DW can hold ground at all when no other chapter's (except GK) terminators ever can.

I fully understand that it makes no sense no matter what Chapter you choose, just that it makes less sense that DA Termies just suddenly become scoring. That was my (rather obvious and not-at-all-subtle) point ph34r.

It seems to me more like you believe DW "deserve" to be troops/scoring at all times no matter who is with them. I'm addressing the greater fault at play.

I thought troops were to represent the majority composition of the force that is present?

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
'Scoring' is just a game balance concept. It has very little to do with the game's reality. The clue's in the term really -- 'scoring' as in 'this scores me points'. That's points, in the game. GW thinks the game becomes more interesting if there's a way to win, and for once, I think they may be on to something.

That doesn't sound very cinematic at all!!!

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I mean, I do totally get that with this release, GW has totally fethed with all the players who want to play an all-Deathwing army led by a Librarian in a 500-pt game. I run into those guys all the time. My meta is crawling with them.

No need to be an ass about it.

I quite like the infantry models if it weren't for a few minor details on them- the sword and wings everywhere, for instance- yes, those are your symbols, fine. But there's like 5 icons per model.
Flyers, I'm quite pleased with the Dark Talon (for me it's how the stormtalon should have looked), but the land speeder... god that thing is terrible.

 shrike wrote:
Flyers, I'm quite pleased with the Dark Talon (for me it's how the stormtalon should have looked)

That’s what I like about it. They’ve taken the Space-Guppy and, y’know, given it some wings! It looks like a jet fighter. Ok, a snub-nosed jetfighter but still, better than the Space-Guppy.

It’s just a shame it has Dark Angel iconography all over it. Yes, I know, I know, it’s a Dark Angel unit, but I’d much prefer that it was generic and that it would become something all Marines can get. And, again, yes, I know GW’s justification is that they don’t want to ‘homogenise’ the Marines (it’s the reason why the Chibi-Hawk is BA’s/GK’s only), but I’d rather than standardisation between Marine chapters than each and every Codex having their own slightly different version of the same thing.

“The Dark Angel Dark Talon flies alongside the Black Templar Black Talon, which is the same thing, but it has a hat!”

 shrike wrote:
I quite like the infantry models if it weren't for a few minor details on them- the sword and wings everywhere, for instance- yes, those are your symbols, fine. But there's like 5 icons per model.

So you'd like the Dark Angels if they were just a little less Dark Angelish?