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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

Using special characters to represent other chapters has been the norm for quite some time now dawn, I do understand your issue with it though, even if I dont agree

   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

Oooh, I figured out who Azrael should be giving those 4++ invulnerable saves to... a group of close combat Scouts. Scoring now, and cheap enough that nobody really wants to be shooting at them when they have 4++.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Formosa wrote:
Using special characters to represent other chapters has been the norm for quite some time now dawn, I do understand your issue with it though, even if I dont agree


Agreed. While it would be nice to have other options, special characters unlocking different force org patterns is not the tragedy some make it out to be.

   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 kronk wrote:
So you have to pay the -Belial, Sammael, or Azrael tax to unlock the troops slot on their respective wing(s) instead of a generic HQ. That's a shame.


And all my interest in a Deathwing force flits away, like feathers in the wind...


Edited by Mannahnin...you can't do what GW suggested and just use the character's profile and make up your own name and fluff for the character? You don't have to use his model. Tons of people at my FLGS and at tournaments use special characters and just convert their own versions with a name and some different fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 23:25:24


 
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann





I'd usually take more issue with it, except they kept the multi-loadouts from the last codex. So you can vary them enough to make them your own. I guess Mr. TH/SS is staying as my Belial for the time being (though his Sword+SB version sounds fine now at the very least). Wonder if the twin-LC version has any buffs?

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Special characters unlocking specialist formations (Draigo brings lots of Paladins, Crowe is a master of Purifiers, Grimnar would naturally have a lot of Wolf Guard with him, etc.) makes sense. They’re the type of army that particular person would field.

But special characters to field something that’s intrinsic to the force makes little sense. The Dark Angels don’t have a Deathwing because of Belial. The Deathwing would be there with or without him, and it’s not as if his presence brought about some sort of doctrinal or structural change to the Deathwing to make it what it is today. Same goes for Sammy and his Ravenwing.

If Belial/Sammy allowed you make units of Knights/Black Knight (or whatever they’re called) more frequent, or scoring, or whatever, to show their own touch then fine. But Deathwing isn’t Belial & Friends. Deathwing is Deathwing, it was there before Belial and will be there after him. His presence should not be required any more than you should need Creed to field Cadians or Lucius to field Emperor’s Children.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I've got to find myself agreeing.

With the way Marks of Chaos were handled in the Chaos codex, you can't really blame people for hoping that the unlocks worked for warlord-in-terminator armour or warlord-in-a-bike.

I can't say it would have really hurt things too badly either.

However, one could theorise that if GW instead chose to represent the more common bikers and terminators by significantly cheaper in points - which they're sounding like they are, maybe one could agree that in that case, having a special character 'tax' is a worthwhile balancing mechanism...
   
Made in us
Fickle Fury of Chaos




Portland, OR

I guess I don't see the point of having a duplicate entry that would be exactly the same except for the entry name. Literally all you have to do is refer to your model as Lord Beefcake Master of the 1st Company of the Beefy Angels and blam, there ya go your very own special snowflake company master.
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Special characters unlocking specialist formations (Draigo brings lots of Paladins, Crowe is a master of Purifiers, Grimnar would naturally have a lot of Wolf Guard with him, etc.) makes sense. They’re the type of army that particular person would field.

But special characters to field something that’s intrinsic to the force makes little sense. The Dark Angels don’t have a Deathwing because of Belial. The Deathwing would be there with or without him, and it’s not as if his presence brought about some sort of doctrinal or structural change to the Deathwing to make it what it is today. Same goes for Sammy and his Ravenwing.

I'd agree with you to a point HBMC.
Belial may not be the reason why the Deathwing exists, but if the Deathwing are being fielded en masse would you not agree that it makes sense for Belial to be leading them?
Same would go for Sammael I would think, and the fact that Azrael can essentially bring the benefits of both is fantastic for what used to be a really boring special character.

If Sammael is not present, it's not unbelievable that the Ravenwing are going to be present at the force but in lesser numbers. If Belial is not present, one would think that the same would go for the Deathwing.

If Belial/Sammy allowed you make units of Knights/Black Knight (or whatever they’re called) more frequent, or scoring, or whatever, to show their own touch then fine. But Deathwing isn’t Belial & Friends. Deathwing is Deathwing, it was there before Belial and will be there after him. His presence should not be required any more than you should need Creed to field Cadians or Lucius to field Emperor’s Children.

Again, I'll agree to a point.

Deathwing is Deathwing, but I think it a bit silly to assume that every time the First Company is deployed that it is as a sole entity. I would think it would be more as attachments to the other Companies, would you not agree?

I do agree that Belial and Sammael should give something a bit more "oomph" for how they are, but I cannot help but wonder if the reaction to Draigowing is what drove them to do it like this.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






In da Mekshop

If Azrael does indeed unlock basic DA bikers (are they all Ravenwing?) and Terminators (all Deathwing I guess?) as Troops, then Azrael it is for my Silver Skulls biker/Terminator army I've been wanting to do. I might have to swap out the ranged weapon on this guy: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/83992-.html?m=2 - but I think his axe would count fine as the Sword of Secrets or whatever it is that Azrael has. If so, then perfect, DA rules for my Silver Skulls army.
Just need to know for sure that's what Azrael does, otherwise no point in getting the book...
It is a shame that a standard captain on a bike or in Terminator armor doesn't unlock their respective types though. I would have preferred that too, but whatchagunnado...

-GrimTeef-
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Special characters unlocking specialist formations (Draigo brings lots of Paladins, Crowe is a master of Purifiers, Grimnar would naturally have a lot of Wolf Guard with him, etc.) makes sense. They’re the type of army that particular person would field.

But special characters to field something that’s intrinsic to the force makes little sense. The Dark Angels don’t have a Deathwing because of Belial. The Deathwing would be there with or without him, and it’s not as if his presence brought about some sort of doctrinal or structural change to the Deathwing to make it what it is today. Same goes for Sammy and his Ravenwing.


I don't really see any difference between your counterpoint example special characters and Belial. Draigo brings lots of Paladins because he's the chapter master and in charge of them similar to how Belial does. Crowe is the master of Purifiers and gets lots of them but likely so did every single master of purifiers before him. The Grey Knights don't have purifiers because of Crowe just like the Dark Angels don't have a Deathwing because of Belial. Everything you said about the DA characters works the same as for the characters you're ok with. The formations and the characters that lead them are intrinsicly linked.

   
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 lord of corn wrote:
I guess I don't see the point of having a duplicate entry that would be exactly the same except for the entry name. Literally all you have to do is refer to your model as Lord Beefcake Master of the 1st Company of the Beefy Angels and blam, there ya go your very own special snowflake company master.


Two things:

1. 'Counts As' is not always the answer.
2. What if you don't want to bring a Company Master? What if you want your force led by a Libby or Chaplain in Termy Armour? What then?

This isn't about having a 'snowflake' character, being 'butthurt', or whatever other buzz-word you and others may want to use to dismiss this without actually arguing the points.

The Chaos Codex allows for... well, let’s just call them ‘themed’ armies because Legion armies would be a bit of a stretch without any Cult units beyond the base... and it’s just done via marks. The Marine Codex even allows for all-bike armies if your Captain has a Bike, which is a nice start.

It would just be nice if there was something along the lines of “If you army’s Warlord has Terminator Armour, then Deathwing Squads may be taken as Troops. If your army’s Warlord is Belial, then Deathwing Squads may be taken as Troops and Deathwing Knights become Scoring units”.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Belial may not be the reason why the Deathwing exists, but if the Deathwing are being fielded en masse would you not agree that it makes sense for Belial to be leading them?
Same would go for Sammael I would think, and the fact that Azrael can essentially bring the benefits of both is fantastic for what used to be a really boring special character.


I agree, to a point.

But what if I’m not fielding them en masse?

What if it’s a small point game and I want to bring a Death/Ravenwing army. What if I’m representing a small seconded force attached to a larger Dark Angel force (say, 3 squads of Deathwing, a pair of Land Raiders, a Dread, and a Command Squad working alongside 1 and a half regular Marine companies, something we see all the time in the fluff).

Do Belial and Sammy chaperone their forces to every minor conflict?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 23:39:53


   
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Right behind you.

Well of course they do. Can't let them go anywhere unsupervised am I right?
   
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Manhatten, KS

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well of course they do. Can't let them go anywhere unsupervised am I right?


They can go to battles unsupervised. Its just when they deploy in force is it not their leaders job to lead them?

Belial- Nah you guys go ahead... I am gonna sit this one out.

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 warboss wrote:
I don't really see any difference between your counterpoint example special characters and Belial. Draigo brings lots of Paladins because he's the chapter master and in charge of them similar to how Belial does. Crowe is the master of Purifiers and gets lots of them but likely so did every single master of purifiers before him. The Grey Knights don't have purifiers because of Crowe just like the Dark Angels don't have a Deathwing because of Belial. Everything you said about the DA characters works the same as for the characters you're ok with. The formations and the characters that lead them are intrinsicly linked.


I’ll admit I haven’t looked too deeply into this, so please correct these statements if they are false:

1. The Grey Knights have a First Company of nothing but Terminators, led by Draigo.
2. The Grey Knights have a specialist company of nothing but Purifiers, led by Crowe.
3. There are no Terminators or Purifiers in any other GK Company.

Are these three things true or false?

If they are false, then my example stands, and the bottom falls out of your assertions Warboss. If the above statements are false, then Belial/Sammy is nothing like Draigo/Crowe/etc.

If the above are false, then Draigo/Crowe give greater access to these units due to their chosen style of warfare, or because of their status (like Grimnar with his extra Wolf Guard). The Deathwing and Ravenwing are not a chosen style of warfare borne of a specific commander’s personal preference or doctrine – they are a standard part of Dark Angel organisation. One should simply be able to play Death/Ravenwing as they would any other army.

Specialist formations based upon the doctrine of a specific commander should require that commander (Kantor tends to go to war with an overrepresentation of Sternguard, as it is his fighting style).

Armies that function independent of that commander should not require that commander in order to be taken (the Deathwing are a type of Dark Angel force, whether Belial is there or not).

   
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Brisbane, Australia

does anyone else get the impression that when they made their land speeder they said "how many guns can we cram onto this bad boy?"

 
   
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Fickle Fury of Chaos




Portland, OR

But thats kinda the whole deal for the first company, A libby and chapliain are not the company commanders and probably would not lead the entire first company to battle while the commander sits this one out. The standard army list handles this perfectly with you able to take a Librarian HQ, termie command squad, and up to 3 deathwing squads. but your going to have to bring along some tacticals or scouts as backup.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

Actually, HBMC, you have it backwards according to DA fluff. ravenwing and Deathwing, like standard chapters, are there to support the Battle companies. If there are Fallen around, the Battle Companies are there for support, unknowingly. The only times either goes to war en masse without battle company support is under their company masters or Azrael. And then, it's generally for a select mission, most likely involving a known Fallen who is especially dangerous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 23:54:54


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 warboss wrote:
I don't really see any difference between your counterpoint example special characters and Belial. Draigo brings lots of Paladins because he's the chapter master and in charge of them similar to how Belial does. Crowe is the master of Purifiers and gets lots of them but likely so did every single master of purifiers before him. The Grey Knights don't have purifiers because of Crowe just like the Dark Angels don't have a Deathwing because of Belial. Everything you said about the DA characters works the same as for the characters you're ok with. The formations and the characters that lead them are intrinsicly linked.


I’ll admit I haven’t looked too deeply into this, so please correct these statements if they are false:

1. The Grey Knights have a First Company of nothing but Terminators, led by Draigo.
2. The Grey Knights have a specialist company of nothing but Purifiers, led by Crowe.
3. There are no Terminators or Purifiers in any other GK Company.



Okay: So lets continue with this:

1st company is comprised entirely of Terminators called deathwings lead by Belial
2nd company is comprised entirely of Bikes called ravenwings and lead by Sammy

so: No other company contains Ravenwings and Deathwings.

Thats the way the Dark Angels are organized. even if Grey Knights don't have a similar organization then that's not our issue. Its just that we as Players get the flexibility to have out units working together in smaller groups then the entire chapter as one.

I like to say I have two armies: Necrons, and Imperium.....
 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I’ll admit I haven’t looked too deeply into this, so please correct these statements if they are false:

1. The Grey Knights have a First Company of nothing but Terminators, led by Draigo.
2. The Grey Knights have a specialist company of nothing but Purifiers, led by Crowe.
3. There are no Terminators or Purifiers in any other GK Company.

Are these three things true or false?
I believe if you correct "Terminators" to "Paladin Terminators" then yes, those three things are true. Also if you are going to write a post that long it would probably help to look slightly deeply into it.

Purifier and Paladin orders are separate from the standard 8 brotherhoods, just like the Ravenwing and Deathwing are separate from the standard 8 companies.

Either you should become mad at the GK special character unlock system or become unmad at the DA special character unlock system.

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 lord of corn wrote:
But thats kinda the whole deal for the first company, A libby and chapliain are not the company commanders and probably would not lead the entire first company to battle while the commander sits this one out. The standard army list handles this perfectly with you able to take a Librarian HQ, termie command squad, and up to 3 deathwing squads. but your going to have to bring along some tacticals or scouts as backup.


And you keep assuming I'm talking about fielding the Deathwing 'en masse'. I'm not. I'm takling about fielding the Deathwing in general, and in smaller games. I'm not takling about fielding the whole 100(ish) members as a single force, just a small strike force. Belial leads every Deathwing force to every mission, regardless of size?

 Platuan4th wrote:
Actually, HBMC, you have it backwards according to DA fluff. ravenwing and Deathwing, like standard chapters, are there to support the Battle companies.


What? Where did I say that the Battle Companes support the Death/Ravenwing?

The closest I've come to that is:

"What if I’m representing a small seconded force attached to a larger Dark Angel force (say, 3 squads of Deathwing, a pair of Land Raiders, a Dread, and a Command Squad working alongside 1 and a half regular Marine companies, something we see all the time in the fluff)."

I've bolded the really important word in the above sentence. Seconded. As in brought into support the larger regular Marine force.

   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And you keep assuming I'm talking about fielding the Deathwing 'en masse'. I'm not. I'm takling about fielding the Deathwing in general, and in smaller games. I'm not takling about fielding the whole 100(ish) members as a single force, just a small strike force. Belial leads every Deathwing force to every mission, regardless of size?
You know you can field Deathwing without Belial right? In fact your terminator librarian it seems can lead 20 Deathwing terminators (assuming command squad can take TDA, otherwise 15 terminators max) by himself, though he will be required to also take 10 scouts or tacticals. No Belial required. Belial IS required if you want more than 20-25 (assuming again TDA command squad, otherwise 15) terminators in an army, and at that volume of Deathwing deployed does not not justify having their commander lead them?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/10 00:07:00


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Fargo, ND USA

Second half of my post adresses that. When I say you have it backwards, I meant with regards to how common you seem to believe these strike forces occur. The point I'm stressing is that, according to Dark Angels battle doctrine, they're actually exceedingly rare in terms of how often the Angels fight and that when they DO happen, it's led by their respective Master or Azrael in times of dire need.

Also, sorry I'm not quote responding or if I seem blunt, have to use my phone thanks to getting my house ready for moving.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 00:08:06


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Riverside CA

 ph34r wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And you keep assuming I'm talking about fielding the Deathwing 'en masse'. I'm not. I'm takling about fielding the Deathwing in general, and in smaller games. I'm not takling about fielding the whole 100(ish) members as a single force, just a small strike force. Belial leads every Deathwing force to every mission, regardless of size?
You know you can field Deathwing without Belial right? In fact your terminator librarian it seems can lead 20 Deathwing terminators (assuming command squad can take TDA, otherwise 15 terminators max) by himself, though he will be required to also take 10 scouts or tacticals. No Belial required. Belial IS required if you want more than 20-25 (assuming again TDA command squad, otherwise 15) terminators in an army, and at that volume of Deathwing deployed does not not justify having their commander lead them?

Unless its a double FOC!

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The closest I've come to that is:

"What if I’m representing a small seconded force attached to a larger Dark Angel force (say, 3 squads of Deathwing, a pair of Land Raiders, a Dread, and a Command Squad working alongside 1 and a half regular Marine companies, something we see all the time in the fluff)."

I've bolded the really important word in the above sentence. Seconded. As in brought into support the larger regular Marine force.
That would be represented by your taking 3 elite slots of terminators, a dreadnought, 2 land raiders, and your HQ with command squad.

Also the force you describe would be guaranteed over 2000 points, so the FOC is not stopping you.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Unless its a double FOC!
Indeed, you ninja'd my post by moments

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 00:09:52


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Fair enough Platuan4th.

But even still, wouldn't it just be better overall to allow those who want to play Death/Ravenwing to do so, and have the special characters provide a benefit to those that take that sort of army rather than those characters becoming the only way to field that army in the first place?

To me this is a lot like the "Why don't GW do a clear, concise and balanced (as possible) set of rules?"[i] arguments where people say [i]"Well us casual gamers don't need that!", and people respond with "Yes but clear, concise rules benefit everyone." Death/Ravenwing without requiring Belial/Sammy wouldn’t stop those people that bring him from doing so, so why would it matter to them?

 ph34r wrote:
... though he will be required to also take 10 scouts or tacticals...


At which point it ceases to be a Deathwing army. You get that, right? I mean, you are cognisant of the fact that I'm talking about a 100% Termy/Land Raider/Dread army, the way it was in the 3rd Ed Codex, right?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/10 00:22:54


   
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Riverside CA

I am a disappointed that a Company Master can’t unlock Terminators or Bikes, but then again I have not seen any thing that says its not happening. If it does not happen, it does not happen.
I was hoping for Jet Bikes, but it did not happen.
I am still waiting to see information on Veterans and Tactical Squads. I don’t know if this means anything but but you can buy the veterans pack under both Elites and Troops.

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Indiana

They covered things like this with blood angels. Their assault marines are still same in regards to chapter organization. However they have so many that they reach the level to be considered a mainstay of any force the blood angels deploy.

Crowe goes to the battlefield with mainly purifiers. As such the mainstay of the army is going to be purifiers. Pedro while not making them troops make sternguard scoring because they are the backbone of the force when they are present. Bikes in space marines are because a captain on bike is likely to have a force with a higher than normal number of bikes.

A regular force is not going to have a significant battle presence from deathwing or ravenwing. However when the captains of that company take the field they will. Troops represent the mainstay of the force those commanders would typical bring to the field. As such having them as troops would not make sense. They can still be there in smaller numbers, but not to the point where they are the base component of the army. Azrael can unlock both because he can always call on everything at the chapters disposal so his forces will be the elite. Which is the same trend seen elsewhere

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 00:34:56


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Fargo, ND USA

Overall, I agree with you, HBMC. I'd love to field my Deathwing led by a Libby or Chappy. I rarely ever find the points at 2k after 15 Termies and 3 Land Raiders in addition to Belial. It just doesn't bother me anymore since I know GW isn't gonna change it and I know the fluff behind why. Saw the writing on the wall the first time a codex did it in 4th.

Also, my group is flexible enough to allow me to do it if I ask, so not really an issue except at stores(if I go to one).

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Portland, OR

I didnt see this posted over here


From Chizal on warseer

chapter standard is all units within 12 get to reroll all morale and pinning checks and +1a to his unit
then the lesser ones have those rules split up.
ravenwing lets them autopass hit and run and roll an extra d6 for distance.
Company standard is 12" rerollorale & pinning.
Deathwing one is 6" +1a to all inner circle.

Then theres the daddy standards. one per army.
All have the 12" morale pinning rule then either;
All units in 12 get counter attack or
all in 12 get fnp or
all boltguns in 6 get salvo 2/4

Edit salvo effect is only within 6"


Tactical squads backed up by a command squad with standard of devastation and a librarian sporting Divination are frickin lawnmowers.
   
 
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