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 matphat wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
And I will be surprised if the new Codex prices plus obscene Terminator/Speeder/Talon price increases will not have serious negative impact on sales and people starting an army.

I could not agree more. I was seriously considering starting DA as my second army, after two years with Orks. Then I saw the prices and just started laughing.
I'm 41, my career pays well, and I could afford it, but I'll be damned if I'm paying those prices.
I still have my gaming money in my pocket because a $75 flyer is far outside my value system.

Same here. I bought Dark Vengeance, and was interested in starting both DA and Chaos, until I saw the prices. Also, GW seems to be more interested in making giant new units instead of retooling old units that are in dire need of an upgrade. I passed on the Hobbit as well.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

yeah,

 pretre wrote:

SabrX wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I concur
The Sisters rules made people happy.

You are kidding, right?

I am very happy with the SOB WD codex. I'm not happy that I had to make my own PDF from my copy but oh well.

I think we have the same appreciation of WD published rules.

No one expects a full codex in WD.
Codex SOB enables people to play Sisters sans 3rd ed codex Witch Hunters
Most people think the codex is OK

I think it's sad that the codex and small rules add ons are not made into PDFs 2 months after WD publication.
they did it with the eldar night spinner... so why not the ork Bomber?
the only answer is greed to sell the iBomber rules


To cut this great content completely would be wrong!
It will take WD in the opposite direction to the direction the fans want/ cry for!!

Panic...

So a company sells a model, and releases free rules...

Sales happen.

Company sells another model and releases purchase only rules.

Sales still happen.

Unless sales drastically dropped... why would a company turn down free money to make a bunch of people who still buy your product but cry about it while forking over their money happy?

The only thing they listen to is lack of sales... Looks like the Nightspinner free rules compared to the Bommer irules only shows GW has no incentive to release free rules and the customers are all happy... Purchases do not allow for 'I will pay full price but draw a frownie face on my money'.

If sales actually suffered, the PDFs would have been posted to the website immediately and they would have had a month focusing on how the rules are free so buy 3 dakkajets today!

yeah,

nkelsch wrote:
...The only thing they listen to is lack of sales... Looks like the Nightspinner free rules compared to the Bommer irules only shows GW has no incentive to release free rules and the customers are all happy....

Not a fair comparison because the Nightspinner is dual kit with the prism which has rules in eldar codex..
None of the Ork jets are available in the Ork codex.

But I accept your point.. your probabily right!

It's weird that they would risk damaging sales for the sake of a 3 page pdf !
Most of the iPad content is just photos of jets. plus 3pages of rules (updated) from WD

Panic...

 Panic wrote:

It's weird that they would risk damaging sales for the sake of a 3 page pdf !
Most of the iPad content is just photos of jets. plus 3pages of rules (updated) from WD

Panic...

But if it actually 'damaged' sales, it is also an easy repair... They released them with a WD which peopel could buy... and so most of the original bulk got the WD.

Now people stragling in, they have to see if it shows those kits sell worse than others due to not being available. I am sure they have that data, and if they saw a drop, the PDFs would immediatly show up.

But also remember, since PDFs go directly into your iBook bookshelf, it would almost immediatly destroy all market for the digital rules. I do not feel that people would pay the 5.99$ for the 3D pictures and fluff. If they released free rules of all add ons, then they would basically need to conceed that they would release zero rule packs. I mean, look at the warhammer fantasy monster packs?

Not saying I agree that it is 'the best' I just don't see a reason they should change direction on this particular issue if it doesn't impact sales.

Now we may see that not putting them in WD may impact sales WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than not making a free PDF. A lot of people who bought Dakkajets at launch have the WD. If they don't even have the option for that, you may see a totally different customer response. The result may not be free PDFs but may be a return to rules in WD.

GW may have to do a full model release with only Digital rules with zero WD rules to see how that impacts sales before they will believe that there is an issue. If that happened, I would recommend not buying the model regardless how overpowered or cool it is until they get the message.

(if it is an ork release I will be buying it regardless, and that is why GW doesn't care what we think)

nkelsch wrote:
But also remember, since PDFs go directly into your iBook bookshelf, it would almost immediatly destroy all market for the digital rules.

You know what else destroys all market for the digital rules? People getting sick of GW's insane sales strategy and just pirating the rules. So, buy the model, download a scan of the rules, hope that GW someday finally decides to make them available to people who don't buy an ipad.

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
But also remember, since PDFs go directly into your iBook bookshelf, it would almost immediatly destroy all market for the digital rules.

You know what else destroys all market for the digital rules? People getting sick of GW's insane sales strategy and just pirating the rules. So, buy the model, download a scan of the rules, hope that GW someday finally decides to make them available to people who don't buy an ipad.

So "I am going to steal them anyways so make it free" opposed to the "We sell it in a limited media and at least make some money" Especially when sales of the MODEL do not suffer at all with the lack of rule availability.

People with no principals would steal them if it was available everywhere and for a penny. Why cater to them and care what they think?

But you buy the model, GW gets their money... so why should GW care what you think in regards to the rules? People are addicted to GW and continue to give GW money and don't seem to realize the only way GW will realize their model is 'insane' is if they actually don't purchase the models. Otherwise if you continue to purchase, and no drop ins ales occurs with digital iRules only... then it isn't 'insane' at all.

yeah,
They must be able to work out how many ork bombers sold vs how many WD/iPad rule packs have sold.
even if it's as simple as a sample test amognst ork players at a tournament it will show up a percentage of people with printed out pirate PDFs...

This will prove that some people want the bomber but don't have legal access to the rules.
Add to that some people don't pirate and the only conclusion is that some people wont buy the bomber becuase they don't have access to the rules.

It may be a very small slice of their customer base that they don't care enough to help?

Panic...

 pretre wrote:

SabrX wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I concur
The Sisters rules made people happy.

You are kidding, right?

I am very happy with the SOB WD codex. I'm not happy that I had to make my own PDF from my copy but oh well.

Are you more happy with SoB WD codex than codex Witch Hunters?

I certainly wasn't, but to each their own.

nkelsch wrote:
So "I am going to steal them anyways so make it free" opposed to the "We sell it in a limited media and at least make some money" Especially when sales of the MODEL do not suffer at all with the lack of rule availability.

So, how exactly do you know that sales of the model haven't suffered?

And there's a third option here: offer them for sale in a format anyone can use, not just ipad owners. GW has said vague things about expanding to other formats, but until they stop being lazy and get it done they need to just put up a free pdf.

People with no principals would steal them if it was available everywhere and for a penny. Why cater to them and care what they think?

I'm talking about the people who would buy the rules but are forced to pirate them because they don't have an ipad. Since the only non-ipad option is a magazine that immediately sold out anyone who doesn't subscribe to WD (IOW, anyone with any sense at all) has a choice between trying to find a copy on ebay or piracy. And guess which one of those options is more appealing. Oh, and don't bother trying to say that these people don't exist, we've seen the posts from people saying "I wouldn't pirate stuff normally, but I have no choice".

And of course it's worse than just the missed sale of the flyer rules. Once you start pirating rules because GW forces you to it's a lot easier and more appealing to continue pirating rules. So GW loses sales on the flyers and their rules, and probably loses sales of future books as well.

jah-joshua wrote:
why do most posters seem to miss, or not care, that the iPad is so much more than an ereader?

Because they can already do all those other things you mentioned on their PC, laptop, or phone, and so have no use for an overpriced gadget that has the primary function of being able to wave it around to show people that you have one?

I don't need an iPad. Outside of GW's digital releases, I simply have no practical use for one that isn't already covered by a device I already own.

If GW had released all of their codexes in a standard ebook format, I would have bought them in a heartbeat, to drop them onto my kobo or phone to carry to games. But releasing them in a format exclusive to Apple devices just so they can add a bunch of features that I neither want nor need means a big ol' meh from me.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus iTunes is a virus, and should never be installed on any system.

I was just about to say the exact same thing myself. Word for word.

Immature apple bashing is immature.

We're here to bag on white dwarf. Save your "Im a peecee enthoosiast" attitude for another forum.

Uh... no. It's not Apple bashing. iTunes is a legitimately horrible program. It uses far more resources than it should, the way it tags metadata is horribly annoying, and actually getting the program off your computer is an exercise in frustration. Not to mention the way Apple uses it to push their other software incessantly.

 jah-joshua wrote:

Davor wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I understand that 'hit them in the pocketbook' is the conventional wisdom, but do we have any anecdotal evidence that that has ever worked?

Put it this way. Is there an OFFICIAL GW forum? No there is not. Why? Because GW doesn't like the negativity going on. So yes complaining does work. GW solution though? Ignore and make sure nobody reads it. So OFFICIAL forums are gone now.

So you can see how GW handles things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 undertow wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

Go for a previous model? Are you serious? I am sure it was said that the previous models don't work and you NEED the CURRENT model for it to work.

i have the first generation iPad, and all of the products work just fine on mine, books, codex, and mag....
so, no, you do not need the current model to get the flyer rules...
that would be insane...

cheers
jah

Thanks, good to know. Maybe I will look for one now and see if I can get a good deal.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
We're here to bag on white dwarf. Save your "Im a peecee enthoosiast" attitude for another forum.

The only person mentioning PC's so far is you Scip. Projecting much?

And Fafnir covered the rest, especially the "getting it off your computer" part, which is why I called it a virus.

 Flashman wrote:
WoC have been confirmed as being released on a Friday as opposed to Saturday (through the WD announcement on the main page).

So people who order it can get it delivered on a Friday (when most postal services are working) as opposed to releasing it on a Saturday (when most postal services are not working). Nothing was more stupid that pre-ordering a book and having it ship on the Friday, so that it doesn't arrive 'til the following Monday, meaning you can't use it during the weekend. As a strategy to get us into stores to buy it it was insultingly stupid, even more stupid when you don't have any stores near you.

This is a change for the good, assuming it's a real change.

 Panic wrote:
Most people think the codex is OK

I know only one person who thinks it's okay.

And that's pretre.

 Flashman wrote:
Did anyone note the very subtle change in GW preview policy today?

WoC have been confirmed as being released on a Friday as opposed to Saturday (through the WD announcement on the main page).

What are they thinking?! Surely showing us Dragon Ogres a day early will kill sales?

MADNESS! Nothing good shall come of this!

 Fafnir wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus iTunes is a virus, and should never be installed on any system.

I was just about to say the exact same thing myself. Word for word.

Immature apple bashing is immature.

We're here to bag on white dwarf. Save your "Im a peecee enthoosiast" attitude for another forum.

Uh... no. It's not Apple bashing. iTunes is a legitimately horrible program. It uses far more resources than it should, the way it tags metadata is horribly annoying, and actually getting the program off your computer is an exercise in frustration. Not to mention the way Apple uses it to push their other software incessantly.

You could just...not open it. I use it to transfer things to my ipod and while it takes far too long to load, if I don't touch it it leaves me alone. It's a lot like bears in that respect.

Can you download from the istore using anything other than iTunes?

The big complaint I have about the iPad codex thing is the fact that they don't have a link to it on the GW website, making it kind of pointless. How is a person who goes to Games-Workshop.com to know that Sisters even HAVE a codex?

Every other section has an Army Essentials section with a codex and maybe a battleforce. Sisters don't. I haven't been able to find a reference on their website that shows where to find it, and the only actual mention of the codex itself is hidden in the FAQ, and there isn't any indication that it is for sale.

This is just incompetence. I mean sure the codex is BAD, but apparently it's so bad they don't even want to let people know it's for sale.

 insaniak wrote:
Can you download from the istore using anything other than iTunes?

No.

 Melissia wrote:
I mean sure the codex is BAD, but apparently it's so bad they don't even want to let people know it's for sale.

Exactly, that's the whole point. GW doesn't want you to buy SoB right now (though they'll take your money if you insist), they want you to buy all of the latest space marines now (helpful bundle! buy now and save 0%!) and then buy your SoB army later when they re-release everything at a 300% price increase.


(Hey, when the alternative explanation is "GW knows less about how to run a business than the average 15 year old GW customer" it HAS to be the right answer.)

yeah,

 Melissia wrote:

 Panic wrote:
Most people think the codex is OK

I know only one person who thinks it's okay.

And that's pretre.

I've been playing against it, and while i'm no 40k mastermind IMO it's a pretty fething good codex.

Maybe aribtorIan is a 40k tactics genius and/or the WD codex is actually usable, but he has used that codex and limited himself to options that worked as Arbites!
and he still did very well at a fething brutal tournament.... he ended up in the top 10%
... but do you expect more from a article in an amazine/catalo..../yawn*

Panic...

 insaniak wrote:
Can you download from the istore using anything other than iTunes?

Yes. You dont even have to open itunes unless you really want to. The in built "app store"-application on the iPad downloads stuff and lets you browse your regions itunes store. Buying and downloading stuff.

 Panic wrote:
yeah,

 Melissia wrote:

 Panic wrote:
Most people think the codex is OK

I know only one person who thinks it's okay.

And that's pretre.

I've been playing against it, and while i'm no 40k mastermind IMO it's a pretty fething good codex.

Maybe aribtorIan is a 40k tactics genius and/or the WD codex is actually usable, but he has used that codex and limited himself to options that worked as Arbites!
and he still did very well at a fething brutal tournament.... he ended up in the top 10%
... but do you expect more from a article in an amazine/catalo..../yawn*

Panic...

The issue isn't that it's competitive (it is) the issue is similar to Nids or IG. They have crap internal balance. There will be one ok unit, one decent unit, one amazing unit, and the rest will be crap.

For every exorcist you have pentitent engines for example. It's like with IG how every fast attack choice gets ragged on because its not a vendetta.

Every codex is competitive if played right.

But the Sisters codex basically had one big flaw-- it was boring. It added nothing new and removed a lot of fun things, and had even less variety than C:WH.

Re: sob wd codex

Yes, I like it more than codex witch hunters but not as much as codex chapter approved.

And if you stopped by the sob thread and were civil, M, you'd see there are tons I people who enjoy the new wd codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
basically had one big flaw-- it was boring. It added nothing new and removed a lot of fun things.

Biting tongue...

Say what you want, pretre, but if you try to say that it did not take away a lot of options, you would be very wrong.

 insaniak wrote:

jah-joshua wrote:
why do most posters seem to miss, or not care, that the iPad is so much more than an ereader?

Because they can already do all those other things you mentioned on their PC, laptop, or phone, and so have no use for an overpriced gadget that has the primary function of being able to wave it around to show people that you have one?

I don't need an iPad. Outside of GW's digital releases, I simply have no practical use for one that isn't already covered by a device I already own.

If GW had released all of their codexes in a standard ebook format, I would have bought them in a heartbeat, to drop them onto my kobo or phone to carry to games. But releasing them in a format exclusive to Apple devices just so they can add a bunch of features that I neither want nor need means a big ol' meh from me.

i respect your "big ol' meh", and i'm a huge fan of your conversions, insaniak...
that said, i don't think the iPad is "an overpriced gadget that has the primary function of being able to wave it around to show people that you have one?"
this is a very personal situation, and opinion, but it is great for me...
living in a small village in Mexico, i would have to wait until someone is coming to visit in order to get books...
now, i get them anytime, thanks to the iPad...

i do have a 17" laptop that made looking at minis, and editing my photos, really nice, until the video card died...
now i have a doorstop until i can track down a whole new motherboard, thanks to some stupid integrated card set-up...
luckily, i have the iPad to get me through until i can track down a motherboard from some place like Hong Kong, because i sure as hell can't find one in Mexico...

plus, mine was a gift from Nike, so it's not like i bought it to flaunt it...
doesn't mean i didn't fall in love with the touchscreen action...
c'mon, it's like having the 40K dataslate i have imagined for 25 years...

i just got the new digital White Dwarf today, by the way...
the WoC stuff looks so crisp, and there is a great UK Golden Demon round-up, plus another Blanchitsu spotlight on our very own PDH...
congrats, mate!!!

cheers
jah

This shouldn't be a big problem. If you don't have to buy copies of WD any more that's money you just saved on buying a WD issue.

Although there may be problems with content delivery. Codexes and FAQs both suck as content delivery platforms since the first is so expensive and slow to release, usually behind the rules curve and the latter is so complicated to keep up with and carry around.

The only th...

Oh you. You almost made me commit one of the three classic blunders. Obviously, never get into a land war in Asia and never get into it with a Sicilian when death is on the line, but slightly less known is 'never discuss sisters of battle with Melissia unless you want a Dakka vacation.