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I'm hoping the AK50 is at least semi-affordable, but it's probably gonna be at least a few grand.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
What state?

ATM Washington State, going to be moving relatively soon though.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's a question: anyone have a Winchester 97 riot? I'm eyeballing one, but I'd like feedback from people who've used one, and a real Winchester, not that Norinco 97 BS.

I used a 1952 made Winchester 97 to win quite a few shotgun competitions in my time.

What are you interested in knowing? Although to be honest my go to is an older 870 with Magpul furniture or a 1301 semi.

That being said the Norinco guns are generally good. About the only bad one was the run of incorrectly heat treated M14 knockoffs. My 1911 runs like a sewing machine, many older 1911 race guns are built on Norinco platforms, my friends AR15 11.5 SBR runs amazingly as did his 16" AR. My other friends Type 56 and Type 56-2 work well.

While it isn't the same as their guns my Saiga AK103 has only ever been fed Norinco steel case M43 ammo.

Kayback wrote:

I used a 1952 made Winchester 97 to win quite a few shotgun competitions in my time.

If it's 1952 made that's the Winchester 97 Standard, not the 97 Riot. The one I'm looking at is Riot. It's the Police version of the Winchester 97 Trench Gun, so similar to that, but without the bayonet lug or heat shield.

She's got a shorter barrel than the standard, and no choke, so her spread will be wider.

It you had the take down version though, that might be useful, how is it mechanically? I've heard it's dependable, but...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

It you had the take down version though, that might be useful, how is it mechanically? I've heard it's dependable, but...

D'oh I skipped over the "Riot" part and went with 1897. Sorry.

Yeah it was the Takedown version. Mechanically it was great. The single action bar may cause some concern but I used one for about 7 years, in various sports (SADPA DMG, IPSC Shotgun, Cowboy Action Shooting) and never had an issue with it. You can speed load with it, the one I had could slam fire (If that's what you want) and it fed everything reliably. You can also mitigate the shorter cylinder bore by using 2 3/4" 00 buckshot with Flight Control Wad. It'll run more accurately than anything anyone using an 1897 in war ever used. Of course pattern your gun and make sure it like it. I'm currently using a cylinder bore Maverick M88 with an 18.5" barrel and it is just as accurate as you need it to be. With even budget ammo it patterns OK, and with slugs it's a laser device. Out to 35m. Personally I wouldn't like to use a shotgun at 50m+ so am happy with what it does especially with FCW.

The one I used was well maintained and had a very slick, well looked after action. The solid lifter made it easier to feed than some modern slotted lifters. I've had a shell get stuck under my 870 lifter and it was a bitch to remove, especially on the clock.

What are you wanting the Riot for? The 1897 is light and fairly slimline but I'd go for a more modern action for pretty much every application I can think of.

Kayback wrote:

What are you wanting the Riot for? The 1897 is light and fairly slimline but I'd go for a more modern action for pretty much every application I can think of.

A combination of personal preferences and a family friend's recommendation. He had positive experiences with the Trench in combat, but looking at them, the prices are too high, but the Riot is functionally very similar and a lot less expensive on the market.

There are parts of my house that are extreme close quarters, so that 20 inch barrel, ease of reloading, and the ability to slam fire has it's perks. We did some testing and a handgun round will penetrate the interior walls, so I'm looking into shotguns. My old Bay State isn't going to cut it for home defense around here.

Buckshot will penetrate most whatever a handgun will. It’s mostly a myth that shotguns can’t penetrate walls. At least the interior walls of houses anyway.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Buckshot will penetrate most whatever a handgun will. It’s mostly a myth that shotguns can’t penetrate walls. At least the interior walls of houses anyway.

That is why you get an automatic shotgun and load it only with bird shot. Yeah you won't kill the home intruder on the first 3-5 shots, but after 8-10 they are going to wish they were dead

 Grey Templar wrote:
Buckshot will penetrate most whatever a handgun will. It’s mostly a myth that shotguns can’t penetrate walls. At least the interior walls of houses anyway.

That depends on your load and your walls. But then, that's true of anything. Certain interior walls in my parents house have stopped grapeshot.

But generally slam firing birdshot into someone takes a lot of the fight out of them at close range.

I'm not going to take the chance on the possibility that it just makes them mad. If I'm taking my shotgun against an intruder, they're getting law enforcement grade 00 buck.

Of course my guns that are always ready to go are the 1911 and AK.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm not going to take the chance on the possibility that it just makes them mad.

The longest engagement range in my house is ten feet. At that range, bird shot is going to do the job just fine. (Hilariously, Winchester has rediscovered the buck-and-ball load preferred by Union soldiers with Muskets in the form of their PDX1 shell, which would be my go-to if I wasn't worried about blowing holes in the place.)

Got a brief trip to the indoor range in last week - All ranges are now shutting down again for England's month-long lockdown.

My 10/22 "Target Tactical" and SMLE trainer rifle (1943 Lithgow, converted to No 2 Mk IV* in 1949).

Awesome, looks like fun. Are outdoor ranges available or will they be closed as well?

I spent last sunday at a quarry banging through a range of soviet surplus as well as the running Aug and Tavor, but sadly didn't get any pics. Found that trying to dig steel targets into rock quarry floor doesn't work so well

That's a nice looking SMLE. All the ones we have here in the states look like they were drug all the way over here.

Home defense is the tried and true AR-15. Haven't really done much to it besides a rail system, basic sites (iron...well plastic but you get the point) and a sling. At most im going to put a forward grip and call it a done deal.

Going to get the pistol soon, maybe this weekend, and after that I have to go find a lever action 30 30.

Vaktathi wrote:Awesome, looks like fun. Are outdoor ranges available or will they be closed as well?

I spent last sunday at a quarry banging through a range of soviet surplus as well as the running Aug and Tavor, but sadly didn't get any pics. Found that trying to dig steel targets into rock quarry floor doesn't work so well

Outdoor ranges closed as well :(

Did you forget to take your jackhammer?

Gadzilla666 wrote: That's a nice looking SMLE. All the ones we have here in the states look like they were drug all the way over here.

It's quite a nice one, Australian coachwood stock, all the right Australian bits and pieces. Shame I can't shoot it all that well, my eyes really struggle with open sights, do much better with an aperture, or a scope for preference!

Unfortunately my interests are more in the historic line, so a lot of them do have open sights...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Kayback wrote:

What are you wanting the Riot for? The 1897 is light and fairly slimline but I'd go for a more modern action for pretty much every application I can think of.

A combination of personal preferences and a family friend's recommendation. He had positive experiences with the Trench in combat, but looking at them, the prices are too high, but the Riot is functionally very similar and a lot less expensive on the market.

There are parts of my house that are extreme close quarters, so that 20 inch barrel, ease of reloading, and the ability to slam fire has it's perks. We did some testing and a handgun round will penetrate the interior walls, so I'm looking into shotguns. My old Bay State isn't going to cut it for home defense around here.

Ehhh. Birdshot is best for birds. It *can* work at close range but I'd be more comfortable running a low number buckshot like #4 at a minimum. Birdshot lacks penetration and people's vitals are burried fairly deep. I'd also go Flight Control Wad.

Personally I'd buy a Mossberg 500 or an older Remington 870 Police Magnum (or even Wingmaster). The 1897 is a decently effective gun but it is a dated design. I'm a strong proponent of getting a light on a gun and reducing a shotgun's LOP as much as comfortable. Magpuls furniture means you can do it easily. The 18.5" barrels available are a handy package, and you can Gussy it up.

However I'm against the idea of shotgun's for HD for any reason except cost, and getting a shotgun into a decent level is likely to be expensive anyway. As for ease of loading, that takes practice. I have competed with shotgun's for years and am still slow on reloads. Rifles and pistols reload much quicker and can be stored loaded safer. Slam fire brings a whole stack of issues itself. As a civilian in a letigious setting I want to be in control of every single projectile I launch. Shotguns with shot and super rapid fire are the antithesis of that. My shotgun is ready to go if I want it too but it's also behind my AK-103 in my safe.

I also prefer the AR for home defense, specifically a short AR. It's nice for rounding corners and imo beats the hell out of a long ass shotgun.

The only sort of shotgun I would say is on par with an AR/AK of some kind for home defense would be a mag-fed semi-auto shotgun like a Saiga. Or, if you're gonna get weird, a DP-12 where you have 2 trigger pulls worth of shots before needing to pump, its also a nice compact bullpup length. On top of having 14+2 rounds to play with, so you mostly dispense with the possibility of needing to reload under stress. Only real downside is it is heavy af.

Mostly for the cool factor I am considering a DP-12 as my next gun purchase. Favorite gun in PUBG and its just so badass in both look, function, and concept. Plus its one of the few firearms you can get in CA without neutering it.

I don't really keep firearms with the idea of "home defense" for the most part these days, as in my current abode, the options of entry are a balcony 3 floors above a steep embankment overlooking a busy city street, and anything coming through the front isn't going to leave time to grab and load a firearm, nor offer enough distance such that any encounter would be out of arms reach.

That said, if I were to designate anything I own for such these days, it'd have to be the Tavor. I wasn't expecting that when I bought it, but after slapping a Holosun510c on there (as an effective sighting system that'll work in the dark and with both eyes open while offering a huge eyebox without having to center one's eye through a tube), that weapon can be wielded one handed very effectively (allowing one to open a door, operate a vehicle, use a phone or type on a computer, push someone away, etc) and can be maneuvered in close quarters (such as within doorways) very capably, with greater kinetic energy than a handgun would offer.

It would not be my choice if I had to lots of competitive shooting, the mag change mechanism pretty much kills that rifle as a 3gun platform for example, but it's a great "inside" gun.

With regards to shotguns, I'm not such a huge fan as HD weapons within the context of where I live. First and foremost, minimum 18" barrel length for most people is just going to make them big and unwieldy in many situations. Second, most shotguns are either pump operated or have very little capacity, and under stress most people (without extensive training and experence) will probably short stroke a 5 round tube at least once in my experience (myself included), and I'm not comfortable with just a side by side or over-under. Semiautos solve the last, but not so much the first, I've got a VEPR12, and it's a neat gun, but it's huge and does not maneuver well indoors at all. Now, a shorty semi-auto? That may be something to talk about, but they're something of rare breed.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Now, a shorty semi-auto? That may be something to talk about, but they're something of rare breed.

I think someone does a shorty version of a semi-auto Mossberg, and I think someone else does a Mag conversion kit for it. So, you could have a 12 inch barrel (stockless of course), semi-auto with detachable magazine. 8+1 12 gauge in a compact package would be quite intimidating.

I'd still prefer a shoulder braced weapon and if you're SBSing you may as well SBR a rifle. An AR "pistol" with a brace would be better IMHO. Lighter, handier, less user manipulation and 20 rounds on tap (if using shorty mags for weight saving).

IMHO a shotgun is NOT a beginner's weapon. While it's easy enough to not short stroke a shotgun with *some* constant practice getting fast and reliable as well as having good recoil cobtrol requires a lot of practice. A rifle requires less. Both require a bit of familiarity if you have a stoppage, a rifle generally has less ways of going wrong.

If you just want a shotgun for shooting stuff then an 1897 doesn't really have any drawback. It can shoot well, it is light enough to be carried if needed, it can launch decent loads, reloads ok if you know what you're doing, is fun as heck to slam fire for giggles.

But for the same average price right now you can buy a police trade in Remington 870 Police Magnum, produced in 2004 which was pre Freedom purchase of Remington so a good one, in SBS configuration $499 on Gunbroker buy now. File the SBS paperwork, buy a Magpul stock and profit. Send it to Vang for a makeover and you'll be having an epic fighting shotgun. Something you can do piece by piece for the 870 but can't ever really do with the 1897.

A semi auto traditional shotgun like the 1301 can minimize some drawbacks but introduces others, mostly capacity and feeding it. Now you're not *likely* to need more than a handful of shotgun shots to solve most problems needing a gun, but if you do you want a gun that's easy to reload. Shotguns can be topped up but it isn't an easy skill.

Well, you’ve all had a break from my idiot asks. But now I’m back with another.

Amongst your collection, what would you say your most extravagant gun is?

I’m not gonna set any parameters, because I don’t know enough to do so. Just figured it might be an interesting topic.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, you’ve all had a break from my idiot asks. But now I’m back with another.

Amongst your collection, what would you say your most extravagant gun is?

I’m not gonna set any parameters, because I don’t know enough to do so. Just figured it might be an interesting topic.

If we're going to classify "extravagant" by initial cost...probably the Steyr Aug



If we're going to go by "doodads and hoops and weirdness", it's going to be my shorty AR. I built it very much wanting a Ghost In The Shell-esque range toy. This thing was originally build in pieces as a pistol with a brace and a binary trigger, acting being as something of a middle finger to the NFA being both short barreled (but without a stock) and not being full auto but definitely not being what most people associated as being semi-automatic either. It since got paper'd as a legal SBR for the stock. It's also built in a niche caliber (300 blackout) that's expensive to shoot but designed for very short barrels. A pure moneysink, but a lot of fun.

That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, you’ve all had a break from my idiot asks. But now I’m back with another.

Amongst your collection, what would you say your most extravagant gun is?

I’m not gonna set any parameters, because I don’t know enough to do so. Just figured it might be an interesting topic.

1813 Sutton in .69 cal. Its a 1795 Contract gun, used by Perry's troops during the war of 1812, used again in the Mexican War, then converted to percussion and then captured in the Battle of Fort Donelson, when it became a war trophy in a GAR hall for a century or so.

It doesn't get fired much.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, you’ve all had a break from my idiot asks. But now I’m back with another.

Amongst your collection, what would you say your most extravagant gun is?

I’m not gonna set any parameters, because I don’t know enough to do so. Just figured it might be an interesting topic.

1813 Sutton in .69 cal. Its a 1795 Contract gun, used by Perry's troops during the war of 1812, used again in the Mexican War, then converted to percussion and then captured in the Battle of Fort Donelson, when it became a war trophy in a GAR hall for a century or so.

It doesn't get fired much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1795_Musket

Is that it?

Edit:

And this Perry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry

If so, wow.

My .454 Casull Raging Bull.



I have no use for a gun that launches 300grains at 1800fps but it is fun to shoot and I may hunt warthogs with it some day.

My suppressed 15-22 SBR is my other exotic.

 trexmeyer wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1795_Musket

Is that it?

Edit:

And this Perry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry

If so, wow.

That would, in fact, be it. (and yes, that Perry. He stripped every Pittsburgh gunsmith of anything that could shoot before marching to Erie)

It shoots (and feels) like a somewhat lighter Charleville (or at least, compared to mine, which is the 1763 model), though the Confederates put a "French style" percussion conversion on it, but instead of putting a new hammer on it, they put a piece of pipe in the flintlock hammer.

I don't know if it's exotic or not they are, but here are my go-to ARs (which I think anyone still following this thread in 2020 has already seen);



The top one is a SBR in 300 blackout with a 10" barrel and a Recce 7 Suppressor (which fits inside the handguard shroud).

The bottom one is a AR pistol. It's actually pretty similar to the one above it, but 5.56, and I wanted to get a specific color scheme cerakoted for it. I planned to eventually SBR it as well but after using the brace decided not to bother. The muzzle brake is threaded to swap the suppressor back and forth.

I need replacement glass, I want a HS510C to replace at least the bottom one.