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 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
I have no idea how it is in other nations, but in Australia the periodic shooting assessment for the armed forces doesn't check for accuracy at all, but consistency.

Sights and scopes are fragile, and subject to wandering/loosing their zero. But if you can consistently bang shots into the same place (meaning, they land close together, even if not where your point of aim is), you can walk/adjust onto your target.

Rifle qualifications for the Army and Air Force start with "zeroing" your rifle that follows this process. Once you have a group, you adjust the sights so that it is in the center of the target, which a square grid with directions for how to change what.

At that point you do the qualification course, which used to be firing from prone supported (in a foxhole) and then unsupported (on the ground next to it). This changed in recent years to use barriers and obstacles, and on the Air side, some familiarization with fire on the move. I haven't done Army qual since 2000, not sure what it entails today.

Success is measured by total hits at various sized targets where all hits are equal (no bonus for hitting head or center of chest). The Army has wonderful pop-up targets going out to 300 meters, but the Air Force is content to put out a piece of paper at 25 meters with target size representing the various distances. On my most recent trip, it was a steady drizzling rain, rendering the optics almost useless and I shot better using the iron sights (My contemporaries report the same phenomenon - the 'glass' should be easier, but we're so used to the iron, that's what we prefer.)

In terms of carnival games, the same principle would apply if the weapon is consistent. Use a bit of "Kentucky windage" to compensate. I've got some vintage weapons with fixed sights that have that issue.

Huge disadvantage of MAS36 rifles that are supposed to go back to a gunsmith to change the front sight with another one according to the correction you want to make. Not really possible anymore as of today so you need to compensate by yourself, which can be quite difficult at furst but in my expenrience is alright once used to the rifle. Oviously the further the target, the tinier it gets, and the harder it becomes to evaluate what compensation to apply. As far as close up targets are concerned that should be dead easy.

Well, in theory you should only have to zero a rifle to one distance. 100m or 50m. Whatever the battle zero you want to be. I usually do 100m.

Then once you have accomplished that you can simply use the elevation adjustments on the rifle to hit further targets as the windage shouldn't change unless your sights are utterly borked.

these rifles are actually factory zeroed so they can't really adapt to the shooter. So you might have to compensate at any distance.

Was that the one that had a bag of different sights and you tried different ones at the factory until you found one that fitted how the rifle shot? I do love stuff that reveals how the military thinks about an individual rifleman and where the effort goes in the military machine, vs what popular culture shows you about them and key men turning the tide of the film

This is the one!

Could be worse, could be forced to go to a clockmaker to replace your sights.

Otoh the sights on the gun i am thinking about were actually amazing.

What gun are you thinking of?

SG 57.
For you F ass 57.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_510

The sights were complicated, let's leave it at that. But darn are they accurate. Problem is though when you had to replace a part the logistics officers place looked like a clockmakers workshop.

Actually never ever heard of this rifle! thanks for sharing. The article's picture of swiss bycile infantry is priceless btw


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, did you retain your service weapon? You may ahve said it earilier in the trrhead but can't be sure.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Actually never ever heard of this rifle! thanks for sharing. The article's picture of swiss bycile infantry is priceless btw


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, did you retain your service weapon? You may ahve said it earilier in the trrhead but can't be sure.

Thank god i was merely fodder with the modern rifle which after getting civilianised i kept. Those bycicles are the horror... especially in hilly and mountainous terrain. Granted those were way before it was my time to crawl through mud but they are nowadays common enough for certain hipsters to use.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Thank god i was merely fodder with the modern rifle which after getting civilianised i kept. Those bycicles are the horror... especially in hilly and mountainous terrain. Granted those were way before it was my time to crawl through mud but they are nowadays common enough for certain hipsters to use.

I can only imagine how miserable doing "bicycle repair drill" would have been on top of weapon cleaning. I saw a Danish movie about their brief participation in World War II and there was an (I assume) reasonably accurate recreation of everyone making a tire flat, then repairing it.

The coolest thing about the film was the light AT gun mounted on a motorcycle sidecar. 40k attack bike ftw!

Not even near the rocket launcher on a vespa motorbike

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Not even near the rocket launcher on a vespa motorbike

In the movie the motorcycle troops were as you would expect - not willing to stick around. Fire a shot, and buzz away, laughing at the bike troops as you go.

TAP 150 FTW

New guns for those interested: looks like Tisas/SDS is making clones of Benelli semi auto shotguns and clones of MP5's for less money. A new MP5 for just over $1000 msrp is darn reasonable.

Also, looks like Taurus actually produced a quality 10mm pistol with their TH10. Comes with two 15 round mags.

From a standard consumer POV? Are they because you’re not paying a Label Premium, or Cheap Because They’re Made From Tinfoil?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
From a standard consumer POV? Are they because you’re not paying a Label Premium, or Cheap Because They’re Made From Tinfoil?

Well, I personally own Their clone of the hk91 and HK93, and have had a chance to compare them to the local gun stores "authentic" versions. The 93 is pretty nice actually, works flawlessly, and accurately. The Hk91 looks a tad rougher around the edges, but is still 100 functional. They are build like a brick, just like the originals, and in fact use A LOT of original surplus parts (new barrels and receivers, naturally). As these are pretty much the same platform as the MP5, I'd say 90% of the markup in price is from the name-brands.

Side note, it is kind of fun having the "fully automatic" position for my safeties, even if all it does is make it a semi-auto when the selector is there.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
From a standard consumer POV? Are they because you’re not paying a Label Premium, or Cheap Because They’re Made From Tinfoil?

That's the trick - figuring out what exactly you are getting. One the one hand, there isn't much left to patent, so most firearm designs are in the public domain. Anyone with tooling can make one.

But, how to separate the wheat from the chaff? The name isn't always a guarantee of quality, particularly if "the brand" has changed hands. Then there's the "no-name but good" thing, which happens often. Plus there are the companies that don't actually make guns, but contract them from other companies using designs from other companies that were modified by still other companies. Can't really go off the name, it really comes down to the individual products.

And yes, I owned a gun like that - the design was a CZ-75 with Israeli modifications made in Turkey for EAA. Felt great in the hand, shot like crap. I didn't own it for long.

Yet I'm told other EAA guns made by other contractors are great! Caveat emptor.

In the case of roller-delay guns like the MP5, the H&K tax comes partly from the hardening used for the receiver and stress-bearing components like the rollers, partly from extremely exacting standards for manufacture (actual H&Ks don't generally have break-in periods like the clones do), partly from paying European wages, and partly because they're not terribly concerned about competition in the civilian market when most of their income comes from gov't contracts.

At one-third the cost of H&K I was happy to roll the dice on an MKE AP5, and it's been flawless thus far, but others have not been so fortunate.

I'm pretty sure all or nearly all of the "real" HK roller delayed guns in the US are from the late 80's and older, as they (and many other similar military style guns) were banned from importation. That led to the third party "parts guns" from places like Century and later to the gun companies opening branch offices in the US. So you can get brand new AKs from Arsenal and K-USA, Tavors and Galils from IWI US, etc. There is an HK USA but they don't sell those particular guns here except for a few in .22LR.

I think the "standard" HK tax on new guns is often worth it. They have a well deserved reputation and most good guns in general are expensive. That said, parts can be exorbitant. I too have a Century HK91 clone I bought before I knew better, and to get an HK bipod on it would cost more than I paid for the rifle. The prices for PSG-1 components are eye watering. And the 80's vintage "real" HKs command collector prices that those guns no longer really warrant on merit alone, IMO.

The "parts guns" places have gotten better over time. Century used to be a joke but is now fairly reputable and their Canik line is highly regarded. Not sure about the other places.

For the new SHOT show stuff, the things I liked most were the Aero and Henry lever actions, and the steel 1911 style 320 grip module. I'm curious how all those budget 2011's will stack up, probably at least one of them will be pretty good!

You can still import HK "pistols" like MP5's without a stock.

 cuda1179 wrote:
You can still import HK "pistols" like MP5's without a stock.

I was not aware of that. Serves me right for acting like the expert!

Have you tried any 3rd party hand guards on your HK91 clone? The one I've tried https://hkparts.net/all-parts/aim-hk-91-g3-7-62x51-308-extended-rifle-length-handguard-m-lok/
rattles around rather sub optimally and before trying to rig something I may try another hg. I really just want to put an mlok bipod I already have on it.

I can't remember where I got it, but I put a quad-picatinny rail on my hk91 clone so I could have a vertical foregrip. It's stayed solid, but I used a liberal amount of loctite too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other news, 20 round drums for 50BMG Berret rifles are now available, lol.

The Lucky Gunner youtube channel had some updates that I found very encouraging. Looks like several manufacturers are pushing into the .32 caliber spectrum, and I'd love to see .32 Magnum going for 50 cents a round. If demand picks up, it should get there.

Beretta's new .32 ACP likewise has my attention. Tip-ups are fun in general, but a 10-shot 32 would be outstanding.

I wonder if these folks are looking at the Euro market, which seems much more friendly to .32s than the Americans.

 cuda1179 wrote:

In other news, 20 round drums for 50BMG Berret rifles are now available, lol.

Because they weren't heavy enough I guess

Nice! Now it'll be worth having got a full auto version

Somehow I think a full auto barret would rip itself apart/

You don't say! You ripped my dream apart

But why would you want that when you could get a browning machinegun?