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The fact the phrase "as close to cost as possible" is used obviously shows they intend to turn a profit on this aswell.

lol.

Don't say I didn't tell you so guys. When I was saying all this before, I got shot down. Now everyone is on the same boat here. I feel real good knowing I paid for an incomplete/lackluster product and now they want to sell me a fixed rulebook to play the game.

Bravo Studio McVey. Bravo. Sell me a broken game and then ask me to buy a fixed copy of the rules.

I could swallow buying the rulebook & cards at COST as a way of them fixing their errors, but any profit made off of this is unacceptable; they already made the profit from me.


Hey Mike, if you read these forums anymore pal, I just want to say that you have let me down enormously after almost two decades of looking up to you and respecting you.

Thanks

I wouldn't be too upset by not getting a printed copy of this version sent for free. Seems this version is getting hammered on the Studio McVey forums so a printed version may have just frustrated you more.




EDIT: Link to forum I mentioned = http://studiomcvey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1173-new-rules-discussion/page__pid__17797__st__20#entry17797

I think McVey need two things fast a community manager somebody responsible for properly communicating with their customers and a quality control manager somebody to make sure all stuff are released properly.....

They should seriously had first release this wait for feedback fix it rerelease, refix it nail it down and then go to printing.

And then discuss on how to introduce the printed version to the myriad of backers.

Edit
I rally hate "manager" titles

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I think McVey need two things fast a community manager somebody responsible for properly communicating with their customers and a quality control manager somebody to make sure all stuff are released properly.....

They should seriously had first release this wait for feedback fix it rerelease, refix it nail it down and then go to printing.

And then discuss on how to introduce the printed version to the myriad of backers.

Edit
I rally hate "manager" titles

Bro, don't you realize, doing things like proofing and play testing rules are very much like common sense?

It is far more appropriate to rush out another set of broken rules and try to grab everyone's money a 2nd time around or rather WASTE OUR TIME, the second time around.

I'm so disappointing every new announcement from this project that reaches me. Studio McVey did an awesome job creating boutique Sci-Fi figures, then they tried to make a game and they put their own good name in the mud, repeatedly.

I got out of this one when I started having issue with the long delays and spastic updates, then CMON's gak that put the bullgak icing on the cake of shame.

Between CMON and them, they both have serious trust issues that they need to fix before i take in another dance with either of them.

Shame too, because personally, I have nothing but high opinion of Mike and Ally's works.

Project Update #94: Rules update redux - updated cards
Posted by CoolMiniOrNot
Based on all your feedback today, we've taken the decision together with CMoN to send all our backers the updated cards together with the wave 2 shipments; this will save you printing out an essential component for gameplay.  Hope that helps and please give us feedback on the revisions - best place to do it would be over at the studiomcvey.com Sedition Wars forums.

- mike

That's all good and it will save them some face at least, but, I repeat this again, shouldn't feedback be send before they go and print the cards?

 Grot 6 wrote:
I got out of this one when I started having issue with the long delays and spastic updates, then CMON's gak that put the bullgak icing on the cake of shame.

Between CMON and them, they both have serious trust issues that they need to fix before i take in another dance with either of them.

Shame too, because personally, I have nothing but high opinion of Mike and Ally's works.

Just out of curiousity, where are the 'trust issues' with CMoN?

Thus far two of their KS projects (Zombicide, Guilds of Cadwallon) shipped on time with few problems.

Seditions Wars and its problems are pretty well documented here.

Relic Knights has been significantly delayed, but per the Soda Pop team, the delays have been on Soda Pop and not CMoN and the number of new sculpts they had to do.

Remember, CMoN is simply the publisher, not the developer, for Sedition Wars.

Still need to think about the game and get some updated rules plays before I jump to any conclusions, but I put together a list of all of the changes I caught, for reference. If something's missing or misinterpreted, let me know...

I'm hoping that I'll get in at least a couple of the revised scenarios in this weekend. I'm worried that SMV may have overcompensated in favor of the Strain...


Re: distribution, not my ideal scenario, but I'm definitely okay with it. Regardless of it being their mistake or not, if it would have not been financially viable, it isn't really an option for them to print them all...

Ooops ninjaed and didnt realised it

 DaveC wrote:

Project Update #94: Rules update redux - updated cards
Posted by CoolMiniOrNot
Based on all your feedback today, we've taken the decision together with CMoN to send all our backers the updated cards together with the wave 2 shipments; this will save you printing out an essential component for gameplay.  Hope that helps and please give us feedback on the revisions - best place to do it would be over at the studiomcvey.com Sedition Wars forums.

- mike

Woah! Didn't see that!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
(and good grief I seem to have scooped DaveC here, I hope he's OK, LOL)

This was hilarious

 DaveC wrote:

Project Update #94: Rules update redux - updated cards
Posted by CoolMiniOrNot
Based on all your feedback today, we've taken the decision together with CMoN to send all our backers the updated cards together with the wave 2 shipments; this will save you printing out an essential component for gameplay.  Hope that helps and please give us feedback on the revisions - best place to do it would be over at the studiomcvey.com Sedition Wars forums.

- mike

It's good that they finally listened to feedback on that. What has made this seem very off-putting from the outside looking in is a few things:

1) How poorly Studio McVey seems to communicate
2) How the buck keeps getting passed / ball dropped between Studio McVey and CMON

"We're not doing a KS"
"We might do a KS but it's not our call"

"Components are not up to standards, sorry, print out your own, not our call"
The fact that they've changed their mind on the above is great, but I think this goes a LONG way towards explaining why Studio McVey is not getting the benefit of the doubt that Dreamforge is. They're not taking responsibility for the campaign, and the ball is being dropped between them and CMON.

If you're the artist, you (imo) DO have control of things. If Mike McVey really didn't want another kickstarter, he could say so. Would CMON really launch with his saying he wasn't onboard?

I know artists sometimes sign over too many rights to distributors, but it's his product. He needs to take responsibility for it, it's development, and most importantly, communicating his vision for it (both to CMON and to fans/backers).

Not wanting to come off too harsh here, but I just see so many excuses here and it makes no sense to me to approach things that way.

 RiTides wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
(and good grief I seem to have scooped DaveC here, I hope he's OK, LOL)

This was hilarious

 DaveC wrote:

Project Update #94: Rules update redux - updated cards
Posted by CoolMiniOrNot
Based on all your feedback today, we've taken the decision together with CMoN to send all our backers the updated cards together with the wave 2 shipments; this will save you printing out an essential component for gameplay.  Hope that helps and please give us feedback on the revisions - best place to do it would be over at the studiomcvey.com Sedition Wars forums.

- mike

It's good that they finally listened to feedback on that. What has made this seem very off-putting from the outside looking in is a few things:

1) How poorly Studio McVey seems to communicate
2) How the buck keeps getting passed / ball dropped between Studio McVey and CMON

"We're not doing a KS"
"We might do a KS but it's not our call"

"Components are not up to standards, sorry, print out your own, not our call"
The fact that they've changed their mind on the above is great, but I think this goes a LONG way towards explaining why Studio McVey is not getting the benefit of the doubt that Dreamforge is. They're not taking responsibility for the campaign, and the ball is being dropped between them and CMON.

If you're the artist, you (imo) DO have control of things. If Mike McVey really didn't want another kickstarter, he could say so. Would CMON really launch with his saying he wasn't onboard?

I know artists sometimes sign over too many rights to distributors, but it's his product. He needs to take responsibility for it, it's development, and most importantly, communicating his vision for it (both to CMON and to fans/backers).

Not wanting to come off too harsh here, but I just see so many excuses here and it makes no sense to me to approach things that way.

Extremely well put my friend.

I think many people are defending Studio McVey because they felt like they could be relied upon, but let's face it; I've never had the issues with CMON at their store, customer service or other Kickstarters that I have had with this. CMON definitely didn't mess this up, SM did and it's clear they weren't ready for this.The fact that they are continuing to make mistakes (like sending the cards off to the printers and asking us for our feedback, when they should get feedback THEN print the cards).

Also, it wasn't clear, are they just sending us the new cards or a new rulebook also?

only the cards, not the rulebook.
Not that it matters much; seems as if only the issues that weren't really that much of a big deal to begin with were fixed, anyway.

 RiTides wrote:
If you're the artist, you (imo) DO have control of things. If Mike McVey really didn't want another kickstarter, he could say so. Would CMON really launch with his saying he wasn't onboard?

I know artists sometimes sign over too many rights to distributors, but it's his product. He needs to take responsibility for it, it's development, and most importantly, communicating his vision for it (both to CMON and to fans/backers).

If you're self-publishing, this is true. If someone else is publishing it, not true at all.

Some of the horror stories I've gotten first hand from authors etc. at lectures or in interviews (well known, not nobodies):
-they couldn't choose their cover art- someone drew some character that vaguely fit the description, had a 6 month fight to get little things, such as the character's race, fixed... publisher sided with the artist
-publishing house went under, author can't legally print the book, because the contract was collateral against bankruptcy
-Brazil is a great example: it took Gilliam something like a year to fight to actually get the movie he wanted and had made distributed, instead of one the studio wanted dumbed down

spiralingcadaver, while I'm sure those examples are true, I think that for miniature game publishing the artist should / does have more control. The bottom line is that someone has to take responsibility for the quality of the product, and I'm not seeing that done here to the extent that it should be (imo, of course).

I'd agree re: it would be good for someone to take responsibility.

Re: miniature gaming, etc.- every example I've seen says that you've basically sold the majority of your creative rights when you deal with publishers. In this case, I fully expect SMV to be in control of the rules, but CMoN would have control over material quality and probably timeline.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
I got out of this one when I started having issue with the long delays and spastic updates, then CMON's gak that put the bullgak icing on the cake of shame.

Between CMON and them, they both have serious trust issues that they need to fix before i take in another dance with either of them.

Shame too, because personally, I have nothing but high opinion of Mike and Ally's works.

Just out of curiousity, where are the 'trust issues' with CMoN?

Thus far two of their KS projects (Zombicide, Guilds of Cadwallon) shipped on time with few problems.

Seditions Wars and its problems are pretty well documented here.

Relic Knights has been significantly delayed, but per the Soda Pop team, the delays have been on Soda Pop and not CMoN and the number of new sculpts they had to do.

Remember, CMoN is simply the publisher, not the developer, for Sedition Wars.

CMON sucks at communication. Their customer service is by far the worse I have ever seen when it comes to the table top gaming world.

Only time they have ever answered a quick email of mine was a question regarding active kickstarters.

any other time I don't get an answer or it takes 6 to 8 weeks.

CMON seems to be only interested in maximizing kickstarters, after that they throw you like a 20 dollar whore.

As for Mike McVey and Studio McVey, not sure what the deal is. Is it because he is basically a one man band, just bad communication or is CMON prohibiting him saying much via a contract agreement?

By the sounds of the internet, is seems as if Mike had to sell his soul to Cool Mini or Nor to help publish his game.

Unfortunately CMON went the low quality high quantity route. In terms of board games, it is an OK product overall (except the boards).

It's hard to judge the situation since I don't have all the details and can only read rumors. But it seems as if CMON and the manufacturer in China screwed over Mike.

Anyone close with mike and like to gossip?

Sending the cards with wave two is a start.

I can't really condemn them. I can understand why folks are upset. I've held off playing the game until the corrections are made, so it hasn't really affect my enjoyment of the models as of yet.

I'd like to think this was first big project hiccups and a learning experience. I'm not likely to kickstart any other SMV projects at this point in time (a kickstarter in general would be a mistake).

Some responsibility should undoubtedly be taken. We'll see how this moves forward.

I'm glad they're sending the cards. Not wild about the idea of then sending them then asking for revisions...

Wow, some big changes there. The balance of power will shift drastically.

Cant really accuse them of playing it safe. I appreciate that they are trying to fix a broken product (although i thought the rules were workable with a little intuition)

So we looking end of June for 2nd Wave?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
I got out of this one when I started having issue with the long delays and spastic updates, then CMON's gak that put the bullgak icing on the cake of shame.

Between CMON and them, they both have serious trust issues that they need to fix before i take in another dance with either of them.

Shame too, because personally, I have nothing but high opinion of Mike and Ally's works.

Just out of curiousity, where are the 'trust issues' with CMoN?

Thus far two of their KS projects (Zombicide, Guilds of Cadwallon) shipped on time with few problems.

Seditions Wars and its problems are pretty well documented here.

Relic Knights has been significantly delayed, but per the Soda Pop team, the delays have been on Soda Pop and not CMoN and the number of new sculpts they had to do.

Remember, CMoN is simply the publisher, not the developer, for Sedition Wars.

Yet they had no problem walking off with a couple of million in cash, and thier communications and logistics is on par with winged monkey flinging poo. Where did the money go?

They had gak commo, gak excuses, and tend to like to use the KS "Model" as a prepay platform to shill out, then leave everyone to twist.
I/E-Trust issues/ excuses.
You put a name to it, its yours. To fall back on "Just the publisher" is the exact reason their logistics is gak.

Like I said, they had absolutly no issues in using KS as a money grab.

I guess we just disagree. Again, both Zombicide and Guilds of Cadwallon ran extremely smoothly.

I have no problem with companies using KS and I don't see it as a money grab. It's a sound risk mitigation tool and if people at willing to participate, as a company you'd be foolish not to use it.

As to logistics: you keep on using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Saw this in the comments section of one of the updates:

Psych Lops Soft Wear about 14 hours ago
My power is going out in the next 10 minutes, so let's spend the time before doing a quick check for some really bad writing that was in V1.0. Oh dear... it's still there:
"Trust me, Morgan, I want to know why we're here as badly as you do?"
"Okay, you're not getting superstitious here Vade? Because ghosts and zombies don't exist?"
Kara grinned[no period]
"Reminds me of my last shore leave?"
"What in the hell was that thing!" (Said Vade, skilfully avoiding an appropriate use of a question mark).
Kara looked back at them. "I'm sorry, this was the best I could do?"
------------------------------------------
Oh boy guys, if this is the version you sent to the printer, you certainly didn't run any kind of critical eye over the writing (despite this being pointed out many, many times by many, many people.

They also "promised" us a book of some manner of fiction at one point, didn't they? Now that's a stretch goal I don't mind missing out on..

I still want the novel!

Oh, and CMON tried to screw me over on rivet wars. During the KS, Ginger Minton told me I could pledge for just add-ons. After the KS, Ginger Minton told me I needed to embiggen my pledge to receive any add-ons. Apparently communication is a bit of an issue. Fortunately, I got my refund.

What was your Rivet War pledge?

As a totally unrelated topic, Rivet Wars was really, really well received at CMoN Expo.

HBMC, I posted about it in the Rivet Wars pledge in the Boardgames subforum.

Just keeping on topic, I haven't had any major regrets so far on the models, although I'm getting seriously sick of restic. The delays are annoying, but I'm more concerned with SMV killing their reputation with the rules and other components. I may never play Sedition Wars, but I would like to retain the option. I would especially like it to be around and supported in some capacity when my son is old enough to get into board games, but the more I read about how unhappy the early supporters are, the less likely that seems to be.

This hating thing seems to get completly out of control on the internet and it is not only some users....

I stopped reading some until recently quite reasonable movie critic sites after they started to bash nearly every movie that only halfway seemed to be successfull. It was not that the films were bad it rather seemed that everything successful had to be burned to the ground.

And to some extent in recent months this set of mind seems to have infected TT-boards too.

I am very vocal when something is really shoddy quality, but I also tend to be one of the more reasonable voices. But even me who normally can stomach a lot gets disgusted by the vitriol some spray.

So, try to ignore most of the hate, have a look for yourself and enjoy if YOU like it.