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I never called it bland.

I'd rather they update the older armies first and then go back to slower, more dynamic releases. Of course a splash wave or two never really hurt

Why would you want releases to be slower?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I never called it bland.

I was referring to the thread title.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you want releases to be slower?

Slower releases appears to equate to more in-depth releases; with greater changes and more stuff: what I suspect he meant by more "dynamic".

Is there any proof that slower release = more dynamic or interesting releases?

Oval Base + New Flyer has been around before the 1-a-month army book style came in.

There is no 1month cycle, as you will find out in a month.
And
slow release = 4 plastic kits per month
fast release = 4 plastic kits per month
Don't get too excited when they release books that are completed for more than a year.

 puma713 wrote:
...Now, as soon as I get a chance to really break down a codex, it seems that the next one is already on its way out.

And...? You make it sound as if you have to buy an army for every single codex that gets released.

Seriously, for -years- now, this forum has kicked & screamed like a two year old that couldn't go to the fair about how slow the release schedule is & why we still have books that are two & three editions out of date & now that we have (or more to the point, will have) five codeci out for an edition that hasn't even been out a full year yet, people are pissing & moaning about bland releases or unimaginative new additions to an army (on this point I will concede a bit, tho I'm w/ H.M.B.C on this one, I find the Wraithknight to be a cool model, even if it has a rather bunk name).

Now, I'm not white-knighting for GW or whatever you want to call it, nor am I advocating for OR against the schedule or model/army quality, but the reality is this - it is a rather massive undertaking to print books, make new moulds for new models, package them, get them to retailers, etc. Do I wish some things for Chaos (my 'main' army) got updated? Sure - but I also wish I was Hugh Hefner and all the whining & throwing a fit in the world isn't going to make it so. I understand that this is a place for people to air their feelings & discuss topics like this, but lets be a bit reasonable.

For all the people bashing GW for their pendulum style approach to writing rules & balancing OP/UP models/units/armies, I almost see the same thing here w/ the quick massive shift from people complaining about a 'dex update every 4 - 6 mos to complaining that the 'dex's are coming to soon & now have 'bland, unimaginative' releases.

~Vryce

 Vryce wrote:
For all the people bashing GW for their pendulum style approach to writing rules & balancing OP/UP models/units/armies, I almost see the same thing here w/ the quick massive shift from people complaining about a 'dex update every 4 - 6 mos to complaining that the 'dex's are coming to soon & now have 'bland, unimaginative' releases.

~Vryce

This would be because Dakka is not a singular entity. It's thousands of people with their own opinion. When something changes, some people are going to be happy and some upset. You'll generally find the people happy about a change don't tend to post about how happy they are with a change, they just get on with having fun. People who do not like a change feel more inclined to go argue on the internet about it, because that's what the internet is for.

I still think it's strange that people would complain about an accelerated Codex time table.

I don't mind the current release structure but I have been disappointed that core units that are long in the tooth haven't been updated. That includes Firewarriors for Tau, Chaos Marines/god-specific Marines for CSM, (and I don't count the Finecast upgrade kits as an improvement over their metal counter parts) and now Eldar. I really want to jump on board with the new Eldar release but I am put off by the old kits. Having built some Guardians for use with the Forge World Corsair conversion kit I was not impressed with the quality of that old kit--especially after having experienced the glory of the modular Dark Eldar kits. Those are a sight to behold and if GW would release updated modular kits like they did for the Dark Eldar throughout each new army's releases I'd be hard pressed not to buy at least an allies detachment for each new release that came out.

Regarding the pace of releases, the current model is making the game feel exciting since GW is getting to a lot of armies that needed bolstering which in turn is causing some diversity to pop up among the armies represented in my gaming group.

And who knows maybe Sisters of Battle will finally get some attention in 6th!

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
funny, because a year ago everyone was whining that GW was updating the armies too slowly.

Can't please everyone all the time, I guess.

I'm thinking the same thing. Can't make everybody happy.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
funny, because a year ago everyone was whining that GW was updating the armies too slowly.

Can't please everyone all the time, I guess.

A year ago, we hadn't had a substantial new release for 40k since Necrons 6 months ago IIRC?

Besides, as Kroot has vainly been trying to point out, it's not an accelerated release schedule, they're roughly releasing the same number of items each month, with a codex/army book and a few ancillaries on top, they've hardly put their foot through the floor! I would speculate they're front loading the codex release to get them done, alongside new kits to foil the 3rd party producers, and will follow up with a block of second wave releases, rather than the old, more dispersed release schedule.

One of the things that makes the Eldar release less than inspiring is the very large numbers of ancient models that remain in the line up. The wraith knight is going to turn some people off just because of its enormous size. Likewise some people are not crazy about having fliers in the game.

So this means that two of the major releases, the knight and the flier are going to be hit or miss no matter what because of pre-existing preferences. I dont play eldar or tau, but I find the eldar knight to be rather odd looking but the tau riptide seemed fine to me. I even prefer the general aesthetic of the Eldar over the Tau by a wide margin but the proportions of the wraith knight just dont cut it for me.

Eldar players have been waiting a long time for a codex so that is also a factor that is going to raise expectations very high.

 Vryce wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
...Now, as soon as I get a chance to really break down a codex, it seems that the next one is already on its way out.

And...? You make it sound as if you have to buy an army for every single codex that gets released.

Seriously, for -years- now, this forum has kicked & screamed like a two year old that couldn't go to the fair about how slow the release schedule is & why we still have books that are two & three editions out of date & now that we have (or more to the point, will have) five codeci out for an edition that hasn't even been out a full year yet, people are pissing & moaning about bland releases or unimaginative new additions to an army (on this point I will concede a bit, tho I'm w/ H.M.B.C on this one, I find the Wraithknight to be a cool model, even if it has a rather bunk name).

Now, I'm not white-knighting for GW or whatever you want to call it, nor am I advocating for OR against the schedule or model/army quality, but the reality is this - it is a rather massive undertaking to print books, make new moulds for new models, package them, get them to retailers, etc. Do I wish some things for Chaos (my 'main' army) got updated? Sure - but I also wish I was Hugh Hefner and all the whining & throwing a fit in the world isn't going to make it so. I understand that this is a place for people to air their feelings & discuss topics like this, but lets be a bit reasonable.

For all the people bashing GW for their pendulum style approach to writing rules & balancing OP/UP models/units/armies, I almost see the same thing here w/ the quick massive shift from people complaining about a 'dex update every 4 - 6 mos to complaining that the 'dex's are coming to soon & now have 'bland, unimaginative' releases.

~Vryce

Umm. . and nothing. I was expressing my opinion about the issue. I prefer the slower release schedule because I enjoy breaking down the codices, not because I have to buy every army. What I enjoy has no bearing whatsoever on you or your opinion of the release schedule.

Jesus Christ, you'd have thought that I told you that you had to dislike the release schedule too. There are people that love it, people that hate it, just like anything else that GW or any company in the world does. Do I tell you how unreasonable it is that you don't care about the release schedule, or that you prefer a fast release schedule? No, because I'm more interested in what you're adding to the discussion than complaining about complaining, which is becoming more rampant on Dakka than posts about Matt Ward.

Forgive me if I am more interested in your actual opinion than telling you why your opinion has no merit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would you want releases to be slower?

Let me rephrase myself. Once enough codex's are updated, I would like them to release a higher quantity of sets that also are made of better quality. (looking at you, no extra bits heldrake.)

Ok sol i see that there are two clear sides of the arguement. I wouldn't really want to go back to the old pace of releases, but i think that GW needs to slow down a little as some of the releases are a bit unfished (DA codex) and they look a bit lazy (wraithknight). I also think that eldar needed a much larger update- personally i would of preferred more metal to plastic releases and less new units

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marines are next, so get ready for Dread Knight 2: The Dread-en-ing!

I like the sound of Dreadknight: Revengeance more. Sounds more grimdark. They'll probably call it the stormknight, though, because that's the Space Marine naming convention it seems. Storm this, thunder that.

Either that or it'll be like I've said before, we'll get an "Avatar of the Emperor" to literally fill the monstrous creature slot. Maybe some piece of wargear for a Captain that the Emperor can home in on and use his psychic might to create a giant physical manifestation of himself on the battlefield, in his current corpse-y form but maybe with that ghostly, glowing gold power armor he's known for, with a big flaming sword. They could wreathe his fleshless head in flames too, make him kinda like Ghost Rider, kids will like that I think.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
It's your money, and different strokes for different folks, but, personally, that strikes me as odd...

What's odd about wanting to buy something I like? As I said, I like the Wraithknight. I think it's huge, impressive, has cool looking weapons and can be done in a lot of poses. It's still a lazy concept, design and name, and I'm sure that with a little less cut'n'paste and a little more effort they could've made a big-base release for the Eldar that didn't look like something they whipped up in a a 20 minute meeting. Doesn't make me like the model it any less.

I think enough people have hassled you about this already, but as it's been said, there's nothing odd about buying something you like, but by buying the wraithknight you're telling GW that you're okay with lazy designs and that any extra effort they put into it would have been wasted time/money in the end because you were going to buy it anyway. That's what's odd about it, criticizing the model so harshly and then ending with "So that's why I'm buying three of them!"

 Gorlack wrote:
- dual flyers: armies that doesn't already have flyers get flyers. As a Tau player I was very excited that we finally got some, and I imagine Eldar players would have been quite annoyed if they didn't get one.

As a Tau player so was I, until I actually saw the thing. Then I got pissed off. Honestly I think I would have preferred GW didn't give Tau a new flyer at all if they weren't going to make the barracuda into plastic, or put more effort into the design of the new one, instead of slapping a bigger pair of wings and some stupid tail booms on a piranha and saying "Piranha get wings, piranha fly now, you buy."

Eldar players should consider themselves lucky in that regard, at least theirs actually kinda looks like a fighter, and was loosely-based on the DE razorwing which was actually a cool design, one of the few that GW have done. It shouldn't cost $65, but I'd feel a lot better buying that than the fething sun shark, which I still have yet to pick up and probably never will, as I honestly think I could do a better job sculpting my own flyer than buying GW's up-sized piranha. Maybe some day I'll actually make that attempt, too, but right now I have too many unassembled, unpainted models to get through.

As for the topic at hand, I don't mind the release schedule. I wanted faster codex updates and as far as that goes I'm getting what I want. I wish they weren't fething $50 hardcover books and that I had a cheaper paperback option, and I wish the rules themselves had more effort put into them than cheap copy/paste jobs with a few nerfs here and there to "balance" things that needed balancing one or two editions ago, but I want to see every army get updated (including Sisters). I don't find a lot of the models to be all that impressive, though. As far as the Eldar specifically, I think the models they're getting look good enough, but this release just seems awful damn small. Lots of units that needed to be redone in plastic didn't get redone, just the wraithguard. In one case they actually took a huge step backwards and cut one of the box contents in half but charged the same price for it, and I personally find that kind of bs simply inexcusable. It's both hilarious and sad that the number one complaint about GW is poor value for money, and they go and do crap like that, just blatantly bending you over and laughing about it. They need to be giving us more models for the money we're spending, not less. And these are old sculpts at that, pretty barren-looking sprues compared to some of the newer kits coming out.

The other releases though weren't all that impressive. Chaos could have used some kits redone, but we got the heldrake and the fiends instead, two really goofy-looking models with insane price tags to boot, and that release also heralded the $20 single plastic infantry characters, which isn't that reasonable in my opinion. Dark Angels were another lackluster update, with a goofy flyer and a hilarious-looking stretch speeder, with an even more hilarious price tag. The only thing I really liked for the DA release were the bikers. The terminators were okay but I didn't really like or hate them that much. Daemons sucked, they didn't really get anything that I liked the look of...just more of the same goofy-looking models that I've hated ever since CSM and Daemons got split all that time ago, and they started putting out really cartoony-looking sculpts for them. Tau were probably the best release of all of them, and I don't think I'm particularly biased in that either since it seems most people think the pathfinders and most of the other new models didn't look too bad, but the riptide and especially the sun shark are two ugly-looking models. The riptide could probably look a lot better with some very heavy conversion work, but I don't feel it's worth it to pay $85 for a base (not like the base the model sits on...you know what I mean). The flyer is just irredeemable in my opinion, there's really nothing I like about the design and the way the kit is laid out makes any serious modifications of the model too difficult to be worth it. It would take a lot more than a simple repositioning of the wings and removal of the ugly tail booms to "fix" that model. Eldar seem like a better release than Tau to me, because none of the new models are really all that offensive (though I've seen people get straight-up pissed off about the wraithknight, worse than I did when I saw the riptide, but personally I feel it fits Eldar more than the riptide fits Tau so I'm not too bothered by it), the worst thing about the Eldar release is just the lack of updated kits.

I know a lot of that is subjective, but personally I've seen more people saying the same things about these models than not. The models that I personally find ugly also seem to be some of the most hated models for other people as well, so I don't think it's unfair to assume these models are mostly unpopular.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I really want to jump on board with the new Eldar release but I am put off by the old kits. Having built some Guardians for use with the Forge World Corsair conversion kit I was not impressed with the quality of that old kit--especially after having experienced the glory of the modular Dark Eldar kits. Those are a sight to behold and if GW would release updated modular kits like they did for the Dark Eldar throughout each new army's releases I'd be hard pressed not to buy at least an allies detachment for each new release that came out.

That's a good point, I feel. Some of these older kits are off-putting, either because of the quality of the sculpts, their prohibitive cost, the fact that they're only available in Finecast, or in some cases even all three. There are several 40k armies I wouldn't even consider collecting until certain kits got redone, and GW seems intent on avoiding that for as long as humanly possible. It's the main reason why I never gave WHF an honest shot...not only was I put off by the horrible 8th edition rules, but so much of the ranges were old and dated it wasn't even funny. I wanted to play Dark Elves in particular and while it might have been possible for me to build an army out of solely new kits, like the corsairs, cold one knights and hydras, the majority of the model range was old and ugly and I had no idea how competitive my army would have been in the end. Then again they did eventually put out a new manticore and a black dragon, which are both kits I hated the look of and was kinda put off by since I didn't want my general looking so stupid, but both of those new kits were ugly too, so I dunno...maybe they don't want to update old kits because they don't trust themselves to make the replacement any better? lol

I don't think I'd do WHF now anyway because the cost of a standard army is ridiculous, even compared to 40k, and you'll have a lot more infantry models to paint on top of that. Old, ugly infantry, which mainly act as wound markers in-game anyway and will inevitably get blown off the board in huge chunks by 8th edition's random and destructive magic phase. I just don't see the point in wasting my time painting all those models and getting them to rank up properly when they won't last on the table for more than a couple turns.

But anyway, Dark Eldar are a good example because they're an army I always liked the idea of, but could never bring myself to collect because of the infamously bad model range. I tried, too, I did buy a box of warriors once (it was dirt cheap) and thought I could convert the models to look good. I bought some Dire Avenger bits after playing with the kit for a while thinking I could just mix and match, then I kinda gave up on the idea when I realized I was mostly going to be using the Eldar models in whole and just gluing spikes to them in the end, without using any of the parts from the DE warrior box at all. But I had this image in my head of that Eldar aesthetic but with a more sinister look: spikes, segmented armor plates, all that stuff that was finally realized in the 2010 update with Jes Goodwin sculpts, and I kept hoping that we'd get a Games Day update one year with DE pics. It was really awesome when that finally happened, too. But then of course GW fethed it up and all but invalidated the army a mere two years after revamping them...guess they were happy with the number of kits they sold and went back to not caring.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And who knows maybe Sisters of Battle will finally get some attention in 6th!

I'd like to see that, but I have a feeling they're going to be the new Dark Eldar. I'm honestly starting to believe they may even be written out of the universe entirely, I mean if GW can't even see fit to put a .pdf of their codex up on the website and is perfectly happy with new players not being able to legally play the army, it doesn't really bode well for them at all. But Sisters are another army I like the idea of, that I personally think could be a popular army if they got good models.

 azreal13 wrote:
I would speculate they're front loading the codex release to get them done, alongside new kits to foil the 3rd party producers, and will follow up with a block of second wave releases, rather than the old, more dispersed release schedule.

That's what I'm thinking, too. We just haven't gotten to the point of seeing these "second wave" follow-up releases yet. I wonder how long it will be before that happens, though.

JWhex wrote:
I dont play eldar or tau, but I find the eldar knight to be rather odd looking but the tau riptide seemed fine to me.

It's the opposite for me. Not only do I hate the model but the idea of the riptide at all just annoys me. I even hate how they wrote it into the fluff...I don't know if this is against forum rules or not but here's the stupid fluff blurb: "The Tau way of war stresses mobility over mass attacks and hit-and-run tactics over entrenched positions. A wise Commander is not daunted by foes that outnumber his own troops many times over, nor is he dismayed by the sheer size of the crude war machines their foes might deploy. Coordinated tactics, tight discipline and a well enacted battle plan can overcome such minor advantages. However, even Commander Puretide, the ultimate master of the balanced attack, freely admitted that the creation of a heavier class of battlesuits, with upgraded size and armour, would better enable cadres to withstand the prodigious firepower that was regularly directed at them."

So Puretide, who stressed that good tactics and a cunning plan could overcome any foe, was suddenly retconned into admitting that a big Gundam would be necessary to deal with being outnumbered and/or outgunned. So much for being the "master of the balanced attack". This is the kinda bs that stands as the perfect example of GW being lazy, they simply couldn't think of a good reason why Tau would field such a stupid unit, but they have to sell a big stupid robot kit, so they effectively rewrite history and have fething Puretide himself say "Well quite frankly I like Gundams and I think we need lots of them." Stupid. Of course this is nothing new as they've been doing it with ever new land raider or speeder variant, the new SM flyers, etc. Hell, is there even a good reason for having a size class between the Eldar wraithlord and the revenant? The wraithknight is just a couple inches shy of the revenant in height anyway, what could it do that the titan can't? "Oh, well, if it crouches just so it can almost hide completely behind a building, whereas the revenant would have bits sticking out!"

 Sidstyler wrote:
This is the kinda bs that stands as the perfect example of GW being lazy, they simply couldn't think of a good reason why Tau would field such a stupid unit, but they have to sell a big stupid robot kit, so they effectively rewrite history and have fething Puretide himself say "Well quite frankly I like Gundams and I think we need lots of them." Stupid.

This.

It's even in direct contradiction to the fluff that the Tau don't use large walkers like the Imperium. They have crisis suits as heavy power armor (with the ability to fit into human-size buildings/cover/etc), and use tanks and aircraft for all the bigger stuff. I liked that the Tau were actually able to figure out that the human shape doesn't work well once it gets big enough that you can't fit into human-size spaces or interact with a human-scale world. But I guess Tigersharks are too big, and everyone already owns Hammerheads so we'd better nerf the tanks and replace them with a new super-battlesuit.

I have more of an issue with the way the company just seems content to just tread out the same old releases on an endless cycle, add a +0.1 prefix to the end, and call it a day. I think by themselves the new releases are fine - people like familiarity, and just an extra kit or 2 (especially when it is a big robot!) is no doubt enough for most, but for me the saddest component is the lack of innovation and any attempt to try and create something new, and especially when considering that GW is in the prime spot to be able to do so.

Take for example the new Tau codex, and the kind of rumours people were talking about; about the 'empire' races, of human auxiliaries (armed in cool Tau-style armour of course), of lots of different alien races that may have joined the empire and now be represented on the tabletop. Hell, there was even talk of Squats/demiurg plastics (a rumour that had its rumour-monger debunked, but you could see the enthusiasm for it!) But, when the product was released we ended up with a book that was pretty much an updated 'edition' of the previous book - the background is the same, the artwork more or less, the units all the same. A couple of rules were moved either way in a couple of places. Oh, it was a hardback (which is surely one of the biggest cases of 'the emperor's new clothes' that you could care to mention) - but the rest of it was all-too familiar.

So while I think there is nothing wrong with what GW is doing per-se, it's more a case of what they are not doing that I find troubling - of being that hot-bed of imagination, and of trying to move the industry forward with their games and miniature releases. It's perhaps because I remember the period in the mid-90's, of the company constantly making new games to suit all tastes, of boxed games, with wide ranges of miniatures to support them, and actually where GW hammered out the territory and advantage in the industry that they enjoy today. These days the most anyone seems to have to look forward to is a new codex or army book (which is going to be almost exactly the same as the one you previously bought) plus a new plastic kit or two.. and that in itself I think is tremendously sad. Of course the counter-argument is that the 'Golden Age' period was an accountants nightmare - but is it not possible to have a balance between the two?

They've certainly got the capital to be able to knock the opposition out of the ballpark, but instead there seems to be a singular lack of will to do anything other than shore-up previously defined boundaries, and continue to go in ever-decreasing circles with regards to new releases. I think it's extremely important to note the number of companies that are now springing up to fill that gaming, creative 'void' in GW's absence.

So.. I'll end this with 'lets have some more dynamism, something new, something adventurous.. and another 'Dreadfleet' (in terms of concept, if not in execution!)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I still think it's strange that people would complain about an accelerated Codex time table.

With just one Codex release last year, it was difficult NOT to accelerate. In December, Vetock admitted that 4 of his books were unreleased.

It's just a shame they didn't take the chance of redoing all the aspects in plastic. I mean they've had since roughly 2006, it's not like they had to design the Eldar stuff in the last few months (well except the Flyer/Wraithknight which are geared to the 6th edition Flyer/MC combo happy-meal).

JWhex wrote:
One of the things that makes the Eldar release less than inspiring is the [b]very large [b/]numbers of ancient models that remain in the line up.

Which ones would those be? I mean, I can accept the jetbikes, Phoenix Lords, and possibly the Warp Spiders, but the rest of the range was either updated shortly before the last release, for it, or at some point afterwards.

Even with that said, the only models that glaringly stand out (for me) as "Why did you not update these?!" Is the jetbikes; the aspect warriors switching to plastic would be nice but, as we've seen, that usually comes with a price bump for the "honour" of getting a dual kit, and they're all currently really nice models (again, my opinion).

So unless your definition of ancient is "around 7 years old", then apart from the jetbikes, you've either not realised when models were released, or are exaggerating slightly.

Edit: cocked up formatting.

 Goliath wrote:
Which ones would those be? I mean, I can accept the jetbikes, Phoenix Lords, and possibly the Warp Spiders, but the rest of the range was either updated shortly before the last release, for it, or at some point afterwards.

Falcon is from 2nd Ed. The Vyper is from 2nd Ed and contains exactly 1 weapon option (ShuriCannon). Guardians are from 3rd Ed and haven't changed (though their platforms are now plastic, thankfully). Plus the Phoenix Lords, the Avatar, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Shining Spears and I guess you could argue the Wave Serpent, but that's the newest of that lot.

Plus you realise that your post basically boiled down to:

"Aside from all the really old things the person I'm replying to is obviously referring to, what else is there?" That's a bit like a defence attorney standing up in court and saying "Aside from all the overwhelming material and eye-witness evidence showing that my client committed these crimes, what has the prosecution really got to prove their claims?"

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
Which ones would those be? I mean, I can accept the jetbikes, Phoenix Lords, and possibly the Warp Spiders, but the rest of the range was either updated shortly before the last release, for it, or at some point afterwards.

Falcon is from 2nd Ed. The Vyper is from 2nd Ed and contains exactly 1 weapon option (ShuriCannon). Guardians are from 3rd Ed and haven't changed (though their platforms are now plastic, thankfully). Plus the Phoenix Lords, the Avatar, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Shining Spears and I guess you could argue the Wave Serpent, but that's the newest of that lot.

Plus you realise that your post basically boiled down to:

"Aside from all the really old things the person I'm replying to is obviously referring to, what else is there?" That's a bit like a defence attorney standing up in court and saying "Aside from all the overwhelming material and eye-witness evidence showing that my client committed these crimes, what has the prosecution really got to prove their claims?"

I was unaware that guardians were 3rd edition, I remembered seeing them in the release issue of WD so assumed they were an update. Does the falcon/wave serpent actually need an update? I'd say it's one of the nicer looking tanks.

And my post wasn't intended as "No, you're wrong about everything being old" but that some of the older models are nice enough that they don't need updating over the wraithguard. I know that a fair chunk of the range is quite old, but I'd argue that Guardians are definitely nice enough to not need updating (though plastic storm guardian upgrades would be nice), possibly the viper (though the point about the shuriCannon is pertinent). The Avatar is not a nice model, but I will say that I flat out forgot it (I may have repressed it over how little I like it)

I'd also argue that some of the Phoenix Lords wouldn't need updating (though if you do some, you kind of have to do the others), Maugan Ra, Baharroth and possibly Jain-Zar are (in my opinion) not that urgent, as they're still nice models.

I will admit that my original point was largely unnecessary though (I'm so used to people arguing that stuff like Dire Avengers and the other Aspect Warriors need updating that I assumed that was what he was referring to)

 Goliath wrote:
I was unaware that guardians were 3rd edition, I remembered seeing them in the release issue of WD so assumed they were an update. Does the falcon/wave serpent actually need an update? I'd say it's one of the nicer looking tanks.

The Serpent? No. Not really. The Falcon could do with a re-cut (rather than a redesign) to put in more weapon options. It's a plastic kit from a time when you basically got what you were given and if you wanted something more you had to convert it. The Vyper sits in this boat as well. I'd love the Vyper to be redone as a combined Vyper/Venom kit. That would be amazing.

[EDIT]: I've since checked and the Vyper (and I presume the Falcon) does now come with a weapon sprue for alternate weapons. However this is the sprue straight from the Wave Serpent kit, designed long after the Vyper and Falcon entered production, so I can't speak to how elegant their compatibility is.

As far as the Guardians go, they're ancient plastics from a time when GW plastics weren't all that sophisticated. They have two-piece legs for crying out loud, yet no posability. They're kinda sad.

 Goliath wrote:
And my post wasn't intended as "No, you're wrong about everything being old" but that some of the older models are nice enough that they don't need updating over the wraithguard.

I actually don't disagree with you here, but there were really four big items that need to be redone - Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and the Avatar (easily one of the oldest models GW still makes). Sadly they're only doing one of them, which is especially galling when we've seen re-done Jetbikes, seen what the revamped DE Jetbikes looked like, and when we live in the world of endless big new monster kits but still have the tiny FineCost Avatar to deal with. As for the Warp Spiders? They were prime candidates to turn into a plastic hybrid kit with an all-new Aspect. But, sadly, we're stuck with models that haven't been new since 2nd Ed.

 Goliath wrote:
I'd also argue that some of the Phoenix Lords wouldn't need updating (though if you do some, you kind of have to do the others), Maugan Ra, Baharroth and possibly Jain-Zar are (in my opinion) not that urgent, as they're still nice models.

I've never been a fan of Jain-Zarr (too much 80's hair metal in her!), but you're right that the Phoenix Lords don't need updating. They're still outstanding Goodwin sculpts that have stood the test of time. However, they do suffer from the "2D" syndrome of metal models, in that everything exists on a flat plane due to the nature of spin-casting (Asurman and Baharroth are the most guilty of this, along with Eldrad), so we wonder what could be done if they were remade.

 Goliath wrote:
I will admit that my original point was largely unnecessary though (I'm so used to people arguing that stuff like Dire Avengers and the other Aspect Warriors need updating that I assumed that was what he was referring to)

Of course the weird thing is that the Aspect Warriors (aside from Warp Spiders) have been redone with virtually every Codex. Scorpions, Avengers, Banshees, Dragons and Dark Reapers all had three different sets of models in three editions (the original Jess Goodwin's from 2nd Ed, the terrible 3rd Ed remakes, and the wonderful return-to-form Goodwin "fixes" to the line in 4th Ed). There was no 5th Ed Eldar Codex, so that skipped a generation, and now with the 6th Ed Codex it's the first time the majority of the Aspects haven't been redone.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[EDIT]: I've since checked and the Vyper (and I presume the Falcon) does now come with a weapon sprue for alternate weapons. However this is the sprue straight from the Wave Serpent kit, designed long after the Vyper and Falcon entered production, so I can't speak to how elegant their compatibility is.

From what I can remember the weapon sprue wasn't done amazingly well, it was attachable but I couldn't think of any way to make it switchable (though I was 15 at the time)

H.B.M.C. wrote:As far as the Guardians go, they're ancient plastics from a time when GW plastics weren't all that sophisticated. They have two-piece legs for crying out loud, yet no posability. They're kinda sad.

Oh, assembly wise they're not fun at all, but for final result they aren't too awful. They could still do with an update, it's just not too pressing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
And my post wasn't intended as "No, you're wrong about everything being old" but that some of the older models are nice enough that they don't need updating over the wraithguard.

I actually don't disagree with you here, but there were really four big items that need to be redone - Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and the Avatar (easily one of the oldest models GW still makes). Sadly they're only doing one of them, which is especially galling when we've seen re-done Jetbikes, seen what the revamped DE Jetbikes looked like, and when we live in the world of endless big new monster kits but still have the tiny FineCost Avatar to deal with. As for the Warp Spiders? They were prime candidates to turn into a plastic hybrid kit with an all-new Aspect. But, sadly, we're stuck with models that haven't been new since 2nd Ed.

See this is one of the things that confues me. Half of the people complaining about the Wraithlord were doing it on the basis of it not existing in previous fluff, but then other people are arguing that there should be new aspects made. It's a situation where no matter what GW do they are going to get complaints.

H.B.M.C wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
I'd also argue that some of the Phoenix Lords wouldn't need updating (though if you do some, you kind of have to do the others), Maugan Ra, Baharroth and possibly Jain-Zar are (in my opinion) not that urgent, as they're still nice models.

I've never been a fan of Jain-Zarr (too much 80's hair metal in her!), but you're right that the Phoenix Lords don't need updating. They're still outstanding Goodwin sculpts that have stood the test of time. However, they do suffer from the "2D" syndrome of metal models, in that everything exists on a flat plane due to the nature of spin-casting (Asurman and Baharroth are the most guilty of this, along with Eldrad), so we wonder what could be done if they were remade.

I'd add Karandras to the 2D Brigade

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
I will admit that my original point was largely unnecessary though (I'm so used to people arguing that stuff like Dire Avengers and the other Aspect Warriors need updating that I assumed that was what he was referring to)

Of course the weird thing is that the Aspect Warriors (aside from Warp Spiders) have been redone with virtually every Codex. Scorpions, Avengers, Banshees, Dragons and Dark Reapers all had three different sets of models in three editions (the original Jess Goodwin's from 2nd Ed, the terrible 3rd Ed remakes, and the wonderful return-to-form Goodwin "fixes" to the line in 4th Ed). There was no 5th Ed Eldar Codex, so that skipped a generation, and now with the 6th Ed Codex it's the first time the majority of the Aspects haven't been redone.

True, which is why (to my eyes at least) all the complaining about not getting new aspect warriors is kind of needy? I guess? I mean, it's basically moaning that the core of the range wasn't completely revamped for the third time in a row, whereas if they were updated to the detriment of a model for the Wraithknight or Flyer (I can't remember the name), the entire internet would explode in complaints similar to those regarding the Tervigon, and models not being released for new units.

If you think back to a year or two ago people were incessantly complaining (rightly so) about awesome rules being released for units that didn't have models. We're now at the other end of the spectrum, where they're releasing models for the new units as soon as they're released, but people are now complaining that the old models weren't updated. I can understand the complaints about not getting old stuff updated, but you can't complain about new units getting models upon release when the entire internet and their aunt were complaining about it not happening for the past 3 years.

In some ways you have to ask - why can't they do both? Releasing rules but no models was (obviously) a (huge) mistake. I don't think they'll ever get that wrong again (*glances at the Ork range and the gaps that have been there since 2nd Ed*). But why can't they also redo the Avatar (even if it has to be fething FineCost) as well? Surely they've gotten enough mileage out of the current one, and really doesn't someone there want to make a new big stonking Eldar rage Daemon?

As far as your comments about adding a new Aspect, adding things to the fluff is something we should be used to now. I've long since accepted that GW creates the models and then finds whatever size crowbar they need to force the concept into the fluff ("Grey Knights have totally always had Dreadknights! Honest!"), plus their hybrid kit system is really good, and shows how far their plastic technology has come, so if the price to get a great new set of dynamic plastic Warp Spiders is that they put in a "Totally always there we just never told you about them" new type of Aspect, then I'm ok with that.

That and sometimes the Rule of Cool outweighs some of the stupider things they do. A lot of the new Tyranid units have shockingly terrible names (Pyrovore? Venomthrope? Tyrannofex? Was Cruddace even trying?), but their models are cool, especially the Tyrannofex, which I love. The same applies to the Wraithknight. It's a lazy design (just a bigger Wraithlord) that could've been so much more (like an actual Bright Stalion, which would have been very interesting and very different), and has a boring name, but it is a cool model nonetheless.

And sometimes they just get it soooooooo wrong.

Good lord guys, life is to short.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
In some ways you have to ask - why can't they do both? Releasing rules but no models was (obviously) a (huge) mistake. I don't think they'll ever get that wrong again (*glances at the Ork range and the gaps that have been there since 2nd Ed*).

Good lord yes. I wants me some Flash Gitz (I'm hoping to run a little mercenary detachment of a couple of units of Flash Gitz with Kaptin Badrukk, with wave upon wave of Piratical Grot)

H.B.M.C. wrote:That and sometimes the Rule of Cool outweighs some of the stupider things they do. A lot of the new Tyranid units have shockingly terrible names (Pyrovore? Venomthrope? Tyrannofex? Was Cruddace even trying?), but their models are cool, especially the Tyrannofex, which I love. The same applies to the Wraithknight. It's a lazy design (just a bigger Wraithlord) that could've been so much more (like an actual Bright Stalion, which would have been very interesting and very different), and has a boring name, but it is a cool model nonetheless.

And sometimes they just get it soooooooo wrong.

I quite liked the idea of a chariot pulled by a flying bird, I just think they really screwed up when someone at GW went "So, the eagle goes below the chariot, that way due to the tension on the harness the chariot will be pulled down! That means it flies right?"

For a guy doing an engineering degree, that hurt.

If Flying means 'crashing into the ground' then yes.