Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BrookM wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I remain very pleased that I held off placing any money in the kickstarter from these guys and will look forward to buying their models as and when they actually exist and can be ordered from a reliable 3rd party vendor.

But vhen vill zat beeeee?

That's a great question, but, like Avatars of War, until they have a product to sell, they don't get my money... I bloody love the product, but I don't give my money to people for showing me a pretty picture on the internet when they also have a prior reputation for not getting their shiz together.

I did buy the original trio from Raging Heroes, several years back, and the delay back then was so long I forgot I'd ordered them... Things have not improved much in that regard from where I am sitting, lovely concepts, great minis, serious talent, terrible business execution with a very 'continental' attitude towards productions and criticism (remember Rackham and the 'charming' feedback from them... now what happened to Rackham again???).

 cincydooley wrote:
It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress.

Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.

But, keep grousing and complaining and make yourself unhappy. Or, conversely, those of you who backed out, keep telling yourselves how wise you were.

If there are no results in a year, then I'll start to get worried. For now, they can do whatever they want. I'm sure they're more interested in making sure the stuff they do meets their quality standards than they are in sending weekly email updates on the last week's work. As someone involved in project management, who has to make such weekly reports to my boss, I can tell you that they're quite tedious to write, and don't always have anything concrete in them.

 Redbeard wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress.

Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.

On the contrary, it's unrealistic to believe this is a skill only required of multimillion dollar companies. Even if you've never done anything more in depth than pay for a mobile phone plan, you should know that being upfront with your creditors about delays is better than letting things fester.

 Redbeard wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress.

Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.

But, keep grousing and complaining and make yourself unhappy. Or, conversely, those of you who backed out, keep telling yourselves how wise you were.

If there are no results in a year, then I'll start to get worried. For now, they can do whatever they want. I'm sure they're more interested in making sure the stuff they do meets their quality standards than they are in sending weekly email updates on the last week's work. As someone involved in project management, who has to make such weekly reports to my boss, I can tell you that they're quite tedious to write, and don't always have anything concrete in them.

But you are required to make them, nonetheless... You make regular reports, despite anything happening, to assure people that nothing is happening. No News is not always good news, it leaves a vacuum, like with GW's silence policy, that can be filled with rumor mongering, gossip and anything or everything else.

Communication, updates and other waffle reassure all those folks who've just spluged money that the company isn't going to vanish or otherwise misappropriate the funds they've just been loaned in lieu of product. It's sensible, good PR and enlightened self interest for a company that likely will want repeat custom and a repeat of the success of this last venture.

I feel that first kickstarter taught them the really wrong lessons, second that they learned nothing from the lessons they should have learned and finally that they burn goodwill on really stupid stuff.

Their second kickstarter may be good regardless of their present behavior, but much will depend on how well they deliver on this one.

On the queries about WIP and progress after the HI renders and their later responses its only logical people would demand them, their reputation is not in as firm ground as it was at the start of it.

 Redbeard wrote:

Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.

But, keep grousing and complaining and make yourself unhappy. Or, conversely, those of you who backed out, keep telling yourselves how wise you were.

If there are no results in a year, then I'll start to get worried. For now, they can do whatever they want. I'm sure they're more interested in making sure the stuff they do meets their quality standards than they are in sending weekly email updates on the last week's work. As someone involved in project management, who has to make such weekly reports to my boss, I can tell you that they're quite tedious to write, and don't always have anything concrete in them.

All of your arguments here are fine. Your veiled insults earlier were not. I'm also not a project manager, but I have to keep a number of relevant stakeholders updated in my work, as tedious as it is, and as it's not a part of my "core" duties, it happens outside of those hours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I feel that first kickstarter taught them the really wrong lessons, second that they learned nothing from the lessons they should have learned and finally that they burn goodwill on really stupid stuff.
Their second kickstarter may be good regardless of their present behavior, but much will depend on how well they deliver on this one.
On the queries about WIP and progress after the HI renders and their later responses its only logical people would demand them, their reputation is not in as firm ground as it was at the start of it.

Correct on all counts, re!

With all due respect to the people that are content to wait, that's entirely irrelevant to whether they ought to be putting out updates; the fact is that they said updates were forthcoming.

August 17, 2013;

@Arlie Alsup: Good point! Got the concept artist on it. @Stryke: We postponed the seminars until September as it seemed complicated to organize them properly with everyone's summer vacations happening at different dates... It should have been part of the previous update but somehow, the topic slipped under the radar, I am sorry about that :( @R Naysmith: Indeed, we thought we'd do a new Update earlier, but then, we wanted to include in it a bunch of images, and so we pushed out the date of the next Update. It should be coming late next week, now.

August 23, 2013;

@Thargan: I hear you my friend! But we're all huddled together finalizing some posing, so I fear the write-up will lag behind... however, I just found out that Rasputin predicted the end of the world for today, so this entire conversation may be moot by tomorrow...

Whatever evils twitter, facebook or the internal combustion engine have wreaked on today's youth, the expectation that RH would be pushing an update is not one of them. That they did all on their own.

Two weeks ago an update was coming in a week. A week ago they were "huddled together finalizing some posing". Today the expectations that they would have an update out are the unreasonable chattering of spoiled children.

Zing!

Well, time to back out of this thread and check back in 2 months or so

As always, Buzz cuts to the heart of the matter.

For anyone who might be thinking that it might be something getting lost in translation, or that there are cultural differences in ways to expressing this or that:

Nope. French is my first language, and I deal with French expats at work all week long. This is snark, and the way an adult talks to a child. There is no level of respect implied in the way that was written, it's barely above the "because I said so" level.

If they are making up witty section headers like "Fun with Foundries" and references to BBT, then it is also not because they "don't get Amuhricans, urh urh." They understand your complaining in English just fine. They just talk about it in French because they won't be bothered.

Just to chime in with Redbeard here for a moment before he's tarred and feathered . I totally agree with you guys that the attitude coupled with lack of updates is unacceptable.

But, if the product is fantastic in the end, it's possible all will be forgiven. I finally got my Form 1 3D printer this week. Really overdue, few updates, company hard to communicate with for a while, expensive... and I'm in love now! Backers were restless but thankfully they took their time and seem to have gotten it right.

Doesn't excuse attitude, but end product really is the most important! I'd rather have surly comms and late delivery than an on time crappy product, a la some of Mantic's. I did as many are saying here and waited closer to release to pick and choose from them. With RH, by contrast, I think the results will be great, you just have to forget about it for 6 months, unfortunately!

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that there's any good excuse for poor communication and the attitude displayed in that 'update'.

How did this latest 'update' go over in the comments section?

A lot of support for Raginshiroz, with a few vocal outliers.

It's sad, because even when someone brings up a valid point, he usually gets strawman-ed, shouted down or patronized.

Which is why most Kickstarter comments sections quickly become unbearable places, full of negativity and shameful behavior.

There are exceptions, of course.

This campaign isn't one of them though.

This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:

The thing is, we're working away like mad to meet our self-imposed deadline
of finishing a certain number of minis by tomorrow, and it's really hard to
focus on anything else at the moment :(
We just got home now, it's 5AM and we've yet to have dinner... We're giving
our all to make the best possible minis for the TGG Kickstarter, and it is
true that we have left communications fall a bit on the wayside, because,
to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every
single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
Nevertheless, we do strive to respond quickly to all backers' direct
messages, and so please don't hesitate to be in touch again

 BrookM wrote:
This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:

The thing is, we're working away like mad to meet our self-imposed deadline
of finishing a certain number of minis by tomorrow, and it's really hard to
focus on anything else at the moment :(
We just got home now, it's 5AM and we've yet to have dinner... We're giving
our all to make the best possible minis for the TGG Kickstarter, and it is
true that we have left communications fall a bit on the wayside, because,
to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every
single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
Nevertheless, we do strive to respond quickly to all backers' direct
messages, and so please don't hesitate to be in touch again

What a load of horsegak.

Would those be the same minis they were just "adjusting the poses" for about a week ago?

 RiTides wrote:

But, if the product is fantastic in the end, it's possible all will be forgiven. I finally got my Form 1 3D printer this week. Really overdue, few updates, company hard to communicate with for a while, expensive... and I'm in love now!

So we should expect pics of the official custom Dakka 28mm models of Yak and Lego when? I suspect Alpharius would want truescale versions but I'd prefer more OOTS style ones personally.

I just want half naked girls with guns and armour :(

 BrookM wrote:
This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:

... because, to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...

As a backer, I support this statement 100%. I didn't back a communication company, I backed a miniatures company.

As a backer I prefer communication, especially were I can provide feedback and not were I am presented with finished unchangeable results.

During the course of the kickstarter they managed to ruin their reputation and statement that they will deliver the concept art in miniatures form, so I would rather have communication on what they are doing.

Although that message is a lot less snarky than the original one that sparked this current firestorm, I don't see why this couldn't have been the original message instead?

I think the discussion is a little too focused on what we expect, as opposed to what expectations they have set for themselves: as noted above, we're now a full week past the date they set for their new update.

Their last update was July 29; we're now a few hours away from the entire month of August passing without an update beyond some quick comments (FYI, their last update contained the line "we know that, ... you would have loved to see some eye candy in this Update but alas, as much as we've been working on many sculptures al at once, none is ready for its close-up yet. But we'll make up for it in the next Update. ).

Remember the infamous "80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done... "100% of the minis are 80% ready”"? That was July 5th.

It is also important to remember that "choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]." On top of that, the plan was also for "3 waves, or perhaps 4, by March 2014".

What that last item means is that they have only seven months to: a) run 3 (maybe 4!) pledge managers, b) have 100% of the sculpts "finalised[sic"] and finally c) do their production runs for the 3 (4) shipping dates.

RH has honestly set up perhaps the most challenging fulfillment operation of any major miniature campaign (certainly the most complicated I have seen). So when they fall down on meeting their own deadlines for relatively simple things, it does tend to undermine confidence in their overall competence, which in turn can lead to a cascading problem with their fulfillment. That is, when people lose confidence in the company it can have effects on what gets ordered.

For example: if enough people lose confidence in goals being met and decide to "cash out" in the first wave, RH not only has the problem of the distribution of production being distorted, but they have to have the freebies ready to go for all these people that are ready to walk away at the start (or, alternatively, demand that people pay for two waves of shipping for their freebies...). When I pledged, I planned on getting things that (I presume) are spread throughout the production schedule. But if they prove sufficiently inept, the idea of just cashing out on $10 heroes becomes ever more attractive...

Let's also not forget, they want to have two more KS campaigns in the near future! It's not like they have good will to burn here.

I stand by the quote. I want to cut that relationship as soon as humanly possible.

 BrookM wrote:
This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:

The thing is, we're working away like mad to meet our self-imposed deadline
of finishing a certain number of minis by tomorrow, and it's really hard to
focus on anything else at the moment :(
We just got home now, it's 5AM and we've yet to have dinner... We're giving
our all to make the best possible minis for the TGG Kickstarter, and it is
true that we have left communications fall a bit on the wayside, because,
to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every
single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
Nevertheless, we do strive to respond quickly to all backers' direct
messages, and so please don't hesitate to be in touch again

How do they explain them having enough time to post random stuff on Tumblr but not to update their backers then? Or their very passive aggressive tone when speaking to backers?

It doesn't cost anything to treat your customers with respect.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I remain very pleased that I held off placing any money in the kickstarter from these guys and will look forward to buying their models as and when they actually exist and can be ordered from a reliable 3rd party vendor.

But vhen vill zat beeeee?

That's a great question, but, like Avatars of War, until they have a product to sell, they don't get my money... I bloody love the product, but I don't give my money to people for showing me a pretty picture on the internet when they also have a prior reputation for not getting their shiz together.

I did buy the original trio from Raging Heroes, several years back, and the delay back then was so long I forgot I'd ordered them... Things have not improved much in that regard from where I am sitting, lovely concepts, great minis, serious talent, terrible business execution with a very 'continental' attitude towards productions and criticism (remember Rackham and the 'charming' feedback from them... now what happened to Rackham again???).

I had actually forgot about kickstarting this until I saw this thread, who knows when we'll recieve them.

I disagree with RITides that the final product will wash away their transgressions. I can think of a number of companies I won't return to because of customer service issues--like communication. Also, if there's anything universal about the wargamers on Dakka, it's that they hold long, shamefully negative grudges.

 Redbeard wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:

... because, to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...

As a backer, I support this statement 100%. I didn't back a communication company, I backed a miniatures company.

And as a backer, I think that's a false choice. Prodos manage to communicate, and turn out great models. WWX manage to communicate, and turn out great models. The idea that even cursory communication somehow takes away from their ability to deliver the miniatures is an idea only pushed by companies that are at communication. EDIT: And as Sining said, if you support them in their statement that "time not spent working on the minis is penalising every single backer", why won't you address the fact that they apparently have plenty of time to spare when it comes to posting images of weird fashion on their Tumblr page?

Or how about the fact that in their post they mentioned they were out and about until 5am. Jussayin