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Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

RoninXiC wrote:
Just got this as a Facebook msg.
It really looks like they just don't understand what is going wrong.


Hi RoninXiC,
I am glad that you appreciate our updates. However, the nature of what we do means that nothing is ever cast in stone. And indeed, a kickstarter does tend to plunge backers in the same flux of ambiguity and uncertainty that we, as entrepreneurs, have to live with every day.
I can understand that can be disconcerting.
That is why I try to make sure to say in my posts things like "We're tracking quite nicely...", or "I'll do my best for the end of the week-end, wish me luck".
If we don't follow through on something we said we'd do, it's never for lack of trying. We worked the entire week-end, 40 hours straight, and it's still not done. It's not done because in a creative process, there are always times when something just doesn't work, and we'll work on it until it does.
It's disheartening that we work so damn hard to get something right, and then we read comments such as the one you wrote. I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way if it were you... Believe me, if I could, I'd show everything now, and move on to the next project. But that would not be fair to you, to the backers, to the brand, to us.
I don't know how to prevent you from being disappointed. I wish I did. Because, let's face it, we're doing miniatures. For playing. For what, ultimately, will be a fun experience.
But it's a hard process, birthing these gals. And I need to keep my team's spirits up, and sometimes, that means deleting a comment that I know will drive them up the wall. Because otherwise, how am I going to keep getting them to work week-ends and late late nights?
Comments that you write on our page can contribute to that, and are most welcome. Because as a backer, you can help in that way. It has and it does makes a big difference.
And if you're at any time annoyed at some thing in some way, please, drop me a private message. I'll do my best to fix things for you. But I can't get into a shouting match on my page
Looking forward to your feedback,
Best,
Mireille




The process would probably be quicker and less painful if they were birthing these girls, And the artists would be about as emotionally fragile.



   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

A few minutes ago RH posted on the KS comments;

@Renegademech "Could we see the Jetgirls concept art?"
Absolutely they are done and we will show them this week.

@JenG: The problems that you have run into should be things that have been corrected by now. Can you please contact me directly (contact'at'ragingheroes.com) and let me know, together with images (if you have them of course), which problems you ran into, and for which minis? We've changed casters several time since our launch in 2009 to improve quality, so perhaps the issues you discuss have now been corrected. Of course, miscasts do happen, too, and this may have been the case. Or, it may also be something that we've missed. In any case, any specifics will help. For the past year or so, we've been enclosing a card with all our shipments. This card asks our customer to contact us when they have problems, so that we can fix them. But sometimes, with blisters (the card is too big for the blister), particularly when they are purchased in various shops, the card is not included. I look forward to your message.

@Rik Baker: I'm not sure why you got the Paypal survey, unless you perhaps made an additional payment via Paypal, perhaps for shipping charges? I tried to remove from the Paypal Survey all the Paypal contributors who had only sent in their missing shipping costs, but I may have missed a couple (the Paypal History downloads do not allow for all the customisation that I would need).
As for the Pledge Manager, as mentioned before, we will open it once we have shown the images for the minis that are part of the First Wave, to help you choose.

@Thargan: "I guess you lost the fight to get the images out before the end of last weekend? Any idea when we're likely to see some images now?"
I sure did :(
And it ain't for lack of trying! We worked over 40 hours over the entire week-end, but nevertheless ran into last-minute creative issues that could not be sorted in time… We're still at it tonight at 2:30AM, so my guess would be: tomorrow. We're doing our absolute best to get them out. Good thing we have cookies and M&M's to sustain the pace… But boy, the TGG troopers are looking sweet…


I figured that the planets might have aligned so I reposted the question about criticism, we shall see...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Venus is in the house of Mercury!

@Buzzsaw: I'm still not able to answer this at this time. We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that. The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback. It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc. So we are keeping all options open.


So "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account". Who could have predicted it?


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 01:27:32


   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

They are so full of gak it's hilarious.

You worked 40 hours over the weekend? Yeah. fething. Right.

 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

It's France. Their hours are different than our hours. And their definition of weekend is more like three or four days.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 01:51:25


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

@Cincydooly

That was my thought too. Having worked 40 hours out of 52 before (if I shaved the sleep from both sides of the equation) I'm gonna have to call BS. That or, they really, really need to work on their time management.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

The worse part is, a sensible businessperson would know that well rested troops perform better and are more creative than fatigue-addled brains.

Geez, what is this school of "real designers don't need sleep" crap? You,re not marines! Hit the sack, shut it and get some real work done.

If the jailbirds were so fething hot that you had to redo the other two bunches... releases the images of the jailbirds!

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

Cross posting;

LnR: Some further thought. If, as you say, "after finishing the Jailbirds Troopers, we really felt like they were now one notch above the IE and KST Troops...", the implication is that the Jailbirds are at top level while only the other two need polish.

So why not show the Jailbirds? Look at it this way: Kingdom Death, which at this point in time for many people is the gold standard of "oh god, such great updates!" doesn't wait for everything to be ready to push images to the backers. KD puts out what is ready when it is ready, and it has worked marvelously.

Additionally, let's consider the benefits of putting out the best look: if the aesthetic of that line is well accepted, you know that you are on the right track with polishing the other lines.

But if it isn't... doesn't it make sense to get some feedback now, rather then push your people twenty hours a day down a dead end? If it turns out the backers see something in the Jailbirds that you don't, then all the work you are currently doing on the IE and Kurg troops is just waste.

Releasing an update with only some of the figures seems to make a lot of sense, certainly more then holding onto everything to show it all at once.


I suppose I hadn't really thought of it before, but they really are clearly pursuing a path as if they are clearly aware of what the public wants, but at the same time seem amazingly frightened of actually showing people things.

Let's stop and think about how many interim iterations Poots has shown for KD:M, how many comments and unknown numbers of frank emails he is getting in feedback. It makes a great deal of sense to do it that way, since it minimizes wasting the one truly priceless thing: time.

What if, in their sleep deprived states, RH is pursuing a path that is only piling crap onto their figures? According to them they are working 20 hour days, but without a lick of feedback from the backers!

   
Made in ca
Hauptmann





 Breotan wrote:
It's France. Their hours are different than our hours. And their definition of weekend is more like three or four days.



Nah, they've found a way to make their use of time in a non-linear fashion. At least 80% (+/- 80%) of those hours were taken from weekends of the FUTURE! (ture...ture...ture)

But seriously, this is hilarious. From amazing feats of project management, to being such perfectionists that they can't even show the finished work that caused them to go back and re-do the rest out of artistic integrity, all the way to working for 83% (so close!) of the weekend (on things! FOR REASONS!) and still missing their self-imposed deadline for an update. And now damage control to defend the fragile sensibilities of their sculptors lest they... Well something non-specific, but definitely something (I imagine them sulking in to a glass of wine, a single tear running down their face... damn you cruel internet!)



They are truly as good as coming up with excuses as your average university slacker (I should know, we can smell our own ).

Shine on you crazy diamonds. Now where's mah beer and popcorn?
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Venus is in the house of Mercury!

@Buzzsaw: I'm still not able to answer this at this time. We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that. The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback. It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc. So we are keeping all options open.


So "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account". Who could have predicted it?


Assuming that they're being honest, isn't that the exact response they gave the most reasonable response to give? "Whether or not we will alter the models in response to feedback will depend on what the feedback suggests," seems way more reasonable than making an unrealistic promise to re-do them all from scratch to meet every niggling demand, or refusing to hear any kind of feedback at all. I really can't think of any more rational way to approach it, from this point, than what they did. Am I wrong?

Edit: Typo fixed. My bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 23:07:11


Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







 Jimsolo wrote:


Assuming that they're being honest, isn't that the exact response they gave the most reasonable response to give?


Huh?
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S

At this point they might as well just say that they're working on it at their own pace and outright tell us "When it's done, it's done"



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Pretty sure that's always been the message...

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




If that's the case, why are they claiming over and over again that "soon" they'll show stuff and in the end don't deliver?
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Well, update really has to be soon now, so I am looking forward to that

But I agree that if the Jailbirds looked amazing, it would make sense to go ahead and show them!
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

BrookM wrote:At this point they might as well just say that they're working on it at their own pace and outright tell us "When it's done, it's done"


Because we've been asking for them to deliver on their self-imposed deadline. They can't change the message yet again.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Pretty sure that's always been the message...


No, that's been the implied message in the lack of update. But whenever they comment it's always that the big update is coming soon, that we'll have pictures in a week, that the first wave will ship in September, that 80% of the sculpts will be done. We never asked for those statements, they were put forward voluntarily.

RoninXiC wrote:If that's the case, why are they claiming over and over again that "soon" they'll show stuff and in the end don't deliver?


I think they realized halfway through the KS that they weren't just getting free money, but that backers are twitter weaned self-entitled brats who demand progress reports, much in the way of investors (although we aren't quite that).

I've been thinking about this, and I'm about to rant, so you can stop reading here as it'll go a smidge off-topic, but is relevant to KS in general:

Kickstarter was meant as a way to bring to market a product that otherwise couldn't due to traditional banking and investment. It was meant to draw on a different model of community and creation, with "the people" voting with their wallets and creating a tight connection between buyer and inventor. What's missing in this particular example, unfortunately, is that they behave exactly like they got investment capital but without any strings attached since there is no interest and they didn't have to pitch it to a bank and have to be held accountable for it. It's not illegal, I wouldn't go so far as call it morally wrong, but it perverts the spirit of Kickstarter. It falls right back into the commodity fetichism that this system was built to counteract. It's crass. It removes all the feel-good aspect of Kickstarting a struggling band of misfits.

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Kickstarter does have allowance for refunds and people can challenge the payments they've made to the company. This is why communication is all important during and after a campaign because those funds are still at risk of backers pulling out.

Now granted one or two won't generally affect things (unless they invested a vast amount), but it can snowball if the community loses faith and if promenant backers announce and pull out.

It's why its very important for a company running a KS where the money is going into development and refinement of the product to keep the backer community in the loop. The more they do the more they can keep the faith; and in most cases well informed backers have no problem at all with significant delays because they've seen the progress as its going on - especially so for projects like this which grow significantly in content and orders over the course of the funding period.


the communication aspect isn't just a desirable or idealistic part of Kickstarters - its a core element in running one well and its a key area that many companies fail to appreciate as they do often just treat it like a big pre-order. KS isn't (in most cases) a pre order and to treat it as such is inviting problems.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

 Jimsolo wrote:
 Buzzsaw wrote:

Venus is in the house of Mercury!

@Buzzsaw: I'm still not able to answer this at this time. We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that. The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback. It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc. So we are keeping all options open.


So "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account". Who could have predicted it?


Assuming that they're being honest, isn't that the exact response they gave the most reasonable response to give? "Whether or not we will alter the models in response to feedback will depend on what the feedback suggests," seems way more reasonable than making an unrealistic promise to re-do them all from scratch to meet every niggling demand, or refusing to hear any kind of feedback at all. I really can't think of any more rational way to approach it, from this point, than what they did. Am I wrong?


I'm going to disagree with you fairly strenuously: I'd go so far as to say that they way they chose to answer that question is close to the worst way to answer it. Let's take a quick look at this from a PR standpoint;

"I'm still not able to answer this at this time." First of all, reading the rest of their comment makes it clear they do have an answer, as you'll see.

"We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that": Note the "constructive" bit. So if they aren't listening to you, it's your own damn fault for not being constructive. If it was constructive it would be listened to.

"The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback." And guys, you may be constructive, and we may "always listen to constructive feedback", but that doesn't mean we always do something about it. But they care. Or something.

"It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc." This may be the dumbest single sentence in that answer, because prior to here there was a perfectly good point they could be advancing. Which they just kicked in the nuts by saying that the important factor is "workload, production, schedules, etc". So if (for example) the backers cry out "why did you give then rhino noses?" the important thing is not fixing the schnozes, but the impact on "workload, production, schedules, etc". Ugh.

"So we are keeping all options open." Aaaaaaaargh. See, this bit makes everything that came before it irrelevant. It also means that the images shown are clearly not ""set in stone" and on the way to the casters". Let's assume it's actually true, how should they have answered the question?

Q: Just to clear something up; once more complete images do start showing up, will they be subject to critique/modification, or will they be "set in stone" and on the way to the casters?

A: We're listening to feedback and keeping all options open.


There is no functional difference between how they answered it and how I suggest they should have answered; I just took out the insulting bits and the parts that make them seem scatterbrained.

_______________________________

Now, having said all that, let's be clear: I don't want this company to do bad nor do I wish bad things on them. I'm just blown away by how they are sabotaging themselves in the PR department.

The stretch of time between the end of the KS campaign and fulfillment is ultimately about building your brand, or put another way, good will. Good will is hard to build and easy to burn, but the more of it you have, the better. RH seems to be burning good will at an almost unprecedented rate.

The simplest example of this is KD:M versus so many C'MoN campaigns. KD:M announces that they are going to deliver months late, and for the most part people say "oh, poo... but look at that stuff! Adam, let me throw more money at you!" This didn't come from nowhere, it came in the environment carefully nurtured by the way Adam has dealt with his backers since the campaign ended.

By contrast, Relic Knights announces "Hey guys, you know how we were going to be shipping in three weeks? Yeah, it's going to be 6 months and three weeks...". And the refund talk starts. Because in-between Soda Pop (makers of Relic Knights) and the backers sits C'MoN, a company with all the warmth and welcome of a fist in the rectum.

There is a simple lesson to all this, which everyone from doctors and lawyers to salesmen and little boys with snow-shovels knows: when people have a good connection with you, they take bad news better and want to help you out.

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Thank you. Exactly what I'm think right now.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







As usual, Buzzsaw nails it.

Thanks!
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Berlin

I have to say, that I am rather confused by how RH is handling Updates, since it is one, if not the most easiest things to do. Of course it depends on what kind of update you do but here we don't need fancy stuff. All the backers need are a few sentences, a few pictures and that's it. No videos, no podcast, no polls, no home stories, nothing else.

I think most people are okay with a delay of the miniatures but a delay on updates is something else. To me it is irritating when french work to the middle of the night and sometimes make their updates at that times. I don't really want them to work at weekends and at that daytimes, I don't care the girls come a month later but I do want to see a development. Something looks bad, well what's the matter? Just make a circle in photoshop or gimp or whatever programm at everything major and say this is something you're working at the moment or don't like and change later. And two weeks later you post both pictures side by side so we can see the differences.

Also, if something is ready why not posting it? Okay, we don't have 1 update we're waiting for, we have many small ones, like two times in a month - that is not bad but cool.

I didn't really get it, what was wrong with the first response on the Kurganova Gals. People critized it, they didn't like aspects which were already clear to be changed but here too you could have made the magic circles or arrows or.. just ignore the criticism on the parts which were about to change anyway. I saw many reactions in the past, regarding games, regardings miniatures, movies and this one was pretty decent, whith valid points.

For the future I hope RH evolves in that aspect of their work. I am certain the minis are going to be awesome but crowd funding is more than delivering a great product.

 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

Don't get me wrong, I'd like an update as much as the next guy, and I definitely wish for a world where my feedback would count. I don't think I ever expected any possibility that my feedback WOULD count though, so I guess the 'of course we'll listen to you' response doesn't really seem that far afield to me. I don't know if I'm biased, or other people are, or if the answer is somewhere in between, but I'm just not getting the 'insulting' vibe off of anything they've posted so far.

I DO agree that it's folly to tell us we MIGHT get an update. I'm fine with them keeping their progress to themselves and letting me know when there's something definite to report.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

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Made in us
Painting Within the Lines





CO

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm fine with them keeping their progress to themselves and letting me know when there's something definite to report.


But that's the problem we've seen so far, is that they're overpromising and under delivering (or not delivering, at all), so we can't tell any longer what is actual truth and what is hot air. Until we see actual updates that have some real meat on their bones, all we've paid for is concept art and and a rather weak post-Kickstarter experience.

I think we're all in agreement that we want the product to be good and want this to be a success for both RH and the backers, but some of us have been getting a bad taste in our mouths over the last few months, mostly due to RH's poor communication post project funding - which is easy to remedy by actually keeping people informed and involved.

~iPaint

iPaint's Workbench - a blog for all of my painting endeavors
Currently painting: 20mm WW2, 28mm Zombicide
In the pipeline: 28mm Reaper Bones, Dwarven Forge Game Tiles 
   
Made in us
Sergeant First Class



Northern VA

Well, I really don't want to read through 135 pages, so maybe some kind soul can give me a quick answer on two questions:

Plastic, resin, or metal?

Did the scale question ever get answered? The first couple pages of this thread people were saying they might be a little larger than 28s...
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

piperider361 wrote:
Well, I really don't want to read through 135 pages, so maybe some kind soul can give me a quick answer on two questions:

Plastic, resin, or metal?

Did the scale question ever get answered? The first couple pages of this thread people were saying they might be a little larger than 28s...


Plastic and metal.

They haven't showed us a thing so we have no idea about scale.

 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

A "brace for impact" update from RH's Facebook page;

Hi guys! After much polishing and nit-picking, everything is all ready for the final check tomorrow, together the rendering of the images. It will take a full day to render, so barring a machine breakdown, we hope to post the images late tomorrow. If not, the day after, but we'll keep you posted. As you can imagine, the last mile is always the longest... We can't wait to share them with you!


So... Thursday?

Seriously, this was posted 30 minutes ago, which is, what, 2:30 AM in France? 1:30?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/09 02:07:28


   
Made in us
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Raleigh, NC

 Buzzsaw wrote:
A "brace for impact" update from RH's Facebook page;

Hi guys! After much polishing and nit-picking, everything is all ready for the final check tomorrow, together the rendering of the images. It will take a full day to render, so barring a machine breakdown, we hope to post the images late tomorrow. If not, the day after, but we'll keep you posted. As you can imagine, the last mile is always the longest... We can't wait to share them with you!


So... Thursday?


80% sure.

DA:80S+GMB--I+Pw40k97-D++A++/fWD250R+T(M)DM+
2nd Co. Doom Eagles
World Eaters
High Elves 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

And they're stil just renders. Amazing.

 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

Hmmm.... Secrecy. Always working at night. Constantly fiddling with the details to capture the soul of human experience.


I'm thinking...




Honestly, though, if they go with polystyrene plastic, I'll forgive anything.

   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





UK

 Jimsolo wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'd like an update as much as the next guy, and I definitely wish for a world where my feedback would count. I don't think I ever expected any possibility that my feedback WOULD count though, so I guess the 'of course we'll listen to you' response doesn't really seem that far afield to me. I don't know if I'm biased, or other people are, or if the answer is somewhere in between, but I'm just not getting the 'insulting' vibe off of anything they've posted so far.

I DO agree that it's folly to tell us we MIGHT get an update. I'm fine with them keeping their progress to themselves and letting me know when there's something definite to report.


Hey Jim, pretty much agree with everything you've said. Just a small thing though, don't know if you were refering to me there, because I used the word 'insult' a few posts back. Just to be clear, I was refering to the twitter comment a while ago, which was insulting. I wasn't refering to the delaying of the update and the constant "a few hours, tonight, maybe tomorrow" stuff or anything, which I just find odd. Not insulting. It's just all strange.

Cheers

Angels Amaranthine - growing slowly

P&M blog ; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/488077.page

Currently 200pts 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S

Chances are something will go awry and it will get postponed again, so I'm not keeping my hopes up.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
 
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