Defiance Games- Power Armour Hardsuits Kickstarter

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**BobtheInquisitor**

That's all I'm in for. How I proceed depends on when I see those battle eggs.

**paulson games**

From TMP the "change in management" ain't looking so pretty, I hope nobody here is too heavily invested in the KS.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=294238&page=2

KenofYork 16 Oct 2013 6:34 p.m. PST
I would like to warn people that I have had an extremely unpleasant dealing with the new management. Be very careful about these guys. I am owed a lot of money and I have been informed that the new management will not pay debts owed by Tony. I have a very strong reason to believe the management shift was a shell game to make the kick starter look better. Can't prove it, but have a very strong feeling about it.

This company has been the worst dealings I have had in my limited time as a part time, one man plastic company. I will NEVER work with them again.

They had planned for me to make the plastic mech in the kick starter with out ever even talking to me about it. I found out I was the supplier after reading the kick starter and asking who was making it. I told them I would not be making anything for a company that owed me thousands of dollars and was making no attempt to pay. After I was paid for previous product I would be willing to look at the files and see what could be done. Well, they got a pile of money from kick starter and found someone else to make the mech. And they told me weeks ago they would be returning product, but they have not. This is NOT ok with me, but I have no choice. I would not have made the items if they had not ordered them. Still they have the items in their store, I have no money, and they are setting on almost $50,000 USD in kick starter money.

I am very sorry if this seems to be a bad business move to spread bad news about another company, but I am angry beyond the capacity for rational thought.

Be very careful dealing with them.

**BobtheInquisitor**

What was the product?

Now I feel bad for supporting the KS.

**paulson games**

Likely its the cargo containers that Ken was making for them. He'd supplied several thousand of them and if defiance can't pay for what they legally bought IMO it doesn't sound very good for them getting product to the people that pledged.

After two massive failures with their previous stuff I had no faith in them to do things right the third time. Ken is a stand up guy and provides a quality product. They should not be treating him that way and sure as heck need to pay their outstanding bill with him.

**CptJake**

paulson games wrote:
Likely its the cargo containers that Ken was making for them. He'd supplied several thousand of them and if defiance can't pay for what they legally bought IMO it doesn't sound very good for them getting product to the people that pledged.

After two massive failures with their previous stuff I had no faith in them to do things right the third time. Ken is a stand up guy and provides a quality product. They should not be treating him that way and sure as heck need to pay their outstanding bill with him.

Actually, I suspect though they will continue to feth over suppliers and some customers, they will eventually deliver some product to at least some pledgers. I also suspect that they will poorly manage the KS funds and deliver a product that is lesser quality than backers expect, at a later date than expected. There will be some problem with 'suppliers' that prevents poor poor Defiance from delivering the Uber Product they intended to during the timeline they claimed they would. (wanna bet the poor schmuck who is owed money gets a share of the blame for 'failing to deliver' on his part of making the mech, even though he did not sign up to do so?)

Seriously, I am amazed folks decided to give them money ahead of time again. If the stove top burned your hand the first time you touched it, and is still glowing red, you can generally assume it will burn your hand the second time you touch it.

And the third.

And the fourth.

**carlos13th**

I like the concept art on these but I am not willing to support the company. Would rather just wait until they are possibly released.

**Eilif**

Well, it looks like DG is not only terrible at customer service, product delivery and quality control, now they're patently dishonest as well. They will be getting none of my money until they make things right with Ken.

Ken is a good guy that I have dealt with many times ordering bases and terrain from his shop "Proxie Models". His Customer service is great and I've always been treated well. For DG to screw over a one-man shop that likely doesn't have the resources to fight legally is wrong on so many levels.

I've been following the battle egg product for years since it was a L&U concept idea on the website (and later forums) of Wargames Factory. It really is the ideal armored suit for my Venturan infantry and fits well with the aesthetic of the other mechs I've made for them. Despite my refusal to buy sight unseen from a company with a poor quality history, I was more than willing to wait and see and buy it from a FLGS if it turns out well. After seeing their treatment of Ken, I think I can live without egg suits.

In the meantime, here's my plugs for Ken, a good guy making great affordable products right here in the USA.

Bases and building kits from his company Proxie Models:
http://proxiemodels.com/store2/

Rust Forge is a more affordable and reliable distributor of Ken's Shipping containers:
http://rustforge.com/commerce/index.php/28mm-terrain/cargo-containers/iso-shipping-container.html

**Mathieu Raymond**

Oh for feth's sake.

I might as well write off my 25$ and forget about it. Live and learn.

So was Ken supposed to also make their JRAB/Humvee as well? If that's the case, I hope he didn't invest too much time in molds and such...

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

That's really bad news for Proxy

(although handing over product without substantial payment upfront was probably not a wise move)

He'd be wise to try legal action now while there is some KS cash around (if Defiance is the name on his contracts), even though that would probably kill any chance of the KS stuff getting produced

**Taarnak**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
That's really bad news for Proxy

(although handing over product without substantial payment upfront was probably not a wise move)

He'd be wise to try legal action now while there is some KS cash around (if Defiance is the name on his contracts), even though that would probably kill any chance of the KS stuff getting produced

That depends on what it would cost to take it to court. Might not be worth it.

Shame to hear this. I feel bad for Ken. Not surprised though...

~Eric

**Dr Mathias**

I will admit to being a little surprised a few months ago, when Proxie and Defiance were forming some sort of relationship and the containers and barricades showed up for sale in the Defiance store. I pretty much assumed that Proxie was actively supporting a USA home grown company (Defiance). I figured maybe Ken knew something we didn't...

I have multiples of all of Proxie's 28mm offerings, I like them a lot, and really admire his tenacity and what he's trying to accomplish. I just received the new barricades yesterday.

I also backed the Defiance KS, and frankly knew that there was a really good chance I was flushing the money going into it. I thought it was worth a try, and worth trying to support them getting on their feet if they wanted to change.

I'm not hugely surprised by this, but it is really a damn shame. For some reason I place a lot of value on Ken's statement, I've been following his blog since it started, so I don't think he's blowing steam.

I was told that when Tony Reidy ran WGF, their shipping records were kept in a single Word text document. That was how organized and prepared to run a business they were. "New" Defiance is in a position now where they CANNOT afford to F up, they've got a lot of money on the public record and they WILL get sued over this if they fail to deliver. As far as I know, the 'company' has to pay debts, it doesn't matter who was the 'leader' so the 'we're not paying' strategy just doesn't seem viable. Unless there's no records.

WGF worked really hard to make things right with the customers that Reidy stiffed. If they didn't, it was because Tony's WGF had no records, and if they did, they didn't share them when the changeover took place.

Anxious to see what happens, although now we're on "Kickstarter Time', which always seems to be in a different continuum then our own.

**CptJake**

Dr Mathias wrote:
"New" Defiance is in a position now where they CANNOT afford to F up, they've got a lot of money on the public record and they WILL get sued over this if they fail to deliver. As far as I know, the 'company' has to pay debts, it doesn't matter who was the 'leader' so the 'we're not paying' strategy just doesn't seem viable. Unless there's no records.

I disagree 100%. They can continue on the path they are on, and do fine, as evidenced by the fact that folks like you who knew of their past still backed the KS. Next time they will still have their hard core fans support and sucker in a bunch of new folks, and the folks like you were this time that decide to 'give them another chance' will add to their revenue.

You can't sue if a KS fails to deliver, ALL the risk is carried by the backers.

If Proxie can't afford the court case (or does not have written contracts and other documentation to back up their claim against Defiance), Defiance skates on that too.

**AlexHolker**

CptJake wrote:
You can't sue if a KS fails to deliver, ALL the risk is carried by the backers.

You're a sucker if you believe that. This is a pre-order and sold as a pre-order, and as such is subject to the same consumer protection laws as any other sale. The self-serving claim that the customer has no rights does not stand up to scrutiny.

**Mathieu Raymond**

I can settle for a loss of 25$. Which is probably how they get away with it.

But to screw Ken over, that doesn't sit well with me. I do hope his contract is with Defiance and not in Tony's name. Again, I don't know how it works in the US or in international business law, but in Canada, the company is a "moral individual" (cue the Mitt Romney "Corportions are people, my friend" line) and must abide by a contract or be liable in court. And it's not like they haven't sold the containers, apparently they were shocked that many people ordered the 500$ deal.

**Dr Mathias**

CptJake wrote:

They can continue on the path they are on, and do fine, as evidenced by the fact that folks like you who knew of their past still backed the KS. Next time they will still have their hard core fans support and sucker in a bunch of new folks, and the folks like you were this time that decide to 'give them another chance' will add to their revenue.

A personal weakness of mine is giving second chances to people and, sometimes, businesses. I was partly taken in by "Tony's Gone!" announcements, but I figured even if these powersuits turned out as Dollar Store quality the price was acceptable. I really didn't stop to consider that I might be actively supporting intentional charlatans. I kind of always imagined the "Old WGF" and "Old Defiance" crew (Reidy excepted) were good natured but bumbling doofuses when it came to business decisions, and that in general, groups of people can learn from mistakes.

I'll gladly accept 0.097% of the blame for keeping Defiance going, which is my percentage contribution to the KS.

**BobtheInquisitor**

CptJake wrote:
paulson games wrote:
Likely its the cargo containers that Ken was making for them. He'd supplied several thousand of them and if defiance can't pay for what they legally bought IMO it doesn't sound very good for them getting product to the people that pledged.

After two massive failures with their previous stuff I had no faith in them to do things right the third time. Ken is a stand up guy and provides a quality product. They should not be treating him that way and sure as heck need to pay their outstanding bill with him.

Actually, I suspect though they will continue to feth over suppliers and some customers, they will eventually deliver some product to at least some pledgers. I also suspect that they will poorly manage the KS funds and deliver a product that is lesser quality than backers expect, at a later date than expected. There will be some problem with 'suppliers' that prevents poor poor Defiance from delivering the Uber Product they intended to during the timeline they claimed they would. (wanna bet the poor schmuck who is owed money gets a share of the blame for 'failing to deliver' on his part of making the mech, even though he did not sign up to do so?)

Seriously, I am amazed folks decided to give them money ahead of time again. If the stove top burned your hand the first time you touched it, and is still glowing red, you can generally assume it will burn your hand the second time you touch it.

And the third.

And the fourth.

I was afraid that no thread would ever come close to the greatness of the Raging Heroes thread, but then Defiance went all-in and put their (someone else's?) snarglies on the table. $25 is a small price to pay for Dakka immortality.

**Eilif**

As far as KS accountability I'm afraid that CaptJake is probably correct.
While a backer(s) could conceivably go to court, maybe do a class action, etc, in practical terms, it's unlikely. It's a huge undertaking, with large legal fees, especially when most folks are only in a few tens of dollars. I haven't heard of many failure-to-deliver KS's that have resulted in legal action to get back the backer's $.

Also, the fact that the KS hit 50k, shows just how willing folks are to overlook a bad track record, or not research the company they are supporting.
DG is a company that released three subpar products in a row with three missed deadlines. Yet all it took was a new and unproven management team and the fact that they were rebadging Cargo containers (designed and produced by Proxie) and folks were willing to open their wallets for a moderate discount.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
So was Ken supposed to also make their JRAB/Humvee as well? If that's the case, I hope he didn't invest too much time in molds and such...

From what has been said, I don't think so. Ken says that DG assumed he'd make their mechs without asking him, and when he refused to work on them without being paid for his containers they found someone else. I'm not sure who was doing the JRAB originally or who was going to make the new (plastic?) version.

**Mathieu Raymond**

From the Book of Faces:

Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you

-Gary

Followed by some comments asking why the response would take a week:

err... why wait a week? you owe Proxie Models money, right? so why not just pay them, and then announce that you've done so? i've bought several of your kits but will cease being a customer until this is resolved.

I think waiting a week will be too late, apart from the threads on various forums, it's now become an official news item on one of the wargames news sites. Far better to pay off Proxie for the cargo containers you've already sold right now and put an end to the gossip!

**warboss**

I do hope that they resolve the issue of payment and don't just come out with a statement about it.

**JoshInJapan**

I suspect that the response will take a week because that is when their next podcast is supposed to be released.

**Cypher-xv**

And they gotta come up with really good BS. That takes time.

**Sining**

Probably takes a week for them to get enough money to send proxie models a C&D lawyer letter just to intimidate the other guy -_-

**carlos13th**

This has come up on their facebook.

Hello, I'm in a bit of an odd situation here. I was going to prepare a statement regarding Ken from Proxie models and his posts regarding our business transactions on various forums and release that statement next week along with our newest pod cast. Then, there were several messages asking me to comment now. So I did, and all my comments were twisted and spun as I'm sure this message will be as well. I'm damned if I speak up, I'm damned if I'm silent. It's a no win situation for me no matter what I do. But, I feel that I owe it to the customers who have stuck by us to explain what I can as best I can. So I'll do that.
Some think that this is some ploy from Tony Reidy and that you're all being tricked by him. It's not. Tony is out as far as running things.
We are currently in the midst of a company wide reorganization. Tony Reidy has nothing to do with any financial aspects of the company. That's all I can say until things are finalized. Once they are there will be a formal announcement.

I've been reading all the posts left here and elsewhere regarding Proxie-gate as we have come to call it here.
I'm going to say this final word regarding it and will be addressing it in next weeks pod cast then I'm dropping this subject and moving foreword. I'm looking ahead and not back. Take that how you want to.
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
Our intention is to fulfill the Kickstarter and move on from all this. We have a lot to do and we will show everyone that we are not the Old Defiance Games. It's possible that the shadows of the old company will haunt us forever. I hope that's not the case and I'll do everything I can to get past that. I understand we have a lot to prove and I know it's not going to be easy.
I also want to thank everyone for all the support I've gotten from friends, family and customers. I sincerely appreciate it. -Gary

For all its length it actually says very little.

**warboss**

Not paying your supplier of one of the only new products you've offered over the past year is a " a good business decision at that moment"? I guess so in a cutthroat 1890's robber baron sort of way as long as he doesn't sue or the info doesn't go public.

**Ouze**

I'm glad to hear it sounds like Ken will be made whole - I like his stuff a lot, and am a customer. I also feel a little relieved that I decided to withdraw my pledge on this; these guys really do seem quite shady.

**Mathieu Raymond**

In the interest of fairness maybe we can wait until Ken updates his side of the story since this has been published?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well that didn't take as long as I thought:

KenofYork
Ok, here is a long response that I will post on the 2 other forums where this has bled over in to as well.

1. It seems ironic for Defiance to accuse Proxie of unethical business behavior. I wrestled with this for a long time because I knew it would reflect poorly on me to be seen attacking another company. I also considered it more unethical to remain silent and have others lose out. I made a decision and it seems to have stirred things up a bit.

2. Gary and me pretty much hate each other. If you read my blog you might have noticed a tendency to be a bit blunt. Gary seems to pride himself on his honesty and I sent him numerous e-mails accusing him of being a liar and a cheat. I was counting on this money to pay a major expense and it hurt my family to not be paid. I was angry and he took the brunt of it. The last message I sent him I asked for Tony to come back. Since Tony is blamed for everything from global warming to bad pop songs I think this really Bleeped texted him off. Tony is not as bad as he is made out, he was not operating in a vacuum at Defiance, and it is simply outrageous for him to be the sole focus of every problem.

3. All of my business is conducted by emails. Some one sends me an e-mail for an order, I make the stuff and e-mail them an invoice, they pay electronically, and we are all happy. I have never had a signed legal contract with any of my suppliers, or with any of my customers. The standard Defiance is trying to apply is absurd and I wonder how many other people in the industry really get a lawyer and have a legal document drawn up to place a simple order. I sent Gary the e-mails, but by this time we were pretty much done with each other. I called him my sworn foe, a term I have not used since that particularly troublesome NPC in a role play campaign about 25 years ago.

4. I am not getting paid, not now or never. I burnt that bridge, then blew it up with dynamite, then mined the water to prevent fording. Gary is ready to fight it out in court. I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

5. At this point I am ready to call it a day and have a drink or 5. Whatever. Life is too short for all this crap. Anger is not usually a part of my life and I need to get it out of me. So consider the matter closed and I will go about my business and they can go about theirs. People can decide who they want to deal with and who they do not want to deal with. I may look like an ass for exposing this, or Defiance may look like an ass for the way they acted. If I can save one person the frustration I have felt it will have been worth it.

Anyhow, I am finished with this and let's all get back to regular scheduled programing.

**-iPaint-**

I'm always amazed at the amount of drama that surrounds Defiance Games, and how they tend to bring out the worst in the people that they do business with...

Props to Ken for bringing it to light. We'll see if DG makes good on their word.

Popcorn may be necessary for this thread.

~iPaint

**Alpharius**

Really glad I didn't back this one, for a variety of reasons.

Still, best of luck to everyone who did!

**Mathieu Raymond**

Update #21 Nov 7, 2013
Updates!

Hey All,

So sorry for the silence everyone. Though it is not an excuse to be silent here I have been under the weather for the past couple of weeks and we have had some internal issues we have been sorting through. We'll have a bigger update tomorrow with some more pics but here is a small taste of what we've had cooking.

-Max

Prelim Female Marine bodies (WIP)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Update #22 Nov 8, 2013
Some more pics

The hardsuits are with the sculptor now being tweaked. I have a couple of screenshots from him below as well as another peek at our Female Marines.

note: the Female Marines are hand sculpted not digital printouts and they will not be included with these bases, they are still WIPs

approximate hardsuit size vs. UAMC Marines

pieced together NCO WIP

**CptJake**

I bet a lot of folks are happy that is a WIP. Hopefully for folks that pre-ordered them a lot more W and P get done on that.