Defiance Games- Power Armour Hardsuits Kickstarter

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**BobtheInquisitor**

It's good to see Rob Liefeld reaching out into a new medium.

**RiTides**

CptJake wrote:
I bet a lot of folks are happy that is a WIP. Hopefully for folks that pre-ordered them a lot more W and P get done on that.

Lol

and agreed, unfortunately...

**Mathieu Raymond**

In the meatime... still no shots of the hardsuits except the tired old renders.

**plastictrees**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
In the meatime... still no shots of the hardsuits except the tired old renders.

Have they 'revealed' those screenshots before?

**Mathieu Raymond**

Not the arm ones, but the missile pods had been released, and complete renders with a starry night background had also been released. Complete with breadknives as a CCW.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Just to make sure I reach all the peeps I can, I posted this in Discussions already:

A source that wishes to remain nameless (and I can't vouch for their credibility either, so salt if you wish) has confirmed that Tony was always in charge.

On top of that, and the alleged lawsuits, there is internal conflict for the control of Defiance.

Source says that the KS money is gone or will be in short order.

Maybe this plays into our confirmation bias about the company, but it certainly sounds plausible. And not even a PM will get me to reveal that source. I was trusted with this information, I shall be worthy of that trust.

It was a 30$ ill spent.

**Barzam**

Well, I guess I'm not seeing any of that money. It'd be nice if they can at least somehow manage to deliver something to the people that backed the KS. Is there any way to get my money back now that it's all over?

**BrookM**

You can always try and get a refund through your credit card company.

**Azazelx**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:

A source that wishes to remain nameless (and I can't vouch for their credibility either, so salt if you wish) has confirmed that Tony was always in charge.
It was a 30$ ill spent.

No source needed. Those two points were always a given, as far as I was concerned...

**Mathieu Raymond**

Call me an idealist... and a sucker I guess. I tend to be too forgiving and give people a chance. If only there was a way to enforce better business practices on the 'lectronic frontier...

**Azazelx**

As penance, you must now buy something from Rustforge and something from Proxie Models...

**JoshInJapan**

Azazelx wrote:
As penance, you must now buy something from Rustforge and something from Proxie Models...

I did both, despite the outrageous overseas postage. Very nice, and I may have to get some more stuff when I'm back in the US next month.

**scarletsquig**

Well, there's a lot of people that will back them if they make another kickstarter because the made in America thing is very popular.

I don't think they have to worry too much, people have short memories.

**lord_blackfang**

BrookM wrote:
You can always try and get a refund through your credit card company.

I think Kickstarter and Amazon might have an issue with that, though.

**warboss**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Call me an idealist... and a sucker I guess. I tend to be too forgiving and give people a chance. If only there was a way to enforce better business practices on the 'lectronic frontier...

If you feel the need to scratch that itch again, feel free to send me paypal cash and I'll give you something to forgive.

Eh, like you said, you went in eyes wide open and technically nothing *YET* bad has happened.

**CptJake**

warboss wrote:

If you feel the need to scratch that itch again, feel free to send me paypal cash and I'll give you something to forgive. Eh, like you said, you went in eyes wide open and technically nothing *YET* bad has happened.

Unless of course you look at it from the perspective of Proxie Models and Rustforge of course...

**Barzam**

Who knows, maybe Tony will wind up getting ousted and we'll actually get the things we were promised. I mean, they have sent out updates since the KS ended. Why go to the effort if you're just going to screw over your backers?

**Taarnak**

Barzam wrote:
Who knows, maybe Tony will wind up getting ousted and we'll actually get the things we were promised. I mean, they have sent out updates since the KS ended. Why go to the effort if you're just going to screw over your backers?

To make it look like they are spending the money on the project as per the terms of use with KS?

I wouldn't hold my breath on Tony getting ousted. Knew it was a sham at the beginning of this KS and I wish more folks had listened.

I sincerely hope you get your product, but I suspect if you get anything it will be substandard, unfortunately.

~Eric

**CptJake**

Taarnak wrote:
Barzam wrote:
Who knows, maybe Tony will wind up getting ousted and we'll actually get the things we were promised. I mean, they have sent out updates since the KS ended. Why go to the effort if you're just going to screw over your backers?

To make it look like they are spending the money on the project as per the terms of use with KS?

~Eric

Exactly. They will assuredly have some documentation to show they made a valiant effort to deliver and spent the funds in a legitimate attempt to do so. This will make it very difficult for backers to recoup any money lost. The longer the time between paying and asking your credit card company to reverse the charges also makes it hared to go that route (after 6 months it will prove very difficult in most cases).

**richred_uk**

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/topics.mv?id=30

One by one the supporters of defiance draw back the curtains. If you don´t know, Mexican jack squint is Howard Whitehouse, the writer of the Alien wars rules defiance were setting their figures around.

**-iPaint-**

Here's a direct link to the thread in question:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=327045

Really hope the people who backed this see some form of reward eventually - whether its actual miniatures, or just part of their pledge money that makes it back to them somehow.

I, however, stayed away from this KS like the plague, since anything Defiance Games* does seems to be absolute gak and takes forever to reach market.

~iPaint

*when ran under TtBHJ

**Mathieu Raymond**

Update #23 Nov 18, 2013
Survey says...

Well, it doesn't anything right now because we are interested in getting your feedback. There are many of you who have been involved in many different Kickstarter's in the past. We have been looking at two survey management services/software: one is called After the Crowd and the other is called BackerKit.

If any of you have experience with these - or other methods - please let us know here. We want to finalize the survey and get it out to everyone ASAP as we move forward with the sets.

Also we are going to try to have regular updates here at least weekly - and hopefully more as we roll things out. Many of you have noticed we closed our online store for the time being as we are reorganizing things and want to focus 100% on the Kickstarter production. Although February seems like an eternity away, it will be on us quickly!

This was from late yesterday, I believe.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Update #24 Nov 19, 2013
Hardsuit Progress and Next Steps

I just got off the phone with Nick Genovese who is sculpting some of the extra heads that will go in with the hardsuit sets. These are the operator heads - not the "head" of the suit itself. Those teeny bits of the project will be well in hand as Nick is great to work with and quite talented!

The heads are the only part of the set that will be sculpted by hand - the rest is all digital design which will require 3D printing to create masters.

Because of the high level of detail in the sculpts, we are going to 3D print them in wax.

Wax has the benefit of taking incredible amounts of detail and requires less clean up than other types of 3D printing but the downside is that the prints are VERY fragile. Because of this we're using the tried-and-true method to turn the wax prints into metal masters - lost wax investment casting. This process will let us print in wax - turn those prints into brass master casts - and then use those casts to build our final molds.

As we start this process we'll keep you updated with pics of the parts and show you how it's going. We're just finishing up the last tweaks to the 3D files to get them ready for the printing/investment casting service.

That all said, we have another question to ask everyone. During the Kickstarter there was a change to the hardsuits proposed and we want to make sure everyone has a chance to give feedback on this change: the final size of the hardsuits.

Alex Iglesias' concept art and first orthos showed the hardsuits being basically man-sized. They were designed to have an operator inside like so:

However, in designing the suits it ended up that the positioning of the arms would have to be altered in such a way that the operator would have to dislocate their shoulder and rip their arms off in order to fit into the actual arms of the suit! See here:

This was fine - it actually allowed us to have some interesting arm options. You can see at this point of design that the sizing is still meant to be basically man-sized.

But then during the Kickstarter there was an announcement that we'd be making the suits a larger size which would be more along these lines:

This is clearly much larger than what was originally envisioned by Alex. However, the beauty of 3D printing is that we can choose and print in any mm size we want it to be without having to change anything (there is one area that requires change which is the open cockpit - but that's a fairly minor detail compared to the whole suit)

Anyway, given all this we'd love to have your feedback as to what the final sizing should be. Neither choice will effect our timeline. We just want to know which size is most useful in your gaming and modeling? Which size will make you happy? Let us know!

**BobtheInquisitor**

So long as Tony doesn't try to tinker with the wax mix or the printing process the way he tinkered with the trollcast, then I'm sure it will all turn out...comedically tragic, really. But with less face-palming.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I hope they use this process on some upcoming Brazilian troops.

You know why.

**CptJake**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So long as Tony doesn't try to tinker with the wax mix or the printing process the way he tinkered with the trollcast, then I'm sure it will all turn out...comedically tragic, really. But with less face-palming.

So long as the guy doing the heads decides to deliver his product before being paid and agrees not to sue for what he is owed, sounds like they have a plan.

**Azazelx**

It really is like watching a slow-motion car crash ...on endless repeat.

**Buzzsaw**

Not to cast doubts, but is lost wax really an appropriate method for making miniature masters?

I've actually done it myself, but on a larger art piece (and in bronze, I think) that was then refinished with a grinder and sander. I'm very much not in the know on such things, but... it just seems like (given previous experience) this is adding a step that could potentially cause a real loss of detail.

**Bolognesus**

They wouldn't be the only ones to do it (I believe Anvil does it as well?) and from what I've seen of those techniques, it works quite well. It's not going to produce masters which will stay good on their own but that's why you make a couple of master casts (among other reasons).

**CptJake**

Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to cast doubts, but is lost wax really an appropriate method for making miniature masters?

I've actually done it myself, but on a larger art piece (and in bronze, I think) that was then refinished with a grinder and sander. I'm very much not in the know on such things, but... it just seems like (given previous experience) this is adding a step that could potentially cause a real loss of detail.

I know it is used in jewelry making, and for some relatively intricate pieces. I am more concerned with the sculptor. Being able to make rings does not necessarily translate to being able to sculpt 28mm faces.

Of course, betting on this working and actually getting to market, regardless of the sculpting or casting methods, would be silly.

**Buzzsaw**

CptJake wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to cast doubts, but is lost wax really an appropriate method for making miniature masters?

I've actually done it myself, but on a larger art piece (and in bronze, I think) that was then refinished with a grinder and sander. I'm very much not in the know on such things, but... it just seems like (given previous experience) this is adding a step that could potentially cause a real loss of detail.

I know it is used in jewelry making, and for some relatively intricate pieces. I am more concerned with the sculptor. Being able to make rings does not necessarily translate to being able to sculpt 28mm faces.

Of course, betting on this working and actually getting to market, regardless of the sculpting or casting methods, would be silly.

See, that's how I used it essentially, as it is used in jewelry casting. It works quite well there, but (as I understand this) an additional step is being added.

That is, we would make the wax part, then use that to make the negative mold, which would then be filled with the final molten metal mix.

Here, it seems an additional casting step is added: the wax will make a negative mold, which will be used to make a positive master, which will then be used to make a secondary set of negative molds.

Like I said though, while I felt the whole thing seems wonky, Bolognesus seems to be implying that other companies do it, so perhaps it's just fine.

**Dr Mathias**

A master made from a lost wax method shouldn't have any mold lines- that's one advantage. I'm not worried about the level of detail.

Not sure how many gates they'd need, there are lots of things that can go wrong casting metal with lost wax and I'd be shocked if they get it right the first time. Hopefully they'll outsource a pro to do it, then the R&D is on them.