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EDIT: I would love to know if the Gorgon Death Korps of Krieg bunch is standard size or a little smaller than normal. Thank you. I have always loved guard (and once I read the DKoK lore I was sold) and this is the only thing separating me from a nice batch of 50.
EDIT2: The seller replied early this morning, the particular picture I on the bottom of this post is a remould.


I saw somebody post some painted Death Korps of Krieg in the showcase section, they looked amazing. This post is not about that, but this is how i started wanting some Kreig for myself. I was looking around online, and saw what look like fakes to me, since they have resin all around them (picture below). Are these fakes, or is this how forgeworld puts these models out? The deal looked way too good to be true to me. Also, what are the general rules of playing with fake miniatures? I know it varies by your local place, but just generally, are they allowed in a non-tourney game or tourney games? I speant about a grand on my army and I wouldn't be too happy if somebody started playing tournies with fakes, just doesn't seem fair to me.

Anyway, thanks in advance!

Edit: Oh, and I just did some extra research on the seller, he sells the same group every month it seems and he is from Russia, if that helps at all.

Id take a quick guess and say they are maybe these from FW?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG_INFANTRY_AND_ACCESSORIES/DEATH-KORPS-OF-KRIEG-INFANTRY-SQUADS-FOR-GORGON.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could of course also be recasts if they are really cheap.

Hahah, it's funny that you'd bring these up. These are legitimate Forgeworld models, believe it or not. They're actually made for the Gorgon Assault transport - hence why they're at all 'at ease' and in a single row, rather than separate. The site seems to be down as I'm writing this, but here's the link for when they get it together: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG_INFANTRY_AND_ACCESSORIES/DEATH-KORPS-OF-KRIEG-INFANTRY-SQUADS-FOR-GORGON.html

Now as far as the deal being too good to be true, that's because they're not made for use as individual guardsman. BUT that's not to say it can't be done! There are numerous people who order the gorgon squads because it's a cheap way to get a helluva lot of Death Korp quick - at least compared to how much buying separate squads is... whew. That's a spendy army you're looking at there. If you're good with an exacto and maybe a bit of green stuff, you can make a pretty decent squad out of these guys. They're all 'at ease', as you can see, so they're not particularly dynamic, but they're still damn good casts. Here is not only an excellent thread on separating them, with some finished products to give you an idea of how they look. Personally, I think it looks great, and if you want to save a bit of money when you're making you DKoK army, more power to you http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58799

Lastly, as I have stated, they're not fake miniatures. Since these are legit Forgeworld, they're completely legal. That being said, even if they weren't, it's really up to wherever you're playing. Some people are absolute tightasses on proxies and 'counts as' models and won't play with you unless you have 100% WYSIWYG Games Workshop pieces. Then there are some relaxed Kiwis who, as I heard recently, let a guy play in a tournament using lego battle droids as Necrons. So much win.

Anyway, hope this helps mate, cheers!

Yes, these are fake. Anyone selling multiple copies of a FW kit like that is a recaster. FW doesn't sell through retail stores so nobody has a legitimate inventory of FW kits. Any legitimate sales you see on ebay are from random people who decide to clear out some stuff they don't want anymore, and they aren't going to regularly post the exact same kit over and over again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Also, what are the general rules of playing with fake miniatures? I know it varies by your local place, but just generally, are they allowed in a non-tourney game or tourney games?

If you use fake models in a store and admit it you should be happy if the owner doesn't smash them with a hammer. Recasting and rulebook piracy are bad for business. However, there's no way to tell if a painted model is a recast or not, so in practice nobody is ever going to know unless you're stupid enough to brag about it.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, these are fake. Anyone selling multiple copies of a FW kit like that is a recaster. FW doesn't sell through retail stores so nobody has a legitimate inventory of FW kits. Any legitimate sales you see on ebay are from random people who decide to clear out some stuff they don't want anymore, and they aren't going to regularly post the exact same kit over and over again.

Actually, that's not entirely true. There are several dealers who order wholesale from the sites that sell GW miniatures for much cheaper, bump the price up just a tad, and sell regularly on ebay, or other places. No it's not entirely in line with GW policy, but most of us are looking to get the best deal here.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you use fake models in a store and admit it you should be happy if the owner doesn't smash them with a hammer. Recasting and rulebook piracy are bad for business. However, there's no way to tell if a painted model is a recast or not, so in practice nobody is ever going to know unless you're stupid enough to brag about it.

That's pretty rude, he was asking for clarification not a lecture. Not sure what awful game store you play at (unless you own one, that would make sense). I was thinking that people were being overdramatic when they talked about how you acted on the forum, but clearly I was wrong.

Cheers

Alright, wow, I guess they actually are real. It said they were for the gorgon. Thanks for the info guys, I may actually pick em up. The price is about the same as listed on FW, only a little cheaper considering shipping.

Glad we could help mate! Good luck on your DKoK army, and don't forget to post pictures on the P&M Showcase board when you're done!

 SweaterKittens wrote:
Actually, that's not entirely true. There are several dealers who order wholesale from the sites that sell GW miniatures for much cheaper, bump the price up just a tad, and sell regularly on ebay, or other places. No it's not entirely in line with GW policy, but most of us are looking to get the best deal here.

No there are not. This strategy works with "normal" GW products since retail stores buy from GW at significantly below retail price and can sell them to the customer at a discount if they're willing to sacrifice a bit of profit margin. It does not work with FW products because the only* way to get FW products is to pay full retail price and order direct from FW. If anyone is selling a full inventory of FW kits below retail price then they are either taking a loss on every single sale or getting them from illegal reacasters at less than retail price. I'll leave it up to you to decide which of these is more likely.

*Other than random ebay purchases from people clearing out models they don't want, which isn't consistent enough to run a store.

That's pretty rude, he was asking for clarification not a lecture.

Sorry, but if you're asking "how can I play with stolen property in a store that depends on legal purchases to stay in business" then you deserve a lecture.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sorry, but if you're asking "how can I play with stolen property in a store that depends on legal purchases to stay in business" then you deserve a lecture.

I don't think I was asking that at all. In fact I came here to check to make sure I WOULDN'T buy fake minis and I don't appreciate you insinuating that I asked, "how can I play with stolen property in a store that depends on legal purchases to stay in business." In fact I take offense to that. Please don't continue to post in this thread in such an offensive manner.

 Ryan_A wrote:
Alright, wow, I guess they actually are real. It said they were for the gorgon. Thanks for the info guys, I may actually pick em up. The price is about the same as listed on FW, only a little cheaper considering shipping.

Why would you but from a russian guy where you are unsure of the quality and legitimacy of a product when you can buy it directly from forgeworld for a little more?

tedurur wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Alright, wow, I guess they actually are real. It said they were for the gorgon. Thanks for the info guys, I may actually pick em up. The price is about the same as listed on FW, only a little cheaper considering shipping.

Why would you but from a russian guy where you are unsure of the quality and legitimacy of a product when you can buy it directly from forgeworld for a little more?

I would save $20 on a $80 order. While I don't feel obligated to divulge my finances or my current situation I will say that money is tight right now (I barely have more than $70 spending money) and the happiness that painting 50 models would bring would help me through these rough times (I am just now entering DBT). I still may hold out and buy them from forgeworld, but as I said, money is tight and $20 is a lot.

 Ryan_A wrote:
I would save $20 on a $80 order.

Then it is a recast. The models alone from FW are $85, or about $100 after shipping cost and currency conversion fees. If you're saving $20 on that then you are paying less than retail price and therefore buying illegal recasts. It's up to you whether your conscience will allow you to buy illegal recasts just to save $20.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Also, what are the general rules of playing with fake miniatures? I know it varies by your local place, but just generally, are they allowed in a non-tourney game or tourney games?

If you use fake models in a store and admit it you should be happy if the owner doesn't smash them with a hammer. Recasting and rulebook piracy are bad for business. However, there's no way to tell if a painted model is a recast or not, so in practice nobody is ever going to know unless you're stupid enough to brag about it.

Not only would vandalizing your property like that be illegal, some non-GW stores don't actually care about models that they don't stock, i.e. Forge World. Hell, there are actually a lot of reasonable people in the world, including store owners, that will actually allow you to use things you didn't buy from them! Shocking, I know.

You should know one key factor before you decide that is the way to go. The gorgon kit are significantly smaller in proportion and are molded together. There are tutorials on seperating them into individual models but honestly if you are going to do that get a job at McDonalds and you will save yourself 3 hours of green stuff work for every hour you work.

Peregrine is actually very correct on who does sell forgeworld. You can buy it from forgeworld, random models in trades, or buy it from frontline gaming (or FLGS) at an upmark which can help remedy the small order shipping fees.

BTW I would try to not make what people post about you on the internet something that affects you. Overall you will just get upset if you do.

 Talore wrote:
Not only would vandalizing your property like that be illegal, some non-GW stores don't actually care about models that they don't stock, i.e. Forge World. Hell, there are actually a lot of reasonable people in the world, including store owners, that will actually allow you to use things you didn't buy from them! Shocking, I know.

It's not about using things you didn't buy from a store, it's about promoting the idea that it's ok to buy and use illegal recasts. A store has (or should have) a strong interest in preventing people from using recasts or thinking that recasts are acceptable, since the recasters are perfectly happy to sell you recasts of GW plastic kits along with those FW kits. That's not at all the same as allowing you to use a legal kit that you bought from a different store, since at least you're still buying legally and giving an honest store the sales.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
I would save $20 on a $80 order.

Then it is a recast. The models alone from FW are $85, or about $100 after shipping cost and currency conversion fees. If you're saving $20 on that then you are paying less than retail price and therefore buying illegal recasts. It's up to you whether your conscience will allow you to buy illegal recasts just to save $20.

Actually the models are $81 including shipping, just checked. I don't agree with your logic on "saving $20, therefore buying illegal recasts," since I save much more than $20 (or %25) every time I buy from the swap shop. I am an ethics major and I don't have a conscience, though I wouldn't buy recasts as I like to be able to build armies that I can sell if I don't like them, and trading in illegal models would be bad for my reputation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
The gorgon kit are significantly smaller in proportion and are molded together.

Thank you very much for this information, I may not buy the kit at all if this is the case. Thank you.

 Ryan_A wrote:
Actually the models are $81 including shipping, just checked.

Then you are buying recasts. The models sell for £53 (link), which is $84 at current exchange rates. $81 is less than retail price, so anyone selling them for that price is losing at least $3 on every sale. And that's not even considering shipping costs.

TL,DR: there is no debate here, the models you are considering are recasts.

I don't agree with your logic on "saving $20, therefore buying illegal recasts," since I save much more than $20 (or %25) every time I buy from the swap shop.

The difference is that those swap shop purchases are random people selling a kit or two that they've bought legally in the past and don't want anymore. They can afford to sell below retail price because they aren't trying to run a business and make a profit, they just want to get some cash for that kit that's been collecting dust for the past year. That's entirely different from a business selling an inventory of kits, since they need to make a profit. And since you can't make a profit selling legal FW kits below retail price anyone offering a constant supply of a kit at $20 off retail is selling recasts.

I am an ethics major and I don't have a conscience, though I wouldn't buy recasts as I like to be able to build armies that I can sell if I don't like them, and trading in illegal models would be bad for my reputation.

Well then it depends on your ethics. But it's a pretty sad comment on the state of your university if they've taught you an ethical system that approves of buying illegal recasts, or if the only reason you can think of not to buy them is that it will hurt your reputation.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not about using things you didn't buy from a store, it's about promoting the idea that it's ok to buy and use illegal recasts. A store has (or should have) a strong interest in preventing people from using recasts or thinking that recasts are acceptable, since the recasters are perfectly happy to sell you recasts of GW plastic kits along with those FW kits. That's not at all the same as allowing you to use a legal kit that you bought from a different store, since at least you're still buying legally and giving an honest store the sales.

GW gives independent stores the shaft often enough, I can see a lot of them adopting a "don't ask don't tell" policy on the matter to stick one to the man. Given they can't sell FW products (the lions share of copies), and the usage of online discounters, I can't see some limited usage of copies having much of an impact on the stores. If anything, it's probably like music piracy - studies have shown that people who download music buy 30% more than those who don't. More players playing more and cooler models in your store increases the likelihood they and others get into the hobby, come to your store to play and buy things or pay to rent tables and rooms. Some of those nice, crisp, hard plastic basilisks you just saw on the shelf might go nicely with those 100 DKK you just picked up from China. And with the savings by not buying from FW, you can afford to get 3 of them! Much better than getting hard to assemble, soft and fragile resin basilisks that have a much smaller discount over their legitimate brothers compared to DKK.

 Yonan wrote:
Given they can't sell FW products (the lions share of copies)

Plastic kits are also recast. Spend a few minutes on the Chinese "ebay" and you'll find recasts of all the new releases.

If anything, it's probably like music piracy - studies have shown that people who download music buy 30% more than those who don't.

But that's not really the same thing. With music piracy it's probably about discovering new music and deciding to buy it, but with recasts the most likely buyers are people who are already established in the hobby and just doing it to save money.

More players playing more and cooler models in your store increases the likelihood they and others get into the hobby, come to your store to play and buy things or pay to rent tables and rooms.

Until your recast buyer tells them all about how wonderful recasts are and costs you sales.

Some of those nice, crisp, hard plastic basilisks you just saw on the shelf might go nicely with those 100 DKK you just picked up from China.

You mean those nice recast Basilisks?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Actually the models are $81 including shipping, just checked.

Then you are buying recasts. The models sell for £53 (link), which is $84 at current exchange rates. $81 is less than retail price, so anyone selling them for that price is losing at least $3 on every sale. And that's not even considering shipping costs.

TL,DR: there is no debate here, the models you are considering are recasts.

I don't agree with your logic on "saving $20, therefore buying illegal recasts," since I save much more than $20 (or %25) every time I buy from the swap shop.

The difference is that those swap shop purchases are random people selling a kit or two that they've bought legally in the past and don't want anymore. They can afford to sell below retail price because they aren't trying to run a business and make a profit, they just want to get some cash for that kit that's been collecting dust for the past year. That's entirely different from a business selling an inventory of kits, since they need to make a profit. And since you can't make a profit selling legal FW kits below retail price anyone offering a constant supply of a kit at $20 off retail is selling recasts.

I am an ethics major and I don't have a conscience, though I wouldn't buy recasts as I like to be able to build armies that I can sell if I don't like them, and trading in illegal models would be bad for my reputation.

Well then it depends on your ethics. But it's a pretty sad comment on the state of your university if they've taught you an ethical system that approves of buying illegal recasts, or if the only reason you can think of not to buy them is that it will hurt your reputation.

You are correct on the price, when I said $81 I converted Euros to usd, not pound to usd. It comes out to $95 usd from forgeworld, not $81.

More importantly, universities that teach philosophy courses such as ethics don't indoctrinate you with ethical systems. They teach you a variety of different ethical standpoints such as Bentham's Utilitariansim (Mills revised this and by doing so botched it), Kantianism (Emanuel Kant), and Nietzsche's views. After quite a few years of reflecting on all of these, I have come to the conclusion that all systems, not just ethical, are a flawed human viewpoint that is just a human brain trying to make sense of so much stimuli. A chair doesn't really exist,nor does a car, in the same way that good or bad doesn't exist. All of these things are just the brains of way categorization, otherwise we wouldn't function. What is really happening is a computed interaction of energy and mass, nothing more. However we are all bound by the fact that we are human and thus see reality in the system the majority of us interact with, therefore it is beneficial to each of us to act as if a char is really a chair, a car is really a car, and good and bad (pleasure and pain according to Utilitariansim/truthfullness and lies according to parts of Kantianism/ and nothing according to Nietzsche) exist as we perceive them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Given they can't sell FW products (the lions share of copies)

Plastic kits are also recast. Spend a few minutes on the Chinese "ebay" and you'll find recasts of all the new releases.

I said as much in my post. The "lions share" of recasts are FW - the rest being GW was implied, then mentioning recast basilisks being worse value lower down.

If anything, it's probably like music piracy - studies have shown that people who download music buy 30% more than those who don't.

But that's not really the same thing. With music piracy it's probably about discovering new music and deciding to buy it, but with recasts the most likely buyers are people who are already established in the hobby and just doing it to save money.

It's similar enough to be a relevant comparison. No studies have been done on it of course since it's a much smaller industry. Those "established" players you refer to no doubt play regularly, pay for tables, paints, other games and incidemental GW models they need from that hobby shop. Many players have exited the hobby, or at least stopped buying new models due to price increases. Keeping them in the hobby is a *very* good thing for those local shops, even if some of those sales are copies.

More players playing more and cooler models in your store increases the likelihood they and others get into the hobby, come to your store to play and buy things or pay to rent tables and rooms.

Until your recast buyer tells them all about how wonderful recasts are and costs you sales.

Do you advise new players to buy a 100 model DKK army, or get dark vengeance or a battalion box? The DKK army is arguably better to get as copies due to paying 30% of the price and getting the same material. DV and battalion boxes are not - go compare the prices on taobao, the savings (if any) are much lower, not to mention instead of getting plastic you're getting resin - an inferior material. Also no instructions, a very bad introduction to the hobby.

Some of those nice, crisp, hard plastic basilisks you just saw on the shelf might go nicely with those 100 DKK you just picked up from China.

You mean those nice recast Basilisks?

 Peregrine wrote:


Well then it depends on your ethics. But it's a pretty sad comment on the state of your university if they've taught you an ethical system that approves of buying illegal recasts, or if the only reason you can think of not to buy them is that it will hurt your reputation.

Please stop posting in my forum. I asked you nicely in a PM I sent some time ago to abstain from being offensive, as you have not replied to my private message nor have you stopped being offensive, I ask kindly that you please stop posting in forums which I create.

As you have failed to reply to my private message and continued to be rude, the only explanation I see for such a distinguished member of the community as yourself is that you simply didn't see that I sent you it, so here it is:

"Peregrine,

I recently made a post asking the Dakka community to identify whether or not a particular picture was of fake Death Korps of Kreig miniatures. In it, you stated (and I am quoting) "Sorry, but if you're asking "how can I play with stolen property in a store that depends on legal purchases to stay in business" then you deserve a lecture." I don't appreciate the fact that you are insinuating that I am asking how to play with stolen property or the fact that I made that thread with ANY OTHER intention than to identify if whether or not the miniatures were real, how to spot fakes, and how to deal with fakes when people try to play with them. If I wan't to buy and play with fake minis I wouln't be asking if those minis were fake, I would have purchased them and not asked questions. I do however appreciate the useful information you gave in my thread and would ask if you have any other useful information concerning the topic and you would be so gracious enough to do so, to post it in the thread, however I ask you only do so while abstaining from being offensive.

From the desk of,
-Ryan_A "

Edited for spelling.

If you feel someone is being rude, then hit the yellow triangle to alert a mod and they will decide if someone is being rude or not. Unfortunately, you don't get to police who can and can't post in threads you create. If you don't like someone's views or opinions, then put them on ignore and move on.

 filbert wrote:
If you feel someone is being rude, then hit the yellow triangle to alert a mod and they will decide if someone is being rude or not. Unfortunately, you don't get to police who can and can't post in threads you create. If you don't like someone's views or opinions, then put them on ignore and move on.

Thanks I will do that. I know I cannot police who posts in forums I create, but I feel if I ask nicely, that such a mature and ethical person (as peregrine) would gladly oblige in not posting in forums which I create. Thank you again for reminding me if the yellow alert triangle.

Edited for clarity

There I was having a discussion with him : (

 Yonan wrote:
There I was having a discussion with him : (

Sorry, as the moderator said I have no power over what he does, I just prefer that he no longer post in threads I have created. If you still want to help, I am still wondering if the Gorgon Transport DKoK are the same size as their regular counterparts, or if they are smaller, by how much.

Guy, they're recasts. No amount of denial is going to change that.

I've not seen anyone claim them to be any larger or smaller than their regular counterparts, other than taking up less space by virtue of being in an at-ease pose. The greenstuffing you'll inevitably have to do will add a little bit to that, though.

Ryan, I think you were being very reasonable and adult about all this, it's a shame when people don't respond in kind. More on topic, they are the same size as your standard DKoK guardsman. Here's the link again for the tutorial on splitting them into separate soldiers http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58799

Scroll to the end of the tutorial and you can see the finished, separate guardsman next to a DKoK Commissar. Looks good to me.

Cheers

 SweaterKittens wrote:
Ryan, I think you were being very reasonable and adult about all this, it's a shame when people don't respond in kind. More on topic, they are the same size as your standard DKoK guardsman. Here's the link again for the tutorial on splitting them into separate soldiers http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58799

Scroll to the end of the tutorial and you can see the finished, separate guardsman next to a DKoK Commissar. Looks good to me.

Cheers

Thank you for the compliment. Thank you again for the information about size, I will definitely save up for some FW models (whether or not I buy from FW will be determined by any deals I find), but thank you for the information and link about the size, I greatly appreciate it!

There was an identical thread to this one a year ago I think.

Basically people buy them and cut them apart for a cheep army. They look pretty bad when you do that though, since only the fronts are modeled and some are missing arms and things.