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 evildrcheese wrote:
The current digi dex is all about the MM though.

Agreed.

Do the new wound allocation rules make it sensible to give regular Battle Sister squads one meltagun and one heavy flamer, though, rather than flamer/heavy flamer?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Do the new wound allocation rules make it sensible to give regular Battle Sister squads one meltagun and one heavy flamer, though, rather than flamer/heavy flamer?

Melta/HF was always a good option and continues to be. You get to fire all templates at the same time, so it isn't a big deal to fire two different templates right now though.

But I wouldn't be surprised if an FAQ came out to state template weapons with different names must be resolved separately, so there's be no harm in switching to Melta/HF to be ahead of the curve. This is probably what I'll be doing, especially since vehicles in general got more resilient, so more S8, ap1 shots probably aren't going to go to waste...

Saying that I might start taking combi-flamers on my superiors again if I'm switching the special to the Melta.

D

It's all a bit on how you interpret the Template rules too.

I prefer F/M or HF/M, just for the opportunities the melta offers.

 pretre wrote:

Voldrak wrote:
2500 points. I want to play a fluffy close combat oriented list since my order is the Bloody Rose and they are known for it. I want to keep it semi-competitive.

I am good with Sisters and Inquisition codex.

Looking for ideas.

My meta right now is mostly:

Daemons and all their 7th ed shenanigans
Chaos space marines
Tau
Space Marines
Imperial guards.

2 Psy-Crusaders filled with DCA/Crus/Priests
1 Inquisitors grenade caddy with Liber
Coteaz
3 Dominions
2 Exorcists
1 Retributor with HB in a Bastion or Firestorm Redoubt
Fill the rest with SOB squads (5 with HF/F in Rhino)

I don't think that's really a "close combat oriented list" though...

It's a good list, rather competitive, but i'd swap some stuff out.
2 Exorcists
1 Retributor with HB in a Bastion or Firestorm Redoubt

with

1 more Psy-Crusader with Repentia and priest/inquisitor
Penitent engines

With 3 LR the penitents have a better chance (Target priority / use them as support)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Do the new wound allocation rules make it sensible to give regular Battle Sister squads one meltagun and one heavy flamer, though, rather than flamer/heavy flamer?

Melta/HF was always a good option and continues to be. You get to fire all templates at the same time, so it isn't a big deal to fire two different templates right now though.

I though it was choose a weapon type though?

So bolters first, then heavy bolters.
Which would mean Flamer and Heavy Flamer separately, no?

I read that section as that if you have multiples of the same type of Template weapon (i.e. Flamers) then you fire them all at the same time.

Because the shooting rules demand that you declarare which uniquely named weapon you are firing.

 Shandara wrote:
I read that section as that if you have multiples of the same type of Template weapon (i.e. Flamers) then you fire them all at the same time.

Because the shooting rules demand that you declarare which uniquely named weapon you are firing.

It says "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time..."

Once the number of hits is determined from that template weapon type then you roll to wound.

Am I missing something (entirely possible!) or is this pretty logical and straightforward?

I'm talking about the very first page of the shooting phase, and "choosing a weapon type" i think it is.

I will need to verify when i get back, but i'm sure it's not just "all assault weapons" or "All Bolters" - "all flamers"

 Captain Blood wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
I read that section as that if you have multiples of the same type of Template weapon (i.e. Flamers) then you fire them all at the same time.

Because the shooting rules demand that you declarare which uniquely named weapon you are firing.

It says "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time..."

Once the number of hits is determined from that template weapon type then you roll to wound.

Am I missing something (entirely possible!) or is this pretty logical and straightforward?

As the previous poster said, the shooting rules require:
1) choose a unique weapon name
2) fire all of them
3) repeat

The Template rules merely state that if you are firing more than one template weapon at the same time (say you are firing 3 standard Flamers) that you resolve them at the same time. I don't read it as permission to ignore the shooting requirement. But that's for YMDCC, I think.

 Shandara wrote:

1) choose a unique weapon name

That's what i thought, so HF and Flamer would be done separately... Now because we're in Tactics, what would you recommend?

I'd say start with Flamer, then HF, because the lower chance of killing would go 1st, and leave targets for the second (assuming both at the same distance, same coverage, etc)

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

1) choose a unique weapon name

That's what i thought, so HF and Flamer would be done separately... Now because we're in Tactics, what would you recommend?

I'd say start with Flamer, then HF, because the lower chance of killing would go 1st, and leave targets for the second (assuming both at the same distance, same coverage, etc)

I wouldn't take F/HF. I'd take melta/Hf and a combo flamer on the superior, which I would save for overwatch.

D

 Shandara wrote:

 Captain Blood wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
I read that section as that if you have multiples of the same type of Template weapon (i.e. Flamers) then you fire them all at the same time.

Because the shooting rules demand that you declarare which uniquely named weapon you are firing.

It says "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time..."

Once the number of hits is determined from that template weapon type then you roll to wound.

Am I missing something (entirely possible!) or is this pretty logical and straightforward?

As the previous poster said, the shooting rules require:
1) choose a unique weapon name
2) fire all of them
3) repeat

The Template rules merely state that if you are firing more than one template weapon at the same time (say you are firing 3 standard Flamers) that you resolve them at the same time. I don't read it as permission to ignore the shooting requirement. But that's for YMDCC, I think.

It's all rather wonky, really. If the template weapons go separately, why bother mentioning it in the template rules since that is obviously how it works with shooting rules alone. All weapons with the same name fire at the same time, count hits, roll wounds, etc.

In the Template section, it says all template weapons fire at once. Going with the old specific rules trump general rules, does this mean template weapons go at the same time no matter what their name? If so, why didn't they mention that this is an exception? Do rules later in the book trump those up front? Honestly I could not even guess what RAI or RAW is supposed to be. I plan to err on the side of caution and go with separately with heavy and normal until I hear otherwise.

On the math side, against marines 2 flamers fired at the same time are still slightly under a HvyFlamer/flamer set up that fires separately. I think the extra AP on one template is worth it for me. In the end the differences between mixed or same firing separately or simultaneously are too small to matter.

Dominoris wrote:
It's all rather wonky, really. If the template weapons go separately, why bother mentioning it in the template rules since that is obviously how it works with shooting rules alone. All weapons with the same name fire at the same time, count hits, roll wounds, etc.

In the Template section, it says all template weapons fire at once. Going with the old specific rules trump general rules, does this mean template weapons go at the same time no matter what their name? If so, why didn't they mention that this is an exception? Do rules later in the book trump those up front? Honestly I could not even guess what RAI or RAW is supposed to be. I plan to err on the side of caution and go with separately with heavy and normal until I hear otherwise.

On the math side, against marines 2 flamers fired at the same time are still slightly under a HvyFlamer/flamer set up that fires separately. I think the extra AP on one template is worth it for me. In the end the differences between mixed or same firing separately or simultaneously are too small to matter.

My best answer to this is: the ork flamer squad. They can have 10 flamers in a 10-man squad. I'm pretty sure that that is the best example of "all templates" =p

So for Sisters, what is the best Anti-Air option with all the new things 7th edition opend up? Is Aegis with Quad and a HB Retributor Squad sitting on the line still the best option?

If one were to want to stay kind of fluffy and choose between AM, GKnights, or Inquisition what would be the best option for each faction for anti air if you wanted to maximize the sisters you could field.?

Thanks in Advance.

I think the best anti-air option we have now is ignoring the flyer and hoping it doesn't do too much damage.

 Shandara wrote:

 Captain Blood wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
I read that section as that if you have multiples of the same type of Template weapon (i.e. Flamers) then you fire them all at the same time.

Because the shooting rules demand that you declarare which uniquely named weapon you are firing.

It says "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time..."

Once the number of hits is determined from that template weapon type then you roll to wound.

Am I missing something (entirely possible!) or is this pretty logical and straightforward?

As the previous poster said, the shooting rules require:
1) choose a unique weapon name
2) fire all of them
3) repeat

The Template rules merely state that if you are firing more than one template weapon at the same time (say you are firing 3 standard Flamers) that you resolve them at the same time. I don't read it as permission to ignore the shooting requirement. But that's for YMDCC, I think.

Eh, I see it the other way. Special Rules override General Rules. Otherwise how would something like Gunslinger, for example, ever work? The general rule for shooting says a model can only fire one weapon in the shooting phase. Gunslinger lets a model fire two pistol weapons. Therefore the Gunslinger special rule overrides the General Shooting rule of only being able to fire one weapon.

I see it the same way for Templates. The General Rule for Shooting is now resolve one weapon type fully at a time. The Template Special Rule overrides this by allowing you to fire all Template Weapons at once. Flamers and Heavy Flamers are both Template weapons, and therefore are fired at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fixed2bbroken wrote:
So for Sisters, what is the best Anti-Air option with all the new things 7th edition opend up? Is Aegis with Quad and a HB Retributor Squad sitting on the line still the best option?

If one were to want to stay kind of fluffy and choose between AM, GKnights, or Inquisition what would be the best option for each faction for anti air if you wanted to maximize the sisters you could field.?

Thanks in Advance.

The Avenger Strike Fighter is still the best 'pure' Sisters option (assuming you can do Forgeworld). Otherwise take an Allied Detachment of Astra Militarum with a Fast Attack Vendetta - since Battle Brothers can now ride in other factions transports, stick a Dominion Squad with 4 Meltas in it and outflank. That's 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons on the Vendetta, which can drop off a 4 Melta Squad of Dominions. Solid Anti-Air in the Vendetta (also give it the Heavy Bolter sponsons) which also has the benefit of being a very nasty Anti-Tank option. You'll also have the benefit of making Imperial Guard players jealous, since the nerf to the Vendetta's transport size really limited their options. Sisters having 5 woman squads are perfect though

You will need to pay the 'tax' of either a CCS or Lord Commissar plus Veterans, but thats not entirely bad. You can give them a Chimera so they keep up with the Sisters in Immos or Rhinos (plus Vets can take Plasma which is nice) or you could give them a Lascannon or Autocannon so they can hang back and plink things.

Eh, I see it the other way. Special Rules override General Rules. Otherwise how would something like Gunslinger, for example, ever work? The general rule for shooting says a model can only fire one weapon in the shooting phase. Gunslinger lets a model fire two pistol weapons. Therefore the Gunslinger special rule overrides the General Shooting rule of only being able to fire one weapon.

I see it the same way for Templates. The General Rule for Shooting is now resolve one weapon type fully at a time. The Template Special Rule overrides this by allowing you to fire all Template Weapons at once. Flamers and Heavy Flamers are both Template weapons, and therefore are fired at the same time.

But I think some of us don't see a conflict here that needs an override. "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template" never gets triggered if your template weapons have different names because you are not firing more than one shot (this part would apply if you took 4 flamer doms, they would all fire at the same time).

I know BB allows you to embark on allied transports now, but is there any restrictions to them starting in the transports in reserve or can you only board 'in game'?

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
I know BB allows you to embark on allied transports now, but is there any restrictions to them starting in the transports in reserve or can you only board 'in game'?

D

Only P82 and dedicated Transports rules has restrictions on who's inside. Any standard slot transport (Land Raider, Valkyrie, etc) if free to carry what you want.

I read up on the Vendetta and although it seems sweet its a huge investment (both points and $) especially with the required hq choice. Are there any other options?

Not good ones. The Aegis line is pretty nerfed with the AP4 gun not being able to explode flyers and not being able to fire normally at the ground.

There's always the Icarus for the defence line, higher strength and ap2 but only one shot...you could have a naked canoness man it for BS5 to make it a bit more reliable. Or Celestine at BS7 (although I think most of us agree that'd be a waste of a saint.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
There's always the Icarus for the defence line, higher strength and ap2 but only one shot...you could have a naked canoness man it for BS5 to make it a bit more reliable. Or Celestine at BS7 (although I think most of us agree that'd be a waste of a saint.

D

I have never had good luck with the lascannon, even when the Canoness is firing.

It is a good idea, though. You could in theory do the same thing with Cypher, but I have more fun having him outflank with Death Cult Assassins.

Which, while entertaining, is pretty pointless. Freaks the MEQ players out though .

The quad gun was pretty much essential in 6th Ed IMO - not sure about 7th as its no longer as good and also there are now more Ally alternatives............

Best AA choices for the Sisters army are definitely the Avenger and just redirecting your many, many twin-linked multimeltas.

For a CC Sisters army, I'd build it around a core of Priests + Sororitas Command Squad.

An army list something like;

+++ New Roster (1500pts) +++
+++ 1500pt Sisters of Battle (eCodex) Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++

Selections:

Sisters of Battle (eCodex) (Primary Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +
Canoness (Inferno Pistol, Power Weapon, Rosarius, Mantle of Ophelia)
Sororitas Command Squad (Hospitaller, Sacred Banner of the Orders Militant, 3x Power Weapon, 3 Priests, Rhino (Storm Bolter, Dozer Blade))
Uriah Jacobus (3 Crusaders, 7 Death Cultists, Priest)
5 Priests (Bolt Pistol, Power Maul, attached to squads as described)

+ Troops +
5 Battle Sisters (Flamer, MM Immolator)
5 Battle Sisters (Flamer, MM Immolator)

+ Fast Attack +
10 Dominions (4 Meltaguns, Power Weapon, MM Immolator, Priest)

+ Heavy Support +
Penitent Engine

Why Dominions rather than Celestians? They're more widely useful, and with the addition of a Priest and and standing in range of the Sacred Standard, they only miss out on the +1 Strength 1/game.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

+ Fast Attack +
10 Dominions (4 Meltaguns, Power Weapon, MM Immolator, Priest)

I would drop the priest, 5 sisters and the power weapon.

Instead take 2 plasma pistols on the Vet. Spare points and a unit that knows what it's doing :p

Spend the points on making the other units better at CC than this one which would be mediocre at best (survivable, maybe?)

Bastion is still a good choice with Quadgun. Put Rets inside and they can fire 1-2 extra HB and the Quad-gun. Rending quad is still good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Best AA choices for the Sisters army are definitely the Avenger and just redirecting your many, many twin-linked multimeltas.

For a CC Sisters army, I'd build it around a core of Priests + Sororitas Command Squad.

An army list something like;

+++ New Roster (1500pts) +++
+++ 1500pt Sisters of Battle (eCodex) Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++

Selections:

Sisters of Battle (eCodex) (Primary Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +
Canoness (Inferno Pistol, Power Weapon, Rosarius, Mantle of Ophelia)
Sororitas Command Squad (Hospitaller, Sacred Banner of the Orders Militant, 3x Power Weapon, 3 Priests, Rhino (Storm Bolter, Dozer Blade))
Uriah Jacobus (3 Crusaders, 7 Death Cultists, Priest)
5 Priests (Bolt Pistol, Power Maul, attached to squads as described)

+ Troops +
5 Battle Sisters (Flamer, MM Immolator)
5 Battle Sisters (Flamer, MM Immolator)

+ Fast Attack +
10 Dominions (4 Meltaguns, Power Weapon, MM Immolator, Priest)

+ Heavy Support +
Penitent Engine

Why Dominions rather than Celestians? They're more widely useful, and with the addition of a Priest and and standing in range of the Sacred Standard, they only miss out on the +1 Strength 1/game.

I mean, you can do it, but it is not very good. Yuck. I look at this list and try to figure out where the rest of your points are.

Would it be considered a waste of points to put a priest in a min squad of sisters (5 sisters, F/HF, in a MM Immolator) just to take advantage of the zealot rules from the priest? I like the idea that if the min squad gets a little shot up they won't turn and run or would the pts be better spent somewhere else?

Points probably better spent elsewhere. Consider the odds of the squad being shot up enough to break, but not so much that they're pointless to save, and that they actually fail the check. You'd be better off saving the priests' points and buying another squad.