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TiamatRoar wrote:

 Zed wrote:
It saves them from trying to balance them for use on the tabletop.

Not having any rules means that they can be hyperbolised to no end, which makes the fluff awesome.

But we have table top rules for them now (Horus Heresy series from Forgeworld)

Hell, Daemon Angron's had table top rules for a friggin' long time (he got rules with the 1st Armegeddon war campaign)

Wow, there are too. I stand mistaken.

I think you people are confusing "setting advances" with "The Imperium must die". The setting can advance and change without the Imperium dying or ceasing to function or whatever else, you know.

TiamatRoar wrote:Dark Angels codex confirmed that the Lion will return once the Emperor gives the word.

I'd hardly call myths and propaganda a "confirmation". The fluff (fortunately) doesn't work that way.

The codex explicitly states only the Emperor and the watchers know this in the first place. So WHO'S myth and propaganda are you referring to? How can it be an in-universe myth or in-universe propaganda if only the Emperor is aware of it in the first place? If the Narrator is meant to be some sort of in-universe propagandist, orator, or story-teller, how can the narrator even begin to tell you this if this is something that the narrative explicitly states only the Emperor knows about? What, you think this is some fable the watchers whisper to each other while sitting around a camp fire or something?

Next you'll tell me Farsight's sword siphoning the life of whoever it kills is also a myth when the codex explicitly states that Farsight is NOT aware of the fact (so who's propagandizing such a thing?)

 Sir Arun wrote:
...but GW went "feth it, let's just make these guys disappear so that no loyalist legions/chapters can have Primarchs leading them anymore". It kinda annoys me a lot, so what do you think?

Just FYI, this isn't a new thing. It's the way it's been for as long as the Primarchs have been in the fluff...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Plus I doubt the Tyranids and Necrons were in the fluff from day one of Rogue Trader itself.

Neither was the Horus Heresy...

Maybe the huge chunks of metal that a design studio Primach would have been was too much of a health hazard.

TiamatRoar wrote:The codex explicitly states only the Emperor and the watchers know this in the first place. So WHO'S myth and propaganda are you referring to? How can it be an in-universe myth or in-universe propaganda if only the Emperor is aware of it in the first place? If the Narrator is meant to be some sort of in-universe propagandist, orator, or story-teller, how can the narrator even begin to tell you this if this is something that the narrative explicitly states only the Emperor knows about? What, you think this is some fable the watchers whisper to each other while sitting around a camp fire or something?

Have you never had a storyteller confront you with a tale that included such an aspect? There must be thousands of horror stories that have the narrator use a line like "only X knows".
Furthermore, the line you are referring to concerns Jonsons resting place, not his resurrection. That being said, ironically you are quite close with your proposition that it would be a "fable the watchers whisper to each other", given that this would be the only way to avoid the self-contradiction in the text, seeing as it claims only the Emperor knows, and no-one else, Watchers included...

Anyways, that the Primarchs would "arise again in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle" has long since been one of the major myths in the background - and one that the 6E Rulebook claims is "insisted by many" on page 186.
(this is also the page that calls into question many of the Primarchs' supposed feats, by the way).

Just about every Codex offers some sort of secret - that doesn't make it any more reliable, especially once you start noticing the little contradictions between the books that ultimately should throw into question the reliability of the narrator. That's just how the fluff works, and it is up to you alone how you wish to interpret and what to make out of it.

"Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne


[edit] To clarify - perhaps it would, in some cases, be wrong to say it is "in-universe propaganda" or even an "in-universe legend", but that does not necessarily make it fact. In my experience, it is best to regard the narrator like a storyteller that tells a tale on the campfire, with all the strings attached. That it's not an in-universe person should be clear from the contents, so technically the narrator should be omniscient ... yet as we have seen from the various contradictions, as well as the narrator sometimes intentionally calling into question their own reliability (see the aforementioned page 186 in the rulebook for an example), this isn't the case.

It has confused me, too, for a very long time.

then why do eldar get the PL :( I call more eldar cheese and trickery!

 raiden wrote:
then why do eldar get the PL :( I call more eldar cheese and trickery!

Because a Pheonix Lord is more a akin to an Imperial Assassin then a Primarch Demon or otherwise.

As for the Primarchs that are confirmed 100% dead i think its only four, Horus/Cruze and Sanginious/Ferrus, why these four I'd be interested to know from an OOP view. The remained have long stay in the back not really doing anything else, but with the latest Forgeworld releases that might change in the future. I myself wished they would detail more of the lesser known ones, though I do believe this happened recently with Vulkan. Okay then now why don't you guys do something for say Omegon?

 arinnoor wrote:

 raiden wrote:
then why do eldar get the PL :( I call more eldar cheese and trickery!

Because a Pheonix Lord is more a akin to an Imperial Assassin then a Primarch Demon or otherwise.

As for the Primarchs that are confirmed 100% dead i think its only four, Horus/Cruze and Sanginious/Ferrus, why these four I'd be interested to know from an OOP view.

Sanguinius was too noble. The possibility of the greatest hero humanity could possibly have coming back would make it less grimdark. Horus had to die for the Heresy to end. Curze was too insane and making the Night Lords cynical mercenaries wouldn't work if there primarch was still alive. And Ferrous was too boring. And going back to my point on Sanguinius, there are two primarchs who are actually likely to come back. Leman Russ, a violent killer who couldn't rule anything. And Lion El'Jonson, the cold, ruthless tactician who doesn't know how to deal with people. Not the charismatic heroes (Sanguinius and Vulkan) or even the expert strategists who could actually run the Imperium ( Guilliman and Dorn. Because that would ruin the grimdark.

There would be no point in having them return because even if they did they wouldn't be able to effect any real change in the giant winding evil corporate machine known as the IoM.

 arinnoor wrote:

 raiden wrote:
then why do eldar get the PL :( I call more eldar cheese and trickery!

Because a Pheonix Lord is more a akin to an Imperial Assassin then a Primarch Demon or otherwise.

As for the Primarchs that are confirmed 100% dead i think its only four, Horus/Cruze and Sanginious/Ferrus, why these four I'd be interested to know from an OOP view. The remained have long stay in the back not really doing anything else, but with the latest Forgeworld releases that might change in the future. I myself wished they would detail more of the lesser known ones, though I do believe this happened recently with Vulkan. Okay then now why don't you guys do something for say Omegon?

That's pretty incorrect. Maybe on the Tabletop, but fluffwise the PL are easily on Primarch level, if not above it.

 Sasori wrote:

That's pretty incorrect. Maybe on the Tabletop, but fluffwise the PL are easily on Primarch level, if not above it.

Based on what, exactly?

You get the occasional vague Maugan Ra statement, but nothing quantifiable or solid.

We do know that Asurmen has been bested in single combat by N'kari, a Keeper of Secrets. But then another Phoenix Lord managed to kill N'kari in his rage. So we have a 1:1 ratio against a Greater Daemon for a Phoenix Lord's prowess. Ka'Bhanda bested Sanguinius in their first bout, but Sanguinius went on to defeat Ka'Bhanda twice, and Kyriss (KoS) once. Lion El'Jonson banished Fateweaver in single combat. Lorgar felled An'ggrath the Unbound. Magnus has destroyed Tiitans, as have Fulgrim (Who destroyed an Avatar of Khaine) and the aforementioned Lorgar.

On the PL to Primarch front, I always think of PL's closer to well known chapter masters, with resurrection. Primarchs were a level up. Empy/Big Four > Primarch > PL/CM > SM > Eldar > Human

On topic; I don't know how 30k is working out for FW. I imagine if 30k would take off, and GW would see a financial opportunity, Guilliman and/or the Lion would have a model quick like, and a supplement, and a new terrain piece.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

That's pretty incorrect. Maybe on the Tabletop, but fluffwise the PL are easily on Primarch level, if not above it.

Based on what, exactly?

You get the occasional vague Maugan Ra statement, but nothing quantifiable or solid.

We do know that Asurmen has been bested in single combat by N'kari, a Keeper of Secrets. But then another Phoenix Lord managed to kill N'kari in his rage. So we have a 1:1 ratio against a Greater Daemon for a Phoenix Lord's prowess. Ka'Bhanda bested Sanguinius in their first bout, but Sanguinius went on to defeat Ka'Bhanda twice, and Kyriss (KoS) once. Lion El'Jonson banished Fateweaver in single combat. Lorgar felled An'ggrath the Unbound. Magnus has destroyed Tiitans, as have Fulgrim (Who destroyed an Avatar of Khaine) and the aforementioned Lorgar.

I don't know, I would think Maugen Ra venturing into the EoT, and pulling out his craftworld single handily, puts him on Primarch level. You have Fuegan who was said to have scored "Dozens of Demon Lords" during a single battle.

While not many examples, there is significantly more fluff on the aforementioned primarchs, than the Pls. However, I think what feats have been shown puts them quite close, if not equal to Primarch range.

This is quite off topic though, so I suggest starting a new thread if you really feel the need to debate it, as you'll get more responces than just mine.

.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Chaos Legions have theirs, although those that are, are all horribly mutated and rulers of daemon worlds and not really interested in leading armies anymore.

Still, I feel that Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Manus and Khan can remain dead and the Lion can remain asleep, but the rest (Corax, Vulkan and Russ) would have very much had the chance to be alive, but GW went "feth it, let's just make these guys disappear so that no loyalist legions/chapters can have Primarchs leading them anymore". It kinda annoys me a lot, so what do you think?

Because 40K was invented without primarchs. They are later addition, a bit of background flavour added to explain why there are "evil" space marines and "good" space marines.

They could've made up a different back-story, but that's the one they made. But having them "In" the actual setting kinda puts the cart before the horse.

Because given how far the Imperium has deviated from the Emperor's stated vision (whether that statement was bs or not), having someone around who was an eye witness to the whole mess would make things very awkward for the powers that be. Especially if they have the influence of a Primarch.

Or more likely, it adds to the whole "hopelessness" of the setting. There is no golden hero to save us, and the Space Marines are arrogant genetic monstrosities who do harm as or more often than good.

That said, the Lion is alive and well, and Guilliman could well be also.

What millenia did the last loyalist Primarch go amiss anyway? Does someone have the timeline?

About the primarchs not coming back, I think it is because they know it would kill the setting.

This "escalation" things are cool for a while, but quickly degenerates into a race. If a primarch returns, then another will follow, and then another, and then the setting will advance and the "darkest hour of mankind" will end, one way or another.

The game as we know would be finished. They could do a sequel a thousand years in the future but it would not be the same.

About the loyalist primarchs not being alive....
Loyalist primarchs that can suddenly appear from wherever they are: Khan, Corax, Russ, Dorn since 6th edition
Loyalist primarchs known to be still alive who can awake (or be found) at any moment: Guilliman, Vulcan, Lion
Loyalist primarchs dead: Sanguinius and Ferrus. Dorn in previous editions.

Traitor primarchs dead: Horus, Curze. Perhaps Alpharius or Omegon.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:
What millenia did the last loyalist Primarch go amiss anyway? Does someone have the timeline?

I am searching for a more specific quote but I am unable to find one. This is what I have:

Index Astartes II: The last one was Dorn. It happened "soon after the disappearance of Corax".
Index Astartes IV: Corax disappeared one year after locking himself, "following the break-up of the legions".

So it is in the 31st millennium, right after the Second Foundation. I think it is 781 M31, during the first Black Crusade.


Confirmed: 781 M31 first Black Crusade. Index Astartes II, somehow I missed it the first time I searched.

Well as many people said you know it is grimdark and even then the chaos primachs are not doing much either apart from angron, whenever he pops up.

TiamatRoar wrote:


Tyranids were advancing too. Leviathan and the "Oh gak, they can outflank the GALAXY?" thing didn't come up until 4th Edition.

I always found it funny that the Imperium was surprised by that. Did they forget space is 3 dimensional?

The reason the primarchs are gone- or were gone depending on when you're setting your game- is that they were part of the myth. The Imperium is a remnant, a tattered, countless generations removed twisted descendant of a golden age of humanity where gods walked among men. They have no place in the current setting. Nor for that matter, should the Imperiums past be too thoroughly examined in my opinion, as knowing destroys the wonder and mystery. Part of the dystopia is how they have fallen so far and any primarch showing up now would be disgusted by what the Imperium has become.

At least that's the old reasoning I'd wager. If it'd make GW enough cash they'd resurrect them in a heartbeat and do a new codes/model range for the two unnammed chapters.

Alpha 1 wrote:
The only Primachs that are confirmed dead are the Farhaus, Sanginius, and Dorn. The others have vanished or in the case of Gilliam he seems to be regenerating his wounds and may awake. I have heard rumors that when the golden throne fails it will mark the return of the Emporer and the Primachs both good and bad. But who knows what GW has planned.

P.S Sorry for the awful spelling

Wrong, Dorn isn't confirmed to be dead all they say is that he disappeared into a Chaos ship and they found a hand that they think belonged to him but no official confirmation

What more recent newcomers tot he hobby don't realize is that after the start of 2nd Edition, the Horus Heresy was supposed to be something that happened in the long long ago of forgotten history.

The primarchs all disappeared in 40K because they were supposed to be part of the muddled, ambiguous past.

Which probably why half of them have muddled, ambiguous fates, lol.

But they were never intended to be part of the "modern" 40K universe.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
What more recent newcomers tot he hobby don't realize is that after the start of 2nd Edition, the Horus Heresy was supposed to be something that happened in the long long ago of forgotten history.

The primarchs all disappeared in 40K because they were supposed to be part of the muddled, ambiguous past.

Which probably why half of them have muddled, ambiguous fates, lol.

But they were never intended to be part of the "modern" 40K universe.

^This. So much this.

Everything written about them was supposed to be legends, tales, propaganda and lies. As I slowly get fed up of HH books, I am coming to realize I liked it that way.

They don't need to bring them back. People who want to play with them can now do so through the FW rules and they would represent too big a step change in the grimdarkness of the background.

 da001 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
What more recent newcomers tot he hobby don't realize is that after the start of 2nd Edition, the Horus Heresy was supposed to be something that happened in the long long ago of forgotten history.

The primarchs all disappeared in 40K because they were supposed to be part of the muddled, ambiguous past.

Which probably why half of them have muddled, ambiguous fates, lol.

But they were never intended to be part of the "modern" 40K universe.

^This. So much this.

Everything written about them was supposed to be legends, tales, propaganda and lies. As I slowly get fed up of HH books, I am coming to realize I liked it that way.

Which is why I like them that way . That being said I'm fine with angron and the sorts stomping about mainly because they have fallen to insanity of slaughter and more daemon than man.

Angron is actually ironically one of Khorne's saner servants. In order to pull off the First War for Armegeddon, he actually put his broken legion back TOGETHER. That's something you don't see a khornate do very often.

 Lynata wrote:
There's no Primarchs around because that would de-mystify the legend. It seems a lot more fitting for a setting like this to feature various saviour-figures without actually having them around. Certainly, the Imperium still has its living heroes like Yarrick or Dante, but with a long-dead persona you can easily ascribe all sorts of amazing feats to their story without being contradicted by actual events, such as them being wounded or even killed in battle, or - worst case scenario - not even being killed in a heroic manner like a duel against a powerful enemy leader, but just being dropped by some basic troops. The alternative would be to actually make them as epic, invulnerable and amazing as some of their legends indicate, which (or so I think) would get boring quickly because you'd have a bunch of larger-than-life people stealing everyone's show and letting the actual armies or the "normal" heroes take a backseat.

No, I believe that letting them - and the Emperor, for that matter - remain things of legend is the smarter choice. It ultimately offers more room for interpretation, too, which allows every fan to pick the perspective they are more comfortable with.

My thoughts precisely, although I think the larger-than-life Space Marines already steal enough glory from their hard-pressed human comrades in the IG & IN. But that's another case.

Prior to the series of books the Horus Heresy was truly steeped in mystery, legend and half-truths. You had tales of all sorts of things going on, such as the tale of the venerable Ollanius Pius - did he actually exist in M31? Was he a propaganda tool for the Imperial Army, then changing to the Imperial Guard, to give it a patron Saint to unite behind? We just have a tale that the fight between Horus & the Emperor took place in the Imperial Palace on Terra and in some tales Pius does not exist. But there's another legend that states the fight was aboard the flagship of Horus and the role Pius played was actually performed by an Imperial Fist. Further to that there's a tale that it was a member of the Adeptus Custodes who sacrificed himself to grant the Emperor the vital seconds needed to defeat Horus, not an Imperial Army soldier or an Imperial Fist Astartes.

It's a case of picking and choosing what you want to take on as being true or false - there's no definite answer, no absolute right answer, just many questions that will never (hopefully) be actually answered. The Horus Heresy novels from the Black Library are merely interpretations of events and the people that might have been involved, not actual 'this is what happened'.

Just remember the key rule: It's a setting, not a storyline.

Remembering the way that the HH books have presented the primarchs, i hope that they all stay dead and burried. The setting already suffers from an abundance of would-be Sues, be it Space Marine companies who conquer entire planets on their own, Dark Eldar lords who fail to impress us with informed abilities (show, don't tell damnit!) or a number of other occurances where being "awesome" is stretched to the level of saturday morning cartoons. Imo the primarchs in their current form (i liked them when they were half forgotten myths) add nothing to the setting and are best kept out of it.

 Sasori wrote:

 arinnoor wrote:

 raiden wrote:
then why do eldar get the PL :( I call more eldar cheese and trickery!

Because a Pheonix Lord is more a akin to an Imperial Assassin then a Primarch Demon or otherwise.

As for the Primarchs that are confirmed 100% dead i think its only four, Horus/Cruze and Sanginious/Ferrus, why these four I'd be interested to know from an OOP view. The remained have long stay in the back not really doing anything else, but with the latest Forgeworld releases that might change in the future. I myself wished they would detail more of the lesser known ones, though I do believe this happened recently with Vulkan. Okay then now why don't you guys do something for say Omegon?

That's pretty incorrect. Maybe on the Tabletop, but fluffwise the PL are easily on Primarch level, if not above it.

in combat yes. but in combat named greater daemon and probably above even this level.

What the loyalist primarch have is their minds, their ability to plan, strategize, understand technology and practice the finer arts of diplomacy. They would mean more to the IoM sitting behind a desk than they could on the battlefield. A phoenix lord adds very little to a craftworld. They have faseers to look into the future, plan out the best strategy. The Eldar also understand their technology flawlessly and do not need diplomats.

Now Ferrus is dead, but imagine any of the other primarch coming back from 10,000 years ago. They would instantly be the smartest man in the imperium, it might take another 1000 years but they would be able to radically improve the way the mechanicus does business (uhh, I remember it worked this way back in 30k, and that seemed to work somewhat better) they could administer the empire better than the great lords of terra(although I doubt the lords would give up their power) and thus their pressense alone would utterly destroy the balance of the galaxy.

As I said before, the Primarch left active in the galaxy is the one most devoid of leadership, planning, strategy, technology, and diplomacy. Angron acts like a force of nature.