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Also I just added a bit about just how naive Sisters can be to the Sororitas joke thread: it's the third one in this post. Warning: implicit nudity.

Gogsnik wrote:It can be made to work both ways just as I can also see the cloistered lifestyle giving rise to 'weaknesses' - the film The Devils with Oliver Reed is the kind of thing I'm thinking about, not in the context of what happens to the characters in that film but in the context of how a character's sheltered lifestyle does not make them immune to human flaws.

40K isn't a about idealized situations, lol. It's Grimdark. Things are done because "that's the way they've always been done" or "Because the Emprah (or his accepted mouthpiece) said so."

There's no inference that there's any perfection in the process, just that that's the process. Same reason that the process of making Space Marines is so rigid. They screwed with it once (the 21st Founding). It took them thousands of years to work up the guts to try it, and it failed so hard that nobody ever tried it again. That's why two thirds of Chapters are based on the Ultramarines and relatively few are based on the Blood Angels. Ultramarines geneseed works.

The Imperium is all about inefficiency, and backward-thinking, and superstition, and tradition. None of these things suggest a system where there's experimentation to "see what else might work".

Maybe you can make good Sisters of Battle without having to raise them from birth. That's not how it's done.

From Trioke

Actually, they actively isolate themselves from society. When not at war, they just stay in their monasteries, praying and training. Only the Canoness, and sometimes her Sister Superiors, has contact with the outside world.

I often view them as Nuns, they do keep to themselves, but they do interact with the outside world that they are in, and I'm sure they receive pilgrims and such, way more interaction than Space Marines.

I think the quote you are referring to is from Sisters of Battle 2ed, pg 35:
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation and it is generally only the Cannoness and he most experienced Sisters Superiors who will have dealing with outsider - even Sisters of another Order."

But I was thinking of this one, on the same page:
"The Order Hospitaller aid the poor and under-privileged, founding hostels and shelters for the needy. By instilling their own spiritual faith and rigid discipline on other, they save many souls from the darkness and turn potential malcontents and criminals into hard-working Imperial citizen."

Adeptus Sororitas have an entire branch dedicated to helping the needy and soldiers in various warzones, and those Hospitallers are often protected by the militant arm of the sisters. They have way more interaction with the public. However, this is all 2ed stuff, and I do feel a lot of it has been retconned to vagueness. The changes in the fluff I was referring to in my earlier post was due to our change in numbers and our divorce from the Inquisition.

And the Battle Sisters are supposed to be stationed at lots of Ecclesiarchy shrines and other holy sites, where presumably there's a constant influx of ordinary citizens as worshipers.

I think the Sisters at the shrines are like the Swiss Guard at the Vatican. They appear to be "for show", but are actually deadly-competent. The Sisters, of course, being in the IoM, are not subject to yahoos wandering up and trying to get them to crack a smile or move or react or something...

... and yahoos that *do* try this are publicly crucified. The wise man learns from the deaths of others.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
but they do interact with the outside world that they are in

Probably not much, though. And even then, not in a "normal" way. The 6E codex talks about the Ecclesiarchy using them as tithe collectors/enforcers, as well as symbols of the Ecclesiarchy's might. The 5E codex also says that when they're not out fighting the Ecclesiarchy's wars they divide their time between training and prayer, so I don't think that they really interact with that "outside" place unless it's to intimidate or simply immolate somebody why has defied the Ecclesiarchy.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
and I'm sure they receive pilgrims and such

I doubt it. There's a whole Ecclesiarchy to look after the spiritual needs of the hoi polloi, after all. The Sisters are the Ecclesiarchy's soldiers first and foremost, not its clergy. And, as we see above, their foremost interaction with citizens seems to be to act as a threat when they annoy the Ecclesiarchy.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
way more interaction than Space Marines.

Actually, that probably varies massively by Chapter. A big contrast I can think of is Dark Angels to Salamanders. DAs largely stay in the rock and are known for their reclusiveness, whilst Salamanders live alongside the citizens of their homeworld.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
I think the quote you are referring to is from Sisters of Battle 2ed, pg 35:
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation and it is generally only the Cannoness and he most experienced Sisters Superiors who will have dealing with outsider - even Sisters of another Order."

Eeyup, that'd be the one.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
"The Order Hospitaller aid the poor and under-privileged, founding hostels and shelters for the needy. By instilling their own spiritual faith and rigid discipline on other, they save many souls from the darkness and turn potential malcontents and criminals into hard-working Imperial citizen."

Adeptus Sororitas have an entire branch dedicated to helping the needy and soldiers in various warzones

Ah, sorry. Perhaps I should have clarified, I was just referring to the Orders Militant, not the non-Militant Orders. Yeah, those can have a lot of interaction with citizens. For the Orders Famulous, it's the biggest part of their job, in fact.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
and those Hospitallers are often protected by the militant arm of the sisters. They have way more interaction with the public.

True, but this would be in the context of a warzone, so the escorting Battle Sisters are probably more focused on war-stuff than really interacting with the citizens. The Sisters would probably be keeping an eye on the faith of the Sisters, but that'd likely be it.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
However, this is all 2ed stuff, and I do feel a lot of it has been retconned to vagueness.

Ah, but some fluff being old doesn't mean it's been retconned. See, problem with the Sisters is that their fluff hasn't been explored or changed a lot for quite while, now. 2E was a very in-depth exploration of them, giving a very detailed account of their history, as well as the Ecclesiarchy's. So that was cool. But then, they shared a codex with the Ordo Hereticus, which meant sharing the spotlight. Then we got the WD codex, which was pretty compact and largely just covered the basics. And, at present, the digital codex is mostly recycled with only a few new additions. So, in fairness, they haven't had much re-working anyway, so old details like that aren't necessarily forgotten.

Also, it still fits in very well with the current fluff. I mean, they're still the most hardcore of religious nutters, right? A highly isolated, highly focused lifestlye suits that perfectly, so the 2E fluff still fits well.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
The changes in the fluff I was referring to in my earlier post was due to our change in numbers and our divorce from the Inquisition.

The numbers haven't changed, though. Last we heard, the Major Orders are still 4000-7000 Sisters big, and the newest codex only clarified that Minor Orders can be as big as 1000 Sisters strong. Before, all we knew was that some were as small as 100 Sisters. It could indeed change at some point, but at the moment they haven't been.

The divorce from the Inquisition was indeed a change, though. Though, interestingly, it was fairly gradual, as retcons go. Obviously in the 3E codex, Sisters are Chamber Militant to the Hereticus. After that it all went a bit quiet, with the 6E rulebook just saying that the two "work closely" together. Finally, we came to the current =] [= codex, where there's not stated relationship other than the Hereticus "watching" the Sisters. So I'd call that a gradual change rather than a sudden one.

 SisterSydney wrote:
And the Battle Sisters are supposed to be stationed at lots of Ecclesiarchy shrines and other holy sites, where presumably there's a constant influx of ordinary citizens as worshipers.

Possibly, yes. Though, if a Sister's assigned shrine was a site for pilgrims, it'd probably all be very solemn anyway. The pilgrims would come along, be all reverent and maybe say some prayers or leave offerings, the usual holy stuff. This isn't majorly different to how the Sisters in the Convents are living, so I doubt that such an assignment would really influence a Sister much. Again, it's not really a "normal" interaction with the public.

Maybe she'd gain some more respect for citizens, but the Ecclesiarchy still goes around intimidating citizens who step out of line, so that would perhaps be countered somewhat.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the Sisters at the shrines are like the Swiss Guard at the Vatican. They appear to be "for show", but are actually deadly-competent. The Sisters, of course, being in the IoM, are not subject to yahoos wandering up and trying to get them to crack a smile or move or react or something... and yahoos that *do* try this are publicly crucified. The wise man learns from the deaths of others.

Darn it, now I totally need to write a story about this....

 Troike wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
And the Battle Sisters are supposed to be stationed at lots of Ecclesiarchy shrines and other holy sites, where presumably there's a constant influx of ordinary citizens as worshipers.

Possibly, yes. Though, if a Sister's assigned shrine was a site for pilgrims, it'd probably all be very solemn anyway. The pilgrims would come along, be all reverent and maybe say some prayers or leave offerings, the usual holy stuff. This isn't majorly different to how the Sisters in the Convents are living, so I doubt that such an assignment would really influence a Sister much. Again, it's not really a "normal" interaction with the public.....

It'd be definitely limited, but you could still learn things you never would in the convent:

SISTER: Sir, may I ask a question?
PRIEST: Uh, sure.
SISTER: You always want one of us to escort you when you're carrying that box. What's -- what's in it, sir?
PRIEST: What's in this box?
SISTER: Yes, sir.
PRIEST: This collection box?
SISTER: Yes, sir. What's in it? I see the faithful putting little -- things -- in it all the time but I don't know what they are.
PRIEST: ....
SISTER: Sir, what are they?
PRIEST: They're -- they're money.
SISTER: What's money, sir?
PRIEST: It's -- money -- well -- you buy things with it.
SISTER: "Buy," sir?
PRIEST: Ah. Um. All right, Let's say you're a subdeacon, all right, and at the end of the week, if you do all your work like you're supposed to....
SISTER: You don't get flogged?
PRIEST: What? No, no, if you do your job, you get paid. With money.
SISTER: I... I'm not sure I see, sir.
PRIEST: And then you can take your money and to go shops and buy things.
SISTER: I'm still not clear on this "buying," sir.
PRIEST: Well, you know, things you need. Like food or clothes or -- well -- a nice new hymnal. You...
SISTER: Oh, that would be nice. Mine is a bit worn.
PRIEST: Yes. No. No, that was just an example. You go to the shop, and you give the clerk some money, and he gives you the thing you want. If you've paid him enough money for it, of course.
SISTER: Oh.
PRIEST: Yes.
SISTER: Why wouldn't you just fill out a requisition form like a normal person?
PRIEST: Just -- just shut up and guard the bloody box.

It really works best if you imagine them both having English accents.

Interesting point. Would the Sisters know about everyday things like money?

I'd imagine that Sisters would know what money is. Or some of them might, anyway. They do get called enforce tithes from a Cardinal's dioceses (a diocese being area under that Cardinal's supervision), and tithes could mean monetary donations.

Edit: they might just also hear about money in the schola. Possibly.

I would think they would. I imagine that the Schola has basic classes like Economics and the like, providing a solid basic education to children who may go on to be in the Administratum and the like, before they get tracked to the Commissariat, the Sisterhood, the Ecclesiarchy, etc.

That's true, they really would understand the concept (unlike the Sister in my little scene above). They'd just have never done it in practice, since I doubt Schola kids are given pocket money and somewhere to spend it, let alone Novices.

Even the classroom education would probably focus more on tithing, taxation, and budgeting for a bureaucracy, military unit, or convent.

So it'd still be pretty hilarious when a Sister for some reason ended up in a commercial shop for the first time.

I've just posted the Novice Ginevra story -- well, actually it's the "not even in Schola yet" Ginevra story -- that was the reason for me starting this thread: The Beginning.