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 Kroothawk wrote:
I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.

How is this a bad thing?

I'd like to see the Haruspex without the bubble gum explosion thing he's got going on there.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.

Rumor was thrown around that the Trygon Prime was HQ.

So we have Swarmlord, Tyrant, Tervigon, and Tyranid Prime like in the old codex. Possibly a Trygon Prime, which would make sense flavor-wise.

The only drop is the Parasite which never had a model anyways. For all we know you could make a Parasite with wargear as I mentioned.

No biggie.

I think Tyranids fit being the first all plastic army better than many others. There's a lot of potential for bits swapping and they don't really have identifiable characters as such more breed types. It would be nice if there were biomorph variants listing some of the old foes that the Imperium had encountered in previous battles Red Terror, Old One Eye etc etc.

Did anybody save a copy of the pics before they went? I know I didn't

The Harpy/Crone were on flying stands weren't they? Knocks my theory of using the Tyrant kit out a little bit...

Yeah, I think this is less 'no finecast' and more 'no options that don't have models'.

I really hope there is a second release in Feb for all the finecast Elites/Broodlord.

 Medium of Death wrote:

Did anybody save a copy of the pics before they went? I know I didn't

You can find all the pictures on TTH

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/44428/tyranid-rumours-more-updates-pics

[Edit]

Actually, if you go to the first page of this thread, you'll find them too.

 pretre wrote:

 warpcrafter wrote:
THAT'S the Haruspex? Excuse me while I wipe up. Somebody at GW owes a HUGE dept to H. P. Lovecraft.

This just in. All art is derivative. Back to you, Bob.

Granted, but the derivation in this case didn't stray far from the inspiration. Not that I'm complaining. That is one awesomely grotesque critter.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Just for the record:

anonymous source over at Faeit 212 wrote:two new dataslates coming alongside tyranids next month. you might find it interesting that they are called codex dataslates. not sure what that means.

-Codex Dataslate: Tyranid Vanguard
advanced force of lictors, genestealers and more

-Codex Dataslate: Tyrannic War Veterans
Chaplin Cassius and his elite forces

Also, this seems to be the first Codex release with no new model below 50$, correct?

Yeay Day 0 DLC 's for 40k !!! Such breakthrough, very narrative , wow.

 Janthkin wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?

What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.

If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.

I think there's lots to discuss.

Pod-heavy armies are a big deal for 'nid players - look at NIB's armies on tyranid hive. It will be a profound rearrangement for many if they're gone, a bigger deal for people who play nids than the (imaginary) loss of HQs (for after all, there was no official Prime model before).

Given the prices of these kits, I'll probably do a bit of cherry picking. Two of the big monster and a Prime is probably about it.

I've already got a brood of 6 Warriors with scythng talons and deathspitters, and another brood of 3 awaiting either conversion into Shrikes or arms to turn into normal Warriors. I'll see how the rules for both pan out.

Other than that, I really just need more Termagants, a third Carnifex and to finish off my Zoanthrope and Hive Guard broods - and there will be plenty of old models on ebay for a long time for me to do that.

The new kits are nice, and make me want to expand my army, but the prices are still flying rodent gak insane enough to get me to cherry pick and that's about all.

Is the Prime not going to be part of the Warrior kit?

 TotallyNotABot wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

Did anybody save a copy of the pics before they went? I know I didn't

You can find all the pictures on TTH

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/44428/tyranid-rumours-more-updates-pics

[Edit]

Actually, if you go to the first page of this thread, you'll find them too.

Yeah half of them aren't working for some reason, for me anyway. Perhaps it's a region thing, they were fine ealier though...

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I think this is less 'no finecast' and more 'no options that don't have models'.

So according to you, it is not a sign of a no-Finecast-policy, but a no-models-for-units-without-models-policy

 Absolutionis wrote:
Rumor has it that there are several mutations/wargear that's available for the army. Some of them will be a one-per-army mutation/wargear.

For all we know, some of these one-ofs will give us the ability to field essentially a Doom or Parasite without having their own listings. Give a Zoanthrope a "Spirit Leech" mutation or a Prime a "Ripper Host + Wings" mutation and it's all good.

After all, the Eldar got a piece of wargear that essentially allowed you to field a Solitaire without releasing a specific model for it.

I consider this to be a good thing. I've long been against the idea of Tyranid special chracters and the idea that there are "personalities" within the Hive Mind, like Doom or the Parasite are creatures that travel from warzone to warzone. The Hive Mind doesn't (or shouldn't) function that way. Tyranids have an “everything you can do I can do better… eventually” mentality to problem solving, and their method is through trial and error and adapting to their foes.

Hive Fleet Behemoth was just that, a massive all-in style attack of pure brute force. The creatures in that were simplistic compared to Leviathan Tyranids, and the ‘Nids overwhelmed the things they couldn’t realistically counter. Kraken then came around with more advanced Tyranids, and the ‘Nids started to ape the strategies and tactics of the forces they were facing. That’s why we start to see more ranged weapons, larger creatures to counter Titans, and so on. By the time we hit Leviathan we’ve got a far more diverse structure, as the Hive Mind has tested out new designs and kept the ones that work.

So “Special Characters” never made sense. Prototypes, or specific creatures designed for a specific purpose make more sense. The Red Terror could be seen as the genesis of the Trygon – something the Hive Mind made to give it an advantage in that specific warzone but then later found that the mutation was generally useful elsewhere and thus began mass producing them. The Doom could be a similar thing, a creature created for the specific purpose of overwhelming the Eldar of Craftworld Malan’tai, a one-off “super” Zoanthrope that while useful in that situation hasn’t found widespread use as the Zoanthrope does the job more efficiently.

No Tyranid is special. They’re all fodder for the digestion pits come the end of a campaign. So the idea of “one off” mutations seems like a great way of allowing individualistic Tyranids without creating personalities.

But where does that leave the Swarmlord, you ask? Well that’s an interesting one, and I think it comes back to what the Hive Mind finds useful. In The Achillus Assault and Mark of the Xenos, two expansion books for the Deathwatch RPG, they talk about an interesting Tyranid void ship that seems to house the generic memories of particular creatures, so that experience from battles can be kept and imprinted on new creatures. The creature in question is the Dagon Overlord, another “unique” Hive Tyrant that isn’t actually unique. It’s been killed many times, but it keeps coming back (like the Swarmlord) with all it had learnt in tact because the Hive Mind has chosen to retain this “pattern” of creature for repeated use. It’s a bit like the Cylons from BSG, specifically the Cylon Raiders. They’re good because each time one dies it just transfers its consciousness into a new body, allowing all the experience to be kept rather than having to train a new pilot.

That’s how ‘Nid characters should work, and I hope the Codex goes in that direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I think this is less 'no finecast' and more 'no options that don't have models'.

Which is a little bit backwards. I think it should be a case of things without models get them, not things without models get cut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:
So according to you, it is not a sign of a no-Finecast-policy, but a no-models-for-units-without-models-policy

Why can't it be both?

Premise 1: We want all things with rules to have models.
Premise 2: We don't want to make any new FineCost models.
Conclusion: Models without rules that would be FineCost (as plastic moulds are expensive) get cut.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Quite interested in special rules for Cassius and his Nid Hunters, especially as I just bought a bunch of components to build him. Pity it won't be 'for free' in WD where it belongs...

First of the haruspex has been renamed as the hentiafex thanks to my friend :/
Next just reread the supposed new psychic powers and catalyst got a buff with it being 2 units one has to be the psyker (lets say the Swarmlord) another unit lets say hormagunts thus making both really benefit a flyrant will be able to both use it and help its garagoly screen just thought it was a great deal.

 Absolutionis wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.

Rumor was thrown around that the Trygon Prime was HQ.

So we have Swarmlord, Tyrant, Tervigon, and Tyranid Prime like in the old codex. Possibly a Trygon Prime, which would make sense flavor-wise.

The only drop is the Parasite which never had a model anyways. For all we know you could make a Parasite with wargear as I mentioned.

No biggie.

Honestly I would be sad if they got rid of special characters to me it allowed the ability to represent a new a super mutation for that specific battle. Especially since I have taken the time to customize specific models to represent some of the special characters and to have to shelf them would be a shame in my eyes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Rumor has it that there are several mutations/wargear that's available for the army. Some of them will be a one-per-army mutation/wargear.

For all we know, some of these one-ofs will give us the ability to field essentially a Doom or Parasite without having their own listings. Give a Zoanthrope a "Spirit Leech" mutation or a Prime a "Ripper Host + Wings" mutation and it's all good.

After all, the Eldar got a piece of wargear that essentially allowed you to field a Solitaire without releasing a specific model for it.

I consider this to be a good thing. I've long been against the idea of Tyranid special chracters and the idea that there are "personalities" within the Hive Mind, like Doom or the Parasite are creatures that travel from warzone to warzone. The Hive Mind doesn't (or shouldn't) function that way. Tyranids have an “everything you can do I can do better… eventually” mentality to problem solving, and their method is through trial and error and adapting to their foes.

Hive Fleet Behemoth was just that, a massive all-in style attack of pure brute force. The creatures in that were simplistic compared to Leviathan Tyranids, and the ‘Nids overwhelmed the things they couldn’t realistically counter. Kraken then came around with more advanced Tyranids, and the ‘Nids started to ape the strategies and tactics of the forces they were facing. That’s why we start to see more ranged weapons, larger creatures to counter Titans, and so on. By the time we hit Leviathan we’ve got a far more diverse structure, as the Hive Mind has tested out new designs and kept the ones that work.

So “Special Characters” never made sense. Prototypes, or specific creatures designed for a specific purpose make more sense. The Red Terror could be seen as the genesis of the Trygon – something the Hive Mind made to give it an advantage in that specific warzone but then later found that the mutation was generally useful elsewhere and thus began mass producing them. The Doom could be a similar thing, a creature created for the specific purpose of overwhelming the Eldar of Craftworld Malan’tai, a one-off “super” Zoanthrope that while useful in that situation hasn’t found widespread use as the Zoanthrope does the job more efficiently.

No Tyranid is special. They’re all fodder for the digestion pits come the end of a campaign. So the idea of “one off” mutations seems like a great way of allowing individualistic Tyranids without creating personalities.

But where does that leave the Swarmlord, you ask? Well that’s an interesting one, and I think it comes back to what the Hive Mind finds useful. In The Achillus Assault and Mark of the Xenos, two expansion books for the Deathwatch RPG, they talk about an interesting Tyranid void ship that seems to house the generic memories of particular creatures, so that experience from battles can be kept and imprinted on new creatures. The creature in question is the Dagon Overlord, another “unique” Hive Tyrant that isn’t actually unique. It’s been killed many times, but it keeps coming back (like the Swarmlord) with all it had learnt in tact because the Hive Mind has chosen to retain this “pattern” of creature for repeated use. It’s a bit like the Cylons from BSG, specifically the Cylon Raiders. They’re good because each time one dies it just transfers its consciousness into a new body, allowing all the experience to be kept rather than having to train a new pilot.

That’s how ‘Nid characters should work, and I hope the Codex goes in that direction.

Well, you just sold me on a 'nid army.

In all seriousness, that sounds really cool. Which is why the parasite never made much sense to me. There didn't seem to be a precedent for an "infection" creature, so the parasite always felt out of place to me. All the other characters made sense as "Alphas", proto-mutations or transferred consensuses, but the Parasite seemed like a one of a kind monster, so it never seemed to mesh.

Now to price out that new 'nid army...

You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.

One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.

With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.

One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.

With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.

That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.

One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.

With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.

That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!

I know right? It's just down right silly. Even by 40k standards.

It's even better if it's someone like Eldrad, who is meant to be dead. Oh, rose himself from the grave just for a quick brawl has he? That's awfully lively of him!

Medium of Death wrote:I think Tyranids fit being the first all plastic army better than many others. There's a lot of potential for bits swapping and they don't really have identifiable characters as such more breed types. It would be nice if there were biomorph variants listing some of the old foes that the Imperium had encountered in previous battles Red Terror, Old One Eye etc etc.

Did anybody save a copy of the pics before they went? I know I didn't

The Harpy/Crone were on flying stands weren't they? Knocks my theory of using the Tyrant kit out a little bit...

They are on flying stands.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?

What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.

If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.

I think there's lots to discuss.

Pod-heavy armies are a big deal for 'nid players - look at NIB's armies on tyranid hive. It will be a profound rearrangement for many if they're gone, a bigger deal for people who play nids than the (imaginary) loss of HQs (for after all, there was no official Prime model before).

Pod-heavy armies were a big deal for a select few 'nid players. Most of the competitive scene was all Tervigons and Flyrants. The Doom in a Spore was often it, and seeing as how GW didn't sell either, it really doesn't matter that they are gone.

If some people were completely dependent on that strategy, they will just have to adapt. Perfect since they are playing Tyranids.

Most armies have seen changes since 6th edition and had to adjust the way they play. Sticking to the same strategy, and only that strategy for eternity is a rather boring way to play the game (for the player and his/her opponents).

They technically didn't have to spend any money on Spores, since GW never made them, so it's not a major setback to anyone who played it smart.

RandyMcStab wrote:Quite interested in special rules for Cassius and his Nid Hunters, especially as I just bought a bunch of components to build him. Pity it won't be 'for free' in WD where it belongs...

No, it will be a whopping $4 to have on a phone, tablet, or computer at all times instead of a magazine for $10.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.

One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.

With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.

That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!

So the Swarmlord is like an organic Ultron?

I agree about Special Characters, to an extent. It's also one of many things I disliked about Warmachine - half the models are named characters in that game.

A lot of people aren't great at writing their own stories, so they want to use the guys from the ones already laid out. SC's give everyone something, but I NEVER liked them for Tyranids. I preferred the Tyranids to remain truly anonymous and without personality.

 brassangel wrote:
No, it will be a whopping $4 to have on a phone, tablet, or computer at all times instead of a magazine for $10.

And then free on the website.

Stop apologising for them.

Well, actually, the nids SC are already without personality. The Deathleaper, for example doesn't really have a personality; he's as much as a killing machine as the lictor. He doesn't talk and he can't be reasoned. He's intelligent, but intelligence doesn't necessarily mean personality.

Compare this to Trazyn, who speaks, taunts, has a sense of humor and just flat out acts like a dick when it meets his fancy. That's a personality right there.

The Deadhleaper is a good example of something that should exist in the fluff, but not in-game. It was created for that Medusa campaign GW ran a while back. It was something the Hive Mind wanted to get back (ie. take in and consume) because it had gathered some very important information. It was a one-off creature created for a specific purpose.

Trazyn works from the point that he can create multiples of himself, decoys or otherwise.

Deathleaper as a model works/ed as a nice Lictor stand in too.

I always secretly hoped that plastic ravenors would have taken on the headshape of the Red Terror... same with the Trygon/Mawloc

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Deadhleaper is a good example of something that should exist in the fluff, but not in-game. It was created for that Medusa campaign GW ran a while back. It was something the Hive Mind wanted to get back (ie. take in and consume) because it had gathered some very important information. It was a one-off creature created for a specific purpose.

I feel that something like the Deathleaper works if you view it as a "super-model+", basically a specialized super-licter that's even better than a usual lictor, but requires more investment, and so is only deployed in very strategic locations. More of a Death-Leaper class lictor, but "THE DEATH LEAPER" sounds cooler, and is probably what the puny humans call it.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I feel that something like the Deathleaper works if you view it as a "super-model+", basically a specialized super-licter that's even better than a usual lictor, but requires more investment, and so is only deployed in very strategic locations. More of a Death-Leaper class lictor, but "THE DEATH LEAPER" sounds cooler, and is probably what the puny humans call it.

I get what you’re saying, and I too like the idea of the Deathleaper being a variant of the Lictor rather than a single solitary Tyranid “personality”, but it comes back to the way the Hive Mind works. If they have Lictors, and Super Lictors… why ever use Lictors? What purpose would it serve to continue using an inferior strain if the Deathleaper is obviously superior?

In a lot of ways Tyranids should be like Eldar Aspect Warriors. They all do one thing only (for the most part) and focus on that one thing. Versatility isn’t a word the Hive Mind should understand because it has no need to make a “bug for all occasions”. The Hive Mind is about specificity. It sees challenges and obstacles and creates specific solutions to those problems. Any the things that prove to have uses outside of their specific purpose (and we’d look at things like Warriors and Carnifexes as examples of this) would stick around. Everything else comes out as needed.

Again - Deathleaper and company are prototypes. Giving them some autonomy risks them breaking free of the hive mind so they don't want that to be the default.

Or something.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?

What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.

If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.

I think there's lots to discuss.

Pod-heavy armies are a big deal for 'nid players - look at NIB's armies on tyranid hive. It will be a profound rearrangement for many if they're gone, a bigger deal for people who play nids than the (imaginary) loss of HQs (for after all, there was no official Prime model before).

I have 5 homemade spores and used a null deployment army during 5th...at least until GKs arrived with all the trump cards. Here's how I look at it. On the list of possibilities, spores being eliminated is a more favorable outcome than me spending $300-400 to purchase official models. I'm guessing that deep striking may be more limited overall, but let's see what other options, formations, etc. arrive.

Right now things also aren't looking good for Shrikes. And I'm only sitting on like 4 sets of FW wings. I guess the bright side is that I never finished them and can repurpose the Warrior bodies.