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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

With a unit of 30 termagants.

To my eyes, all data points to it not being significantly better or worse than their current dex.

skarsol wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

BS3 (+1 if it doesn't move or assault that turn) and 24". Not exactly "long".

That's 24" longer than the AP3 or better guns in the previous codex.

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

This consistent pattern in virtually every codex GW releases (at least, the ones that aren't attempting massive overhauls of the army like Daemons or Dark Eldar) demonstrates to me that GW either does not know how to, or does not really care to, write rules for their own game.

My first impression is that the power of the Codex has been spread out more equitably between the FOC slots. Before, it was mostly HQ and Troops doing the heavy lifting. Now, it seems we have many more options throughout the FOC to help with the workload of devouring fleshy meatbags.

 gorgon wrote:
To the studio, other armies are proper protagonists and antagonists that get to have proper 'heroes' and 'villains'. Meanwhile Tyranids are just an animalistic adversary to be overcome. It's heroic and cinematic to have some level 1 librarian taking down a Trygon or Tervigon with a single swing of his force weapon, so that's acceptable. It's also heroic and cinematic for some SM officer suffer enormous blows from a Carnifex that should have pulverized him and keep fighting, so that's acceptable also. The EW rule is an expression of cinematic heroics/villainry.

I strongly suspect that you are correct. Even if this isn't The Studio's intent it has very much become the mind set of many Marine players.

If Tyranids were a third-party faction controlled by a GM or a random set of 'action cards' or some kind of flow chart that would be fine. But they aren't. I'm a player so why don't my monsters get to be heroic? Or are GW only interested in the kind of mainstream action movie cinematic experience?

How can anybody deal so poorly with iconic units such as 'stealers and Tyranid Warriors?

It frustrates me that GW can on the other hand produce a game like Space Hulk were both players can win or lose, where the two sides are both so different yet balanced...all while on the edge of their seats. The Marine player in SH knows he could lose. He knows that each marine can kill a dozen or more 'stealers but be torn apart at a stroke if he screws up or bad luck befalls him.

Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot. With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

NamelessBard wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

With a unit of 30 termagants.

Which is the issue.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

This consistent pattern in virtually every codex GW releases (at least, the ones that aren't attempting massive overhauls of the army like Daemons or Dark Eldar) demonstrates to me that GW either does not know how to, or does not really care to, write rules for their own game.

and if they HAD buffed the last model that no one bought,

you would complain they only buff models to sell models....

*ducks behind couch*

3hq's

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

This consistent pattern in virtually every codex GW releases (at least, the ones that aren't attempting massive overhauls of the army like Daemons or Dark Eldar) demonstrates to me that GW either does not know how to, or does not really care to, write rules for their own game.

Right on the money. Because the 'hidden agenda' arguments don't seem to hold any water since sometimes new units are good and sometimes outright terrible, the most logical conclusion is that some units being good and some useless isn't premeditated in any way. You can pretty much roll a D6 to determine how many 'high performance' units a new codex will have. Everything else will be junk.

 Souleater wrote:
It frustrates me that GW can on the other hand produce a game like Space Hulk were both players can win or lose, where the two sides are both so different yet balanced...all while on the edge of their seats. The Marine player in SH knows he could lose. He knows that each marine can kill a dozen or more 'stealers but be torn apart at a stroke if he screws up or bad luck befalls him.

Space Hulk was written nearly 30 years ago, and then resurrected for a limited release with the new box set.

GW's follow-up to that was a newly created limited release board game called Dreadfleet, which has abysmal game play and was widely panned as garbage.

GW simply does not know how to write games anymore. The guys who did are long gone.

Can someone sell the Crone to me? I see people saying it's good and including it in potential lists, but I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of S5, which doesn't really cut it for the points cost and survivability. Although it has Rage, I think. Am I translating that correctly? Seems odd, but I guess it helps. Fexes have it too.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my Flyrant's S6/T6/3+ goodness.

But yeah, Fexes have Rage. That's good...

 Souleater wrote:
How can anybody deal so poorly with iconic units such as 'stealers and Tyranid Warriors?

As I said a few pages back, this is the part that frustrates me the most. The little things that don’t change or get worse seemingly against all logic and sense and history. I mean within a few seconds of seeing the entries in the preview we knew that Warriors and ‘Stealers were hosed. Anyone who understands how the game works can see units that just don’t work as intended (or even ones that don’t work, period). And then you factor in that some of these units (Lictors, anyone?) have languished for so long without a decent set of rules to make them worth taking.

I always say “Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to incompetence”, but I don’t think it’s just general incompetence either. It’s either complete apathy or just a complete lack of understanding of the basic nature of the game they’re writing for. I’ll never claim to be the greatest rules writer in the world, but come on people, I know I could do better than some of these. Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck (or somehow got worse, against all logic); how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

 Therion wrote:
You can pretty much roll a D6 to determine how many 'high performance' units a new codex will have. Everything else will be junk.

Somewhat ironic considering "rolling a D6 to see how good your unit is for this turn/game" is one of their favorite methods for sucking the usefulness out of a unit.

 The Shadow wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

With a unit of 30 termagants.

Which is the issue.

Really thats not. Even with the Terv going up and Gants getting cheaper, its still a worthwhile combo and something I would have given money to GW for (buying more Gants).

 The Shadow wrote:
Can someone sell the Crone to me? I see people saying it's good and including it in potential lists, but I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of S5, which doesn't really cut it for the points cost and survivability. Although it has Rage, I think. Am I translating that correctly? Seems odd, but I guess it helps. Fexes have it too.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my Flyrant's S6/T6/3+ goodness.

It's really not that great. If the thing couldn't be grounded. If the thing could target flyers with it's main gun. If vector striking didn't require being in the open most of the time. If it could fire 4 weapons like a flyer. If the cannon had torrent. If no one took quad guns. Then maybe it would be good (not to mention T6 Av 4+). The missiles are pretty good, but not at the expense of everything else.

Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

@CalgarsPimpHand: Please re-read the original post by Gorgon that I was responding to.

I'm not talking game balance per se but the gut feeling I and Gorgon seem to share about GW's view of the Tyranid's place in the 'cinematic experience'.

You may be well about their rules writing, of course.

Bodiless wrote:
Interesting to note that devgaunts kept the same stat line but the cost dropped by 2....

So, an Ork hoard works with 30 unit squads of shoota boyzs covered by a KFF.

Doesn't it seem like Tyranids running 30 unit squads of devgaunts covered by venomthropes is even more viable?

Shoota Boy:
BS 2, Range 18", S 4, AP 6, Assault 2, Cost: 6

Devgaunts:
BS 3, Range 18", S 4, AP -, Assault 3, Cost: 8

Venomthrope gives 2+ to existing cover saves, so instead of being limited to the Boyz 5+ save, if you bubblewrap the front (Carnifexes or Tyranofexes), you should be able to get 3+ saves, right?

Is seems like a pretty viable strategy to me. I know ork hoard isn't ideal, but Tyranid hoard looks much tougher.

They still may not have high range, or AP 2, but if they get within 18" they will throw dice at you until you die.

 The Shadow wrote:

But yeah, Fexes have Rage. That's good...

I think coraje means fearless, not rage.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

I'm glad I gave ScyTals to the two Tervigons I built a couple of weeks ago... not that ScyTals do anything now... Bloody hell...

H.B.M.C wrote:Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck; how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

I'd side with your apathy presumption. I doubt they take the task of making every unit useful and interesting very seriously. Otherwise garbage such as the new Warriors or Stealers or Howling Banshees etc. wouldn't exist. I think one of my friends (who now works as a games designer / 3d artist in the video game industry) told me long ago that it's a shame that the people at the GW studio don't realise how much potential they have. They have a fan- and customer base that has proven to be willing to take it from behind and suffer through all sorts of crap with basically zero communication and encouragement from the HQ, but they just can't deliver a competitive product and take their company to the next level.

 jifel wrote:
Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

It looks pretty on paper

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot.

You have accepted an initial flaw in your army, which is a reliance on cover. So how to you kill the pathfinders early? You have 1 Rupture cannon to reach out to 36" with BS3, thats 1 dead Pathfinder. Assuming its not in cover and nightfighting..etc..

2k points.. Double FOC. Whats your plan to deal with Riptides with HBCs and IA here ? Could be 6 of them. Your FMCs can zip across the board but you will leave your support behind. 2k points, its easy to assume a Skyray might be there.. Pick a FMC and kiss it goodbye. With Velocity Trackers and no support your FMCs will do little since you have no disruption units to pop in Round 2 to occupy stuff... Doom, Ymgarls... even Devilgants.

Lets ignore Eldar with serpent spam to ignore your cover saves and blow the Venomthropes away first.

With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

The entirety of your tactics is based on having a Venomtrope give you cover saves ? Round 1 marker lights followed by a Overcharged IA and you can kiss that Venom brood goodbye and then what do you have ? Where is your survivability? Previously with 60 Gants you could easily have 8 scoring units + spawned rather than 4.

Double FOCs exploit our weaknesses far more. We have not alot that can protect us vs the high quality shooting out there anymore.

NamelessBard wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Can someone sell the Crone to me? I see people saying it's good and including it in potential lists, but I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of S5, which doesn't really cut it for the points cost and survivability. Although it has Rage, I think. Am I translating that correctly? Seems odd, but I guess it helps. Fexes have it too.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my Flyrant's S6/T6/3+ goodness.

It's really not that great. If the thing couldn't be grounded. If the thing could target flyers with it's main gun. If vector striking didn't require being in the open most of the time. If it could fire 4 weapons like a flyer. If the cannon had torrent. If no one took quad guns. Then maybe it would be good (not to mention T6 Av 4+). The missiles are pretty good, but not at the expense of everything else.

It's even a little worse than that, T5 Sv4+. At least having 5 wounds keeps you from being one-shotted by a quad gun. Still, between that and grounding tests your Crone won't be around long.

 Therion wrote:

H.B.M.C wrote:Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck; how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

I'd side with your apathy presumption. I doubt they take the task of making every unit useful and interesting very seriously. Otherwise garbage such as the new Warriors or Stealers or Howling Banshees etc. wouldn't exist. I think one of my friends (who now works as a games designer / 3d artist in the video game industry) told me long ago that it's a shame that the people at the GW studio don't realise how much potential they have. They have a fan- and customer base that has proven to be willing to take it from behind and suffer through all sorts of crap with basically zero communication and encouragement from the HQ, but they just can't deliver a competitive product and take their company to the next level.

That's my one issue, above all else, with GW.

I'll take the prices, lack of communication, all the other nonsense, because, at the end of the day, I can (and have) divorce myself from the company and continue my hobby in other directions and with other companies.

What continues to get under my skin, no matter how much I might distance myself, is the massive squandering of potential, the difference between what 40K is and what it could be feels almost criminal.

Eldercaveman wrote:

ductvader wrote:

skarsol wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Defo getting more Venomthhropes if they give shrouded. Lictors with Stealth in that bubble have a 2+ cover save and can only be snapshotted at, that's a massive + on the survival front.

They give Shrouded to friendly Models (so Units) within 6".

Fantastic! I built mine from chaos spawn. All tentacles and hormagaunt heads...I don't like the current r@pethrope.

PM or link some photos, I'm interested to see what you've done, thanks

skarsol wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So Bonesabres no longer force re-roll of successful invulnerable saves?

Boneswords are S User AP3 To Wound 6 = ID. Nothing about invuln saves. Pretty blah.

You will notice I said Bonesabres, not Swords.

Agreed.
Link or send pics.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

Isn't Armourbane 2D6 for pen rolls? I'd think S7+2D6 from 3 base attacks is better than S10+1D6 re-rolled from 2 base attacks.

 xttz wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

Isn't Armourbane 2D6 for pen rolls? I'd think S7+2D6 from 3 base attacks is better than S10+1D6 re-rolled from 2 base attacks.

It is slightly better. But not 15 points better is the issue.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

H.B.M.C wrote:Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck; how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

I'd side with your apathy presumption. I doubt they take the task of making every unit useful and interesting very seriously. Otherwise garbage such as the new Warriors or Stealers or Howling Banshees etc. wouldn't exist. I think one of my friends (who now works as a games designer / 3d artist in the video game industry) told me long ago that it's a shame that the people at the GW studio don't realise how much potential they have. They have a fan- and customer base that has proven to be willing to take it from behind and suffer through all sorts of crap with basically zero communication and encouragement from the HQ, but they just can't deliver a competitive product and take their company to the next level.

That's my one issue, above all else, with GW.

I'll take the prices, lack of communication, all the other nonsense, because, at the end of the day, I can (and have) divorce myself from the company and continue my hobby in other directions and with other companies.

What continues to get under my skin, no matter how much I might distance myself, is the massive squandering of potential, the difference between what 40K is and what it could be feels almost criminal.

A buyout and clearing house of all the old heads who have become complacent would fix this. I don't like seeing anyone lose their jobs, but there is such a thing as staying at one company for too long imo