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 Mahtamori wrote:


Doesn't directly fix Dreadnoughts, of course, but benefits all vehicles which are struggling.
Quite frankly I'm a bit partial to the armour save idea since I'm so annoyed at the "hits rear" rule, which in itself makes no sense because this 30-man pile of green-skins is trying to use axes against a space-flight capable grav-tank - they can't all fit in the rear and even if they could they'd be hard pressed to actually find something that's vulnerable.
Will still not matter against the Nob, of course.

One thing that I've been saying since 5th Edition is that I wish in melee vehicles were hit on the armour facing that the attacker was actually attacking. So if you're attacking a Wave Serpent in the front arc, you have to beat the AV12. My personal idea is that instead of having all melee attacks hit the rear of a vehicle demonstrating that they are hitting vulnerable areas, they should get a -2 modifier on the AV they are striking, to represent the fact that they are hitting vulnerable spots, like firing into viewports and shoving grenades into engines, that sort of thing.

There are several things I like about this rule.

1) Gives AV14 vehicles something to be scared of. In melee they'd get hit at AV12.
2) It rewards more strategy on the part of the attacker. If you can actually get rear hits on a vehicle, now you're hitting at AV8!
3) AV 13 and 14 tanks are now more appropriately less vulnerable to melee attacks in their front facing where they are more heavily armoured.

The bad things?

1) I think it punishes weak vehicles like AV10 open-topped vehicles too much. They'd be much too weak.
2) in a large melee it would be too time consuming to figure out which model was hitting which facing of the vehicle.

It's this last #2 bad thing which is the reason I'm pretty sure the game designers would never consider anything like this. It'd just be way too cumbersome, slow the game down too much, and cause too many disputes.

Dreadnoughts would be fine if they could just get Skyfire.

Seriously. an AV 12/12/10 shell hiding behind an ADL with 2 TLAC and a QG. It's 8 S7AP4 shots a turn with a 4+ cover save.

I mean, surely the imperium has thought of this.

Of course, this comes to mind....

Murrdox wrote:
However, then I think you're just turning Vehicles into Monstrous Creatures. That alone should tell us that something is seriously gakked with the way vehicles work in the game, when we're looking at fixing them by making them more like MC and less like vehicles. Monstrous Creatures need toned down, and Vehicles need to be made distinct from them. I think Hull Points was a good idea for 6th Edition to make vehicles more killable than they used to be. One problem is that I think ALL vehicles really need MORE hull points. More hull points would give players an incentive to go for those penetrating hits... to get those one-shot explosions. But with the new damage table and hull points, combined with the fact that most high strength weapons are one-shot, when you've got autocannons that have four... it's just easier to go for Hull Points instead. TOO EASY.

Mahtamori wrote:Armour save is interesting because it addresses casual anti-vehicle weapons (krak grenades, scatter lasers, etc) without challenging dedicated anti-vehicle weapons (melta bombs, rokkit launchas, etc).
Simply more hull points is interesting in that it just ups what it takes to kill a vehicle.

Rolling a 4+ to remove a hull point on a glance would be a quick and dirty fix without redoing all the vehicle entries. You double the amount of glances (on average) that you need to take down a vehicle, while leaving penetrating hits just as effective as they are now. Plus you can add special rules that can modify the new roll on weapons or vehicles. Hell, most of the rules that "ignore shaken or stunned" for a vehicle could be changed to -x on the roll to remove a hull point on a glance this would make them much more relevant.

Mahtamori wrote:Bringing crew shaken back on a glance may be a mitigation?

Stunlocking vehicles needed to go, no need to bring it back.

Instead of adding yet another fething die roll to this game, how about we get rid of glancing hits altogether? You penetrate the armor or nothing happens.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Rolling a 4+ to remove a hull point on a glance would be a quick and dirty fix without redoing all the vehicle entries. You double the amount of glances (on average) that you need to take down a vehicle, while leaving penetrating hits just as effective as they are now. Plus you can add special rules that can modify the new roll on weapons or vehicles. Hell, most of the rules that "ignore shaken or stunned" for a vehicle could be changed to -x on the roll to remove a hull point on a glance this would make them much more relevant.

That's another reason I hate the Hull Point system. All special rules for negating the effects of penetrating hits basically become useless. In 6th edition, 4/5 times a vehicle is Hull Pointed to death, in my experience. What's the point of paying for Armour Plates, or Grot Riggers, or Spirit Stones anymore?

Back in 5th Edition, I loved being able to use my Grot Riggers to restart a Battlewagon that was immobilized in the middle of the board. It made for some great, fun gaming moments. Those type of moments just don't happen anymore in 6th Edition. It's LESS FUN.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Instead of adding yet another fething die roll to this game, how about we get rid of glancing hits altogether? You penetrate the armor or nothing happens.

I like this a lot. It wouldn't be easy but it makes so much more sense to me.

At that point makes sense just to translate AVs into T values

 SisterSydney wrote:
Instead of adding yet another fething die roll to this game, how about we get rid of glancing hits altogether? You penetrate the armor or nothing happens.

If we're chucking tradition and die rolls out the window the best system would be subtracting S+d6 from AV and comparing that to a table of results.

Yes, death to tradition. But apparently subtraction is harder for most people (myself included) than addition -- best to avoid it in game design.

robam45 wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Instead of adding yet another fething die roll to this game, how about we get rid of glancing hits altogether? You penetrate the armor or nothing happens.

I like this a lot. It wouldn't be easy but it makes so much more sense to me.

Thanks. But why wouldn't it be easy? Is there anything but force of habit in the way?

Jefffar wrote:At that point makes sense just to translate AVs into T values

Yes! This! This. Is. Simpler.

I have no idea why whoever added vehicle rules to the basic "WHFB In Space" ruleset decided to come up with an entire separate set of mechanics. If he (almost certainly a he) had been lazier and just said "yeah vehicles are just big square cavalry with stats like everything else, I'm done, off to the pub now" we'd be much better off.

I would be happy with seeing grenades hit on 6's in melee, and possibly the inclusion of Walkers gaining Rampage.

If you're in a huge, towering vehicle with often a very large weapon, you'd be swinging that thing in cleaving attacks rather than in single strikes. Rampage could help represent that.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Instead of adding yet another fething die roll to this game, how about we get rid of glancing hits altogether? You penetrate the armor or nothing happens.

That does make the most sense

Fixing Dreadnaughts can only be done in 1 of 2 ways
1) make it a Wraithlord
2) or up it to AV 13/13/12

This is all because Shooting with krak grenades has made anything AV 12/12/10 a total joke , even if Dreadnaughts were free they would still use up a slot on the FOC. They still have the problem of there just free kill point in most games. I think only Orks & Nids can't have krak grenades(or better EMP, Haywire) on there Troops & most of the time grenades are free or with IG less then 1 point each.

Not sure if its been stated but in the original Rogue Trader rules all vehicles had a toughness and wounds characteristic. There was no distinction between vehicle or monstrous creature. Obviously you could just do three toughness values for a vehicle based on its facing or whatnot. Specifically as to dreadnoughts, somewhere earlier someone posted a correct assesment that dreadnoughts are more akin to MC's than Riptides are. The riptide should be an AV 13 jump-walker thing. Make dreads T6 MC's. Honestly i'm ok with the Wraithknight and Wraithlords since they are sort of controlled by a fully integraded spirit stone network or whatever (black magic says I). Ork dreds.....not sure...I'm thinking they are still vehicles with an ork or grot in there pulling levers and gears. Sentinels are definately vehicles.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Make them MC, that way they will be a lot tougher.

No. Never say that again. Do NOT make Walkers into MCs, we're trying to get that turned around the other darn way!

I think it would be ok so long as there is a another chart for them. say On a roll of a 6, its critical hit that rolls on the damage chart (which mostly would work the same) but then fix explosion into deals additional wounds (D3 maybe)

Fixing Dreadnoughts
AV 12/12/11, 3 HP
WS5/BS4/I4/A3 base
Move Through Cover, Hammer of Wrath D3, Smash
6+ Invulnerable Save
Even in Death I Serve: If a Dreadnought is reduced to 0HP (not as the result of an Explodes! Result), roll a D6. On a 3+ the hit is ignored as the Dreadnought goes into a frenzy. It may act as normal during your next turn. At the end of your next turn, it becomes a Wreck

All vehicles, including dreadnaughts, may split fire.

We don't use hull points though.

Crossposted from the "Monstrous Creatures Damage Table" thread:

How a single, brutal table that brings vehicles, monsters, and multi-wound models all in line:

1 - Drive on: No additional effects.
2 - Shaken: The model is reduced to WS:1, BS:1 until the end of its next turn.
3 - Stunned: The model may neither move nor attack until the end of its next turn. Exception: a Zooming Flyer must move exactly 18" in a straight line without turning.
4 - Disarmed: The model loses one weapon, item of wargear, special rule, or attack of the enemy player's choice.
5 - Immobilized. The model may not move for the rest of the game. If already immobilized, the model loses an additional Wound/Hull Point. A Flying Monstrous Creature is grounded. A vehicle Flyer Crashes and Burns. [Note: A little nerf to flyers here -- more than justified!]
6 - Critical: The model loses an additional Wound and rolls on this table again.

PS: Glancing hits don't exist in my universe -- if you score equal to AV, nothing happens.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Crossposted from the "Monstrous Creatures Damage Table" thread:

How a single, brutal table that brings vehicles, monsters, and multi-wound models all in line:

1 - Drive on: No additional effects.
2 - Shaken: The model is reduced to WS:1, BS:1 until the end of its next turn.
3 - Stunned: The model may neither move nor attack until the end of its next turn. Exception: a Zooming Flyer must move exactly 18" in a straight line without turning.
4 - Disarmed: The model loses one weapon, item of wargear, special rule, or attack of the enemy player's choice.
5 - Immobilized. The model may not move for the rest of the game. If already immobilized, the model loses an additional Wound/Hull Point. A Flying Monstrous Creature is grounded. A vehicle Flyer Crashes and Burns. [Note: A little nerf to flyers here -- more than justified!]
6 - Critical: The model loses an additional Wound and rolls on this table again.

PS: Glancing hits don't exist in my universe -- if you score equal to AV, nothing happens.

Plz yes.

Rly Plz, GW.


(not jking)

 SisterSydney wrote:
Instead of adding yet another fething die roll to this game, how about we get rid of glancing hits altogether? You penetrate the armor or nothing happens

Well, there goes necron's only real way of dealing with vehicles at range.
There's a reason why they don't have that much dedicated AT compared to other armies.

I'm not saying get rid of hull points -- I think they're fine -- but just to make glancing hits go away, i.e. IF penetration roll = AV, THEN no effect.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm not saying get rid of hull points -- I think they're fine -- but just to make glancing hits go away, i.e. IF penetration roll = AV, THEN no effect.

Yes, but the Gauss rule causes glancing hits on a 6. That's the wording

Though to be honest, I never quite understood the concept of glancing. If it's glancing, it didn't really damage the tank that much, did it? Maybe scratch it, but not enough to actually do anything.
Maybe I'm just visualizing it wrong.

Ah. So you'd just need to rewrite Gauss, then. "On a to-hit roll of 6, target loses a Hull Point." Ta da!

I don't like the disarmed result. It should be randomized and should only apply to weapons/wargear.

I'd say an extra 1D3 wounds/hull points for the critical wound.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Crossposted from the "Monstrous Creatures Damage Table" thread:

How a single, brutal table that brings vehicles, monsters, and multi-wound models all in line:

1 - Drive on: No additional effects.
2 - Shaken: The model is reduced to WS:1, BS:1 until the end of its next turn.
3 - Stunned: The model may neither move nor attack until the end of its next turn. Exception: a Zooming Flyer must move exactly 18" in a straight line without turning.
4 - Disarmed: The model loses one weapon, item of wargear, special rule, or attack of the enemy player's choice.
5 - Immobilized. The model may not move for the rest of the game. If already immobilized, the model loses an additional Wound/Hull Point. A Flying Monstrous Creature is grounded. A vehicle Flyer Crashes and Burns. [Note: A little nerf to flyers here -- more than justified!]
6 - Critical: The model loses an additional Wound and rolls on this table again.

PS: Glancing hits don't exist in my universe -- if you score equal to AV, nothing happens.

Dreadnoughts are veterans of thousands of campaigns, Bjorn was alive at the same time as leman Russ and knew him personally. Walker rules are fine we don't need an enormous fix or rewrite of the entire rule book. Only veteran marines who's lives are worth preserving become a dreadnought yet although the fluff gifts them with eons of experience when it comes to the crunch we have a standard marine statline except with 2 attacks. When I rise to power those of so little imagination will be purged as heretics.

Veteran of countless wars
A dreadnought is a veteran of a thousand battles, only those of great standing are consent to exist as such.
When a dreadnought is bought choose one of the following

Marksman (a true sharpshooter lies within his shots finds all marks)
The dreadnought and all friendly models in 6inches gain prefered enemy.

Champion ( inside the sarcophagus lies the remains of a great warrior)
The dreadnought gains the rampage special rule friendly models in the same combat as the dreadnought gain hatred. Also he is treated as a character for the purposes of challenges.

Librarian ( although weakened by his ordeal, the mind of this psyker is still formidable)
The dreadnought gains the psychic pilot special rule and is treated as a mastery level 1 psyker. He also gets a psychic hood



Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS monsterous creatures have weaknesses.
Can be poisoned.
Are not immune to small arms with some exceptions
Flying monsters have to take grounding tests.
Have to use smash to break vehicles. Dreadnought cc weapons have us striking at s10 without halveing attacks.
Can't be fixed up with techmarines and the like.
Are often over costed. Riptides and wraith knights are 200+ points. 100 pt dread don't seem to bad, though still needs a points cut or extra rules.

I like the customizable Dreadnaughts, made unique not by their weapons load-out but by the man inside.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
As much as I hate it, it's an all-too-common thing in 40k to slap "Monstrous Creature" on something that is neither monstrous nor a creature simply because the rules are good, so it wouldn't be a new thing. Dreadknights and Riptides come to mind.

I hate it because it doesn't make any sense. How come a Riptide can be poisoned and is immune to Haywire, etc? Why does a Riptide's pilot have "more soul" than a Fire Warrior (for things like Spirit Leech)? Of course, this is hardly unique to not-Monstrous-not-Creatures Monstrous Creatures; Necrons, for example, can be poisoned/sickened/feel pain/etc. Still.

Well one unit that should be made a monsterpus creature is a soul grinder, they deserve it much more than a dreadknight or riptide.

 Desubot wrote:
"hits rear"

Honestly i though it was justified in that the models are actually climbing all over the place punching out lenses and jamming grenades into places that dont belong.

This is what you could do on the first and early second world war tanks, but this glaring design error was quickly fixed after the umpteenth expensive tank was destroyed by an infantry-man with a tank of gasoline.

Maybe you can do this with Imperial tanks, but there aren't all that many places you can do it on xeno tanks (unless they are fairly stupid). It's hard enough actually getting up ontop of a tank and when you are there you run into problems. The only places which aren't hermetically sealed are places with movable parts such as the turret - and good luck sticking something on there. Speaking of the turret, it's moving and a half-experienced crew would be able to sweep climbers off so that it wouldn't be easy. Then you say "hang on, I'll chuck this grenade into the barrel!" to which I say "welcome to co-axially mounted machineguns!".

Actually, I recon that the easiest and safest way to deal with tanks in melee in the 41st millenium would be to stick melta or krak charges on whichever point of hull you get in contact with and hope for the best. I mean, even being able to melee a Blood Angels Rhino, let alone a Dark Eldar Raider, that's travelling at speed is a fairly dumb concept. I can buy that you're able to use a grenade on a stationary vehicle to some effect, maybe even current effect, but once it's moved >6" then you shouldn't be able to melee it at all without special equipment (jump pack).

Non-serious homework: try attaching a frag grenade onto the rear of a truck on the Autobahn. Then imagine doing it to a semi-aircraft hovering 1m above ground level travelling over three times as fast (also, this semi-aircraft is equipped with anti-infantry countermeasures).

 SisterSydney wrote:
I like the customizable Dreadnaughts, made unique not by their weapons load-out but by the man inside.

separating the marines from the savages (hellbrutes)