Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The amount of times I see it claimed that Orks are based on BRITISH football hooligans disgusts me. Based on football hooligans fine but why claim BRITISH football hooligans? In Britain fans are banned for the sniff of hooliganism nowadays. We have the Kick it Out campaign against racism. The FA and premier league gives the longest bans compared to any other country when a violent or offensive act is committed on the pitch. And any hooliganism that is committed is highlighted massively by the news as disgusting and pounced on by police.
Compare this with Italys proffessional hooligan chains, Spains racist monkey chants, Turkeys shanking and murder of rival fans, Eastern Europes football gangs and ingrained racism from the stands. Many occassions in the last few years british players have had abhorrent racism directed at them, innocent british fans (talking families, children and the elderly) have been attacked whilst at european away games and some british fans have even been stabbed. If it was a British club that did these things, all scottish or english clubs would be banned from european competition for years, but Platini and UEFA just look the other way when it is anyone else.
Now im not at all claiming these nationalities themselves are more racist/xenophibic in general. What im highlighting is that britain in the modern day is known for the good behaviour of its away fans with very few exceptions, yet medias jump on the british fans whan a foot is put out of step, whilst in the media other european countries fans can get away with murder... literally.
Get your stereotypes out of the '70s and '80s and realise that the british clubs, fans bodies, and the FA are the ones most committed in the world to stomping out racism and hooliganism everywhere, and for the last couple of decades these things have been rarer in britain than in most other european countries.
Rant over. Thank you.

They're just a funny take on a stereotype, not a criticism of British people.

You probably shouldn't take it so seriously.

I think its beacuse its a British game and when it came out the match fitted?

Agreed that many nations were and are worse but then as you correctly say other countries just get away - especially in Europe - good job we are one big community - not.

Ever been to a Milwall game?

Its not the 'orks' issue. Im just fed up of the rest of the world assuming we have the worst fans in respect to hooliganism when we actually have some of the best. As a british football fan it annoys me and whats more irritating is its even brought up on a site which is the furthest thing away from football that you can imagine. Europe needs to take a look at itself before always criticising the british fans. Seeing the comments about the orks just gave me oppertunity to vent after having this... debate... last night with a european.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Millwall is the one exception. Even then it is more of a stereotype than reality, but yes they have the only remaining 'out' british hooligan firm. Im a Leeds fan and we apperently have our fair share of hooligans. Go to Ellend Road - you'll see its a load of b*llocks (the hooligan claim, not ellend road)!

I'm a Liverpool fan, we have the best fans around, but bear in mind, when Orks were written, they were more comical, they were basically drunk yobs looking for a scrap after the match. Think comical hooliganism, not stabbings at the derby.

Because Rogue trader (the first edition of 40k) was designed and written in the UK in 1986-87.

It's obvious that the main inspiration for the creators would be what was happening around them at the time, not what was happening 20 years in the future, elsewhere in Europe.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its not the 'orks' issue. Im just fed up of the rest of the world assuming we have the worst fans in respect to hooliganism when we actually have some of the best. As a british football fan it annoys me and whats more irritating is its even brought up on a site which is the furthest thing away from football that you can imagine. Europe needs to take a look at itself before always criticising the british fans. Seeing the comments about the orks just gave me oppertunity to vent after having this... debate... last night with a european.

Okay. but that's not really 40K related. This'd probably be better off in the Off-topic forum.

 Gorechild wrote:
Because Rogue trader (the first edition of 40k) was designed and written in the UK in 1986-87.

It's obvious that the main inspiration for the creators would be what was happening around them at the time, not what was happening 20 years in the future, elsewhere in Europe.

Plus of course the Orks in Tolkein who are pretty similar

It's almost as if Orks were designed in the 80s, when football wasn't the lovely and passive sport we all know and love?!

seriously, speaking from (second hand?) experience, 60s 70s and 80s football was rough as balls, and lumping all european countries clubs together as racist is a surefire way to piss some people off.

TL;DR: get over it please, they were made at a time where the writers only knew of the exploits of british thugs.

Looks pretty accurate to me.

Because associating hooliganism with only the British is ok? Besides I didnt lump them all together. I merely pointed out that Italy has proffessional hooligan firms, which it does. That spanish fans have used monkey chants, which they have. That certain turkish teams fans have murdered opposing fans, which they have. And that many eastern european football hooligans have gang connections, which they do. I have not once said all italian, spanish, turkish or eastern european fans are like this, or even a significant proportion. That would be as bad as assaociating the british with something, like, say, hooliganism.
Orks were actually invented long before Rogue Trader and the 80's. And it is that people keep refering to hooligans as British which is the irritation! That being said - The british were not the only or even the worst offenders during the 70s and 80s so I doubt they were the only ones the writers were aware of, therefore it is the fans who have decided where the influence has come from and has heaved unfair sterotypes onto it .
It keeps being brought up as ork background so it is not me which decided labelling only british fans hooligans and thus opening it to discussion, should be in the background forum.
But you're right Inky. I apologise that me being offended has offended you.

Offense is like a horrible circle, sooner or later someone's gonna bring racism/feminism into this and then it'll really kick off huehuehuehue, gettid?

But it's stayed like that, focused on british thugs as like it or not, that was (and to a lesser extent, is) a part of our culture. Thought up by a bunch of british blokes when it was prevalent, and it proved to be a good idea. Plus it's much easier to do a entertaining thuggy british accent. And it's easier for British and 'merican players to relate to.

When you think about it, most factions are based on stereotypes that, if delved too deep into, could cause offence.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Looks pretty accurate to me.

Ha! Laughed pretty hard. Love that film.

Just noticed, I don't think that that French guy is even wearing a football shirt, is he? Oh, I notice some new funny thing in that film every time I watch it.

Fair point. I just get really wound up that we still have this stereotype sticking to us to this day and suffer because of it. It was only a few years ago that a few british hooligans did indeed go mental in Spain smashing up a bar and Platini talked of banning british clubs as a whole from european competition if it happened again. This was despite the fact in the same year Italian fans had assaulted Man U families at an away game and the Spanish national fans had directed a huge amount of racist abuse at black english players during an international match, not to mention the 2 european games that had to be called off due to flares and a ref being knocked unconcious due to a projectile. None of these situations however raised UEFAs ire. I just find stereotypes like this, mentioned matter of factly as if they are true representations, really do damage british fans reputation in a hugely unfair way and should be addressed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its like eurotrip ^. Thats fair enough because its done in an over the top comedic way which makes it obvious that it is basing itself on ridiculous stereotypes. The problem is when people state it as matter of fact that increases the prejudice against british football fans.

I look at Orks and then remember not to take my kids to the football. Disgusting behaviour!

The British firms used to be insane...

Have a bit of a google, and you'll see why. During the 80s there was a lot of discontent within that demographic anyway, and the hooligan culture was ridiculous. It's different these days, but when people say that Orks were based on british football hooligans, they mean from the 80s, not present day.

I look at an ork. I look at a football hooligan (of any nationality). The only difference is the one is completely sadistic and attacks people for no significant reason. And the other one is an ork

Rory1432 wrote:
I look at an ork. I look at a football hooligan (of any nationality). The only difference is the one is completely sadistic and attacks people for no significant reason. And the other one is an ork

British Football Hooligans give Orks a bad name.

Thats fine if its stated as such. I know quite a lot of detail on 70's and 80's british culture including the violent and excessive nature of the British firms. Not through personal experiance admittedly but due to it being a module (late 20th century british culture) when I did my history degree. So Im aware that the British yobs disgraced the name of football (along with foreign hooligans), Its just annoying that this stereotype is continued to be applied to present day fans from anyone outside of britain.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Thats fine if its stated as such. I know quite a lot of detail on 70's and 80's british culture including the violent and excessive nature of the British firms. Not through personal experiance admittedly but due to it being a module (late 20th century british culture) when I did my history degree. So Im aware that the British yobs disgraced the name of football (along with foreign hooligans), Its just annoying that this stereotype is continued to be applied to present day fans from anyone outside of britain.

And this is something for OT - if you feel that strongly - And nothing to do with poor defenceless non firm affiliated Orks.

IMO the sterotype is something you are looking far too deeply for.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Looks pretty accurate to me.

Eurotrip is a great film

Fair enough case closed.

I've viewed them as Barbarian/Sterotypic Viking/American Football Fanatic/Wrestling Fanatic

Better not tell him about the Margaret Thatcher Ork.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Better not tell him about the Margaret Thatcher Ork.

Mag Uruk Thrakka!

Rory1432 wrote:
I look at an ork. I look at a football hooligan (of any nationality). The only difference is the one is completely sadistic and attacks people for no significant reason. And the other one is an ork

Ok, that made me chuckle. Exalt for you

Tbh, when I first saw Orks, I thought they were making fun of chavs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Rory1432 wrote:
I look at an ork. I look at a football hooligan (of any nationality). The only difference is the one is completely sadistic and attacks people for no significant reason. And the other one is an ork

Ok, that made me chuckle. Exalt for you

Tbh, when I first saw Orks, I thought they were making fun of chavs.

No, orks are much better at words.


Orks created dakka. Chavs created an abbreviation for "is it not"

I don't get it, what is the abbreviation of is it not?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't get it, what is the abbreviation of is it not?

It's a hard thing to know, innit