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We all know the story. The Dark Apostle clocks in at 105 points, the same points cost as a similarly equipped Chaos Lord. However, the Apostle trades 1 WS, 1 BS, 1W, 1I and 1A and sacrifices a ton of wargear options for Beseech the Dark Gods, Demagogue and Hatred, which is a rather bad bargain. Had Accursed Croziuses been Thunder Hammers (perhaps even at initiative!) it would perhaps have been a different matter, but as it stands the general consensus is that you only take a Dark Apostle if fluff demands it, otherwise a Lord beats the DA at its own job and then some.

Codexes shouldn't have poor choices nobody takes. Dark Apostles should be useful choices. Question is, how? A reduction in points cost? Had they been, say, 20 points cheaper they would have been the ideal cheap HQ and assault buffer.

A more intriguing proposition, perhaps, would be to give them an ability with precedent in the fluff. In the Word Bearers trilogy, Marduk summons daemons from the warp, Daemonancy being a power Dark Apostles have.

What if they had...

Daemonancy

Once per game, the Dark Apostle can attempt to summon Daemons from the warp. In the movement phase, instead of moving, the controlling player can have the Dark Apostle perform a dark ritual to weaken the veil between the Materium and the Immaterium. If you choose to do so, make a leadership test. If it passes, one unit containing D3+3 daemons arrive from the Warp via deep strike and can be placed anywhere on the board as per the normal rules for deep striking units. If the roll fails, the Dark Apostle immediately takes one wound with no armour saves allowed and the ignores cover special rule.

The daemons summoned can be Bloodletters of Khorne, Daemonettes of Slaanesh, Plaguebearers of Nurgle or Pink Horrors of Tzeentch. The summoned Daemons count as scoring units for the remainder of the game. An undivided Dark Apostle chooses which kind of Daemon he wants to summon, whereas a marked Dark Apostle can only summon Daemons of his God (A Dark Apostle with the Mark of Tzeentch can only summon Pink Horrors of Tzeentch etc).

Overpowered?

Another option would be to give them some kind of mind control ability, capitalising on their rethorical skills. The Telepathy power Puppet master is the prerogative of Chaos Sorcerers though, but since the Dark Gods grant Dark Apostles visions, make them Lv1 psykers with access to Divination, to the envy of Chaos Sorcerers everywhere.

I like this. gives me a reason to use mine.

As it stands, they need an ace in the hole to compete with better choices in the codex. Chaplains in general need this. They're typically outshone by other HQ in their codexes, unless I'm horribly mistaken Wolf Priests are only reasonably competitive in an outflanking Land Raider crusader with 15 Bloodclaws etc.

I don't think this is OP. If anything I'd make it D6+3
4-6 daemons isn't going to do much in the scheme of things... Especially at the potential cost of a wound.
I think psychic powers (especially divination!) would make them too much of an auto-include though...
I also think it should be noted that daemons don't count as scoring units, maybe there's already a rule for summoned units in the BRB to that effect

Just summoning demons would be cool.

 Rasclomalum wrote:
As it stands, they need an ace in the hole to compete with better choices in the codex. Chaplains in general need this. They're typically outshone by other HQ in their codexes, unless I'm horribly mistaken Wolf Priests are only reasonably competitive in an outflanking Land Raider crusader with 15 Bloodclaws etc.

yeah I think the only dex w chaplains right is BA. The chaplain/DC combo giving the re-rolls for all failed hit and wound rolls is great

 Brother Payne wrote:
I don't think this is OP. If anything I'd make it D6+3
4-6 daemons isn't going to do much in the scheme of things... Especially at the potential cost of a wound.

In that case we might as well make it D6+4 and have the potential to summon a full squad. A potential 10 Daemonettes in your backfield would be a damn nuisance to deal with.

I think psychic powers (especially divination!) would make them too much of an auto-include though...

True enough. The preferred strategy then would be to sit them with Havocs behind an aegis, just like the Wolves do with their Rune Priests.

I also think it should be noted that daemons don't count as scoring units, maybe there's already a rule for summoned units in the BRB to that effect

Indeed. My bad. It would perhaps be overpowered if we could just teleport in a unit of Plaguebearers to more or less autoclaim an objective at the end of the game.

... still drooling over the oddball Thunder Hammer at initiative idea for the Accursed Crozius, but then I've always wanted a mini-Sauron in my army.

and make him get buffs if there is atleast one full strength (35) cultist squad within 12"

EyeOfDC wrote:
and make him get buffs if there is atleast one full strength (35) cultist squad within 12"

To this I say:

1) Cultists should come in boxes of at least 10, be a regular plastic kit with close combat weapons, autopistols, shotguns, autoguns, flamers and heavy stubbers, and look like the Heretics from Dawn of War II.

2) Just like in DoWII, cultists should have the ability to worship at shrines to buff your army.

^ That and a plastic hellbrute kit seeing as it is the chaos dreadnaught.

All they need to do is make an upgrade sprue for venerable dreadnoughts and we'd be set.

I like this, but as an aside, how about letting the apostle grant a single unit within 12" of him a choice of USR's, for example:

Fleet, Furious Charge, IWND, Rage

as long as they have the Daemon special rule?

Thinking about a nice unit of Nurgle Obliterators with IWND......

Well, it's either improving his combat ability (thinking about Eliphas' huge mauls in DoW2 - Retribution here, I'm serious about that thunder hammer). That, or capitalising on his buffing role, which the Daemonancy definitely would.

Your suggestion is interesting and could be what Possessed need to be fieldable.

Hell, give him and his unit the ability to assault out of a Rhino and one of the most glaring holes in C:CSM would be filled.

The ability to take their chosen gods mount always baffled me "I am your most devoted subject but not allowed on any of the fun rides in the chaos amusement park"

Along this line, I want dark apostles and warpsmiths to be able to take bikes, jump packs and terminator armour too (although the smith doesn't need termi armour as he has fleshmetal).

Oh yeah sorry forgot about those three, a terminator armoured apostle would leave gorgeous opportunities for conversions

True, they lack wargear options. They're supposed to be the individuals most favoured by the Dark Gods, if they want a suit of terminator armour from the armoury they WILL GET IT. I know the fluff behind the Crozius, but why must it be a Power Maul? The +2S is nice but the AP4 hurts in most scenarios where you truly need it, like challenges. Sure, it can smash Ork Boyz left and right but once that mega-armoured Warboss shows up to challenge you the AP4 just bounces off and then the Power Klaw instagibs you.

I'm not saying they should be on par with Chaos Lords in melee, but being worth their points is a reasonable thing. What with their weaker statline, it would hardly be unbalanced to give them a nastier weapon.

Ceann Fine wrote:
The [in]ability to take their chosen gods mount always baffled me "I am your most devoted subject but not allowed on any of the fun rides in the chaos amusement park"

Ha! Exalted.

I'm not as up on chaos lore as most folks in this thread, but I get the impression that Apostles are associated with cultists more than with traitor marines, which would suggest fewer wargear buffs and more daemon-summoning and cultist-buffing.

I love the summoning idea. Make it D6+4 daemons and provide an optional "generic" daemon profile for people without the Daemon codex, and limit them to appearing within 12" of him (with no scattering), more akin to the old summoning rules.

I think that alone would be a sufficient buff that I'd take one most games. He isn't a close combat monster, he's a mini-Tervigon instead.

Alternatively (or in addition if you still aren't sold on him with just the summoning) you could steal a page from Forgeworld's playbook and give the Accursed Crozius the Instant Death special rule, like the Word Bearer's Tainted Weapons. He's still not anything like a reliable beatstick but he will pose more of a threat to MCs and other ICs.

You draw much inspiration from Dawn of War II. I like that. Dawn of War II did Chaos right.

(Dawn of War II stats for comparison

Guardsman: 100 HP, infantry armour (No special resistances), 2 DPS melee, 4.12 DPS ranged

Chaos Space Marine: 325 HP, heavy infantry armour (33% less damage taken from small arms fire) + melee resistance aura (-40% melee damage taken), 22 DPS melee, 13.42 DPS ranged)

Mfufufufufufu

*Cough* Sorry, I nerded out a bit there. I know faaaar to many DoWII mechanics.

On-topic, I like your thunder hammer at initiative idea. It's not like it is OP on a WS5 A2 model. Would allow him to actually beat a Nob in a challenge, as well, instead of being gibbed.

Warpsmiths need fixing, as well. Maybe allow him to reduce the cover saves of enemy fortifications?

SisterSydney wrote:

Ceann Fine wrote:
The [in]ability to take their chosen gods mount always baffled me "I am your most devoted subject but not allowed on any of the fun rides in the chaos amusement park"

Ha! Exalted.

I'm not as up on chaos lore as most folks in this thread, but I get the impression that Apostles are associated with cultists more than with traitor marines, which would suggest fewer wargear buffs and more daemon-summoning and cultist-buffing.

That's what they currently are rulewise. Fluffwise they are the leaders of traitor marines first and foremost.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I love the summoning idea. Make it D6+4 daemons and provide an optional "generic" daemon profile for people without the Daemon codex, and limit them to appearing within 12" of him (with no scattering), more akin to the old summoning rules.

I think that alone would be a sufficient buff that I'd take one most games. He isn't a close combat monster, he's a mini-Tervigon instead.

Alternatively (or in addition if you still aren't sold on him with just the summoning) you could steal a page from Forgeworld's playbook and give the Accursed Crozius the Instant Death special rule, like the Word Bearer's Tainted Weapons. He's still not anything like a reliable beatstick but he will pose more of a threat to MCs and other ICs.

It's probably the best thing if we want him to fulfill a unique role that is still competitive. The Lord is the designated beatstick and should so remain. One could perhaps consider making the Crozius +2S Concussive AP3 or even AP2 (with two-handed to offset) but I do not know about that, might be delving into cheese territory. So is treating all transports as assault vehicles, would make them far too auto-include for my liking. Oh, I personally would LOVE it, but that's because I have a hard-on for Dark Apostles and that's what leads to power creep.

Daemonancy seems to be where it's at.

Creating and directing Cultist horde is one thing Apostles frequently do, but it is true that they are a Chaos Marine above all, and like to hang out with other Chaos Marines.

Maybe even give him and the Sorcerer their own disciplines, Daemonancy?

I don't believe the Warpsmith does have fleshmetal. I believe only Mutilators and Obliterators can claim that.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I don't believe the Warpsmith does have fleshmetal. I believe only Mutilators and Obliterators can claim that.

I think he actually has Techmarine style (Though Chaosified) Artificier Armour, and that GW just could not be arsed adding another armour category just for him.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Maybe even give him and the Sorcerer their own disciplines, Daemonancy?

Probably better make it the exclusive prerogative of the Dark Apostle then, if both have it then people would just take the Sorcerer (because then you could take Daemonancy AND Biomancy/Telepathy).

[Rant]
I often see tension between "competitive" and "fluffy" players, and I believe much of this stems from internal unbalancing within the Codexes. That units should have different roles is a given, that some are more cost-efficient than others inavoidable, but I dislike it when a unit - invariably one that has rule of cool running out of its ears and is iconic to the franchise - is a huge letdown on the table and laughably worse than other choices in its section. Chaos Helbrutes, or Dreadnoughts in general? Huge, hulking walkers with awesome weaponry , exalted heroes of legions loyal and infernal - I mean, just look at the Dread in this video go to town on some advancing Orks - they're machines of pure unadulterated testosterone, yet you see few lists taking them. For Chaos, it's as if though the Hellbrute didn't exist. Hence you get two camps. Those who (quite sensibly, since this is a game and the object is winning) take the most competitive options and don't bother with the filler, and those who struggle to make the backstories of their warbands work with the rules. It gets in the way of fun.

All I'm saying is that when you look at the HQ section, the Chaos Lord shouldn't be auto-include. The Sorcerer, the Warpsmith, the Dark Apostle - they should all be viable choices.
[/rant]

In thi case, I think it's more that the chaos lord is woefully underpriced compared to the other options.

They are cheap indeed. Compare him to a Wolf Lord, with whom you really have to struggle to keep under 200 points. Granted, the Wolf Lord has even more wargear options available to him and has, I think, an additional attack, but Chaos Lords are very cheap for what they do. Between that and the Master of Traitors rule for marked Lords, not taking one is bordering on insanity. And herein lies the problem, I like the idea of variety, if other HQ options exist beside the Lord they should be viable choices, not necessarily on par with a Nurgle Biker Lord with Fisticlaws in terms of killiness but you know... other things to make up for it would be nice.

Dark Apostles should be reduced to about 90 points base instead of 105. That, or give them 3 wounds. The reason regular chaplains are a joke in regular ol' Astartes armies is larely due to the 2 wounds only thing, too. I can't find a reason to bring a Dark Apostle over a Sorcerer, because those psychic powers are going to put him over the edge on an apostile in pretty much any circumstance ever. I run Dark Angels and love my Interrogator-Chaplains who are essentially -1 WS captains with zealot for +20 points. That 3rd wound on him makes all the difference.

Also, the fact they can't take any of the fun wargear options is dumb. I should have the option to take a Nurgle Dark Apostle on a Palanquin, because fluff-wise it'd be so fitting and modeling-wise, it'd be really awesome to have a fat pestulant preacher being hoisted around on a sea of Nurglings. I can't figure a reason a Dark Apostle of Tzeentch doesn't hover around in battle on a Disc, either. Those god-beasts would be a huge benefit for any Dark Apostle you could bring because it'd give them the mobility they are sorely lacking, more attacks/more wounds depending.

Right now, Dark Apostles are never warlord HQ units. They make decent backup HQ guys to buff your main kill HQ Chaos Lord, though. Running one alongside a Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury is pretty awesome, for example, simply because giving your Warlord guaranteed Hatred when he drops his WS down is nightmarishly powerful. Allowing re-rolls on the Chaos Boons table is pretty handy too simply because I have lost more games because my Warlord turned into a Chaos Spawn than I care to remember.

Extending the LD bubble to 12 inces would be nice. Other than that I suggest a conversion ability that allows you to turn your enemies to chaos, fits with the fluff. However such an ability would need to be well thought out otherwise we create the next breed of helldrake. Off topic who is for making the baleflamer ap 4 and twinlinked? Still fills the same role and doesn't generate as much hate?

Personally I'd say rework the entire saves system, especially when it comes to armor value (tanks, you know) and armor penetration values.