Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/10/28 03:17:05
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Sinful Hero wrote: Probably depends a lot on your tables- is there a lot of area terrain for mooks to hide in? It's also a little bit of personal preference. And jetbikes. Ignores cover eats them alive.
Mind if I ask why Hormagaunts over Gargoyles? They have a better IB, a gun, blind/poison attack, and can move much faster. Not to mention just two or three per warrior works as mobile cover. Granted, hormagaunts can do the cover thing as well.
Basically, I get 2 extra wounds if I go Hormagants rather than Gargoyles. It was a tossup.
2014/10/28 03:23:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Mind if I ask why Hormagaunts over Gargoyles? They have a better IB, a gun, blind/poison attack, and can move much faster. Not to mention just two or three per warrior works as mobile cover. Granted, hormagaunts can do the cover thing as well.
In kill teams IB: Feed is actually better, as each model counts as its own squad. Thus, all results are automatically upgraded to "Devour" (must assault if possible, no run) which is less debilitating than self-pinning (can't do anything but snap-shoot).
tag8833 wrote: I ran my little RTT on Saturday. Since I was TO and Judge I didn't get to play. Thankfully, we are rotating TO duties and so I get to play the next one. The winning list was Space Wolves Drop Pods with Sentinals of Terra Grav Centurions in them. Specifically:
Spoiler:
CAD (Space Wolves):
Rune Priest
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
I understand completely how this list beat the Tau gunline for 1st overall, but my opinion is that I would generally roll this list easily. The Centurions come in and Alpha Strike hard, but without hit and run / Ignore Cover / GOI / or Levitate (he was rolling for it, but just 1 dice), I can just send over some Gargoyles / Gants to babysit them for 5 turns while I kill everything else. Is there any hidden threat that I'm not seeing here? 15 TL(prescience) Grav Shots are still only going to hit a flier 4.58 times, and even if they wound, I still cover save / jink away 1/2 of them. Between 2/3+ cover and FNP, my Barbed Heirodule would even survive long enough to get the tarpits in place.
Don't under-estimate the list. Drop pod armies are very good in tournament play, especially if the tournament incorporate Maelstrom objectives in it like the BAO does. Because it's not just 5 units of marines you have to go through. It's 12 ObSec units and 4 other units that you have to go through. They beat you by controlling all the objectives with mostly ObSec units and then you are fighting from behind because you are the one who needs to get them off the objectives (+5 ObSec drop pods). This type of army throws a monkey wrench into my Positional Dominance theory because they're not as affected by positioning as most other armies - they're already on objectives and it's not easy to take them off. If centurions can take out your flyrants on T1, then it doesn't matter if they get locked in combat, they've already done their job and taken out your most mobile unit. Then they will be controlling the Movement phase and your army will have trouble reaching the other objectives.
I have to say the Toxicrene looks a lot cooler than it did in the first pic (especially if it actually comes with a blood angel to curb stomp lol). May just have to get that bad boy even if the rules are lackluster. I am definitely GW's favorite kind of sucker
Agreed. The toxicrene looks way cool and I'd get it just because it's purdy.
The maleceptor, on the other hand, just looks plain stupid.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/28 05:56:32
...without going into detail, that was probably the most upsetting game I've ever had.
Assasins are upsettingly good...
First turn I lost my LAN and a hive crone to the Caladis and orbital bombardment.
second turn I lost the Malanthrope and the Dima to the Culexus.
third turn I just lost the enthusiasm to carry on playing. ( I lie, I lost it after turn one!)
half way through turn 4, all I had left was 1 Flyrant and 2 ripper swarms left. I have never been beaten that badly - I don't know if it's because the assassins caught me off guard and so I freaked out or if they really are that good. either way, I played awfully and they are extremely good.
Any pointers on how to deal with these!? they all infiltrate as well. mental!
Yeah, space marines are no joke. They are much, much improved in this edition and Assassins are really damn good. The assassins are also really easily under-estimated, at least for the very first they when you face them. Basically, you need to get walloped by them at least once to gain the experience on how to play against them. Against the callidus, bubble-wrapping helps a lot. That's the reason I try to take a large squad of gargoyles in my army for these types of armies (drop pods and units like the callidus). Against the culexus, you need to make sure your units are in range of the malanthropes/venomthropes. Against the vindicare, well, he isn't as effective against Tyranids as he is against mech armies but he is still annoying. Finally the eversore is a close-combat beast who is meant to take on small to medium sized/threat units. And then there is the rest of the Space Marine army with scouting grav bikes and all their shooting. This is an example of a Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) space marine army that can put a lot of pressure against the opposing army.
Against them, I would recommend:
1) You want to go 1st against these types of alpha-strike armies. That will really screw up their infiltrating/scouting plans.
2) The bastion really helps against alpha-striking armies like these. It will keep your malan/venom alive, which in turn will keep the rest of your army alive. If you don't protect your shroud-buffer, it becomes like a domino effect. Once he falls, so too will the rest of your army. Also, with the bastion you can take the Comms Relay. That will help if you want to go mainly reserves with your army.
3) A bubble-wrapping unit will also be very useful against these types of armies, both as a buffer and to give your big guys cover. That's one of the reasons why I try to have 1 large unit of gargoyles in my army if I am not running Skyblight. It is also a reason why tervigons + termagants aren't as bad as most would think.
4) Place your "core" in a corner and the objectives away from it. Reserve non-mobile units like the dimachaeron. Basically, this "core" will act as a decoy. As he drops 2-3 units there to try to take them out (in the hopes of tabling you on T1), you then abandon it and now his 20-30 marines are way out of position and away from the objectives. Just make sure whatever is there can survive his alpha-strike. You'd probably have to give up your malanthrope (who will be part of the core), but once he goes for the decoy, then you really don't need the protection of the malan anymore. Then redirect the rest of your army towards the other objectives that are less protected and them mop up on the troops there.
5) It is VERY important how you place your objectives and how you deploy. Against drop pod armies, spread out the objectives as far away as possible (or at least as far away from where you are planning to deploy as possible). Place at least one near your deployment edge and near some ruins or cover. This way, you can reserve your dima and then have him walk on onto the marines on your objective. Then when you charge him next turn, Smash on your 1st round of combat and then finish off the troops on your opponent's Assault phase.
6) I recommend ignoring the assassins at first and go after the bikes. The culexus is especially annoying as you hit him in shooting/attack as if you are BS1/WS1. And be careful against him in combat as any wound rolls of 6 by him causes Instant Death (against Psykers, any of his wounds causes ID). Go after the bikes to kill his mobility. Flyrants should also go after the stormtalons when they come in.
The maleceptor, on the other hand, just looks plain stupid.
It looks better in this picture. Kinda looks like a cross between a Zoanthrope and a Tyrant Guard to me (I like it personally):
The side view looks better, but I just don't like the front view of the maley with his undersized talons and oversized body. It just kinda makes him look comical to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 06:06:26
tag8833 wrote: I ran my little RTT on Saturday. Since I was TO and Judge I didn't get to play. Thankfully, we are rotating TO duties and so I get to play the next one. The winning list was Space Wolves Drop Pods with Sentinals of Terra Grav Centurions in them. Specifically:
Spoiler:
CAD (Space Wolves):
Rune Priest
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
I understand completely how this list beat the Tau gunline for 1st overall, but my opinion is that I would generally roll this list easily. The Centurions come in and Alpha Strike hard, but without hit and run / Ignore Cover / GOI / or Levitate (he was rolling for it, but just 1 dice), I can just send over some Gargoyles / Gants to babysit them for 5 turns while I kill everything else. Is there any hidden threat that I'm not seeing here? 15 TL(prescience) Grav Shots are still only going to hit a flier 4.58 times, and even if they wound, I still cover save / jink away 1/2 of them. Between 2/3+ cover and FNP, my Barbed Heirodule would even survive long enough to get the tarpits in place.
Don't under-estimate the list. Drop pod armies are very good in tournament play, especially if the tournament incorporate Maelstrom objectives in it like the BAO does. Because it's not just 5 units of marines you have to go through. It's 12 ObSec units and 4 other units that you have to go through. They beat you by controlling all the objectives with mostly ObSec units and then you are fighting from behind because you are the one who needs to get them off the objectives (+5 ObSec drop pods). This type of army throws a monkey wrench into my Positional Dominance theory because they're not as affected by positioning as most other armies - they're already on objectives and it's not easy to take them off. If centurions can take out your flyrants on T1, then it doesn't matter if they get locked in combat, they've already done their job and taken out your most mobile unit. Then they will be controlling the Movement phase and your army will have trouble reaching the other objectives.
If you substitute Sternguard for Centurions, I've played against this list many many times. I admit that 5 OS Drop pods are a problem, and can be quite a challenge scoring early maelstrom points. If they threw the house at them, they could certainly kill a Flyrant with their alpha strike. If I have to take enough saves, I'll fail 4 2+ covers eventually. However, everything that comes in turn 1 will be dead or tarpitted by turn 2. At that point its just a matter of mop up. I could still lose to the OS drop pods, but not very likely.
This looks like a decent drop pod list against many matchups. But against a good Tyranid list with Fliers and screening units it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Also, if you lose more than one Flyrant to this list you are cursed by the dice gods or did something wrong with deployment. Note: if they bring in the drop pods hot to alpha strike you, they are going to have to deploy their drop pods more aggressively and won't be able to castle up on objectives which would probably be their better bet.
With both squads having Prescience (should be able to deny 1), 6 Centurions are making a flyrant take 23.7 saves. With a 2+ cover that means basically they can Kill 1 Flyrant. If you have a void shield they can't even do that much. As a matter of comparison for about 190 fewer points, 2 squads of 10 sterngard can force 22.2 saves, and achieve essentially the same outcome. Plus they get to overwatch and are more difficult to tarpit.
2014/10/28 13:54:00
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
tag8833 wrote: I've got a Kill Team Tourney coming up. I've never played kill team before. 200 Points. No MC's, No fliers, every model for itself. Seems like it will be rough for Tyranids, because shrouded bubbles won't work well.
Does anyone have advice for playing kill team?
I was very surprised how well the Shroud bubble worked when I ran a Venomthrope in killteam game with broodlord and stealers. Being the only time I ever got one in a assault, I was very impressed with the 2+ poision. Also have run a zoanthrope and guant lists that work well. An armorbaned devourer is all the amusing.
2014/10/28 14:12:25
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Warriors are surprisingly good in a KT format as long as you don't over-equip them. Packing in a venomthrope for survivability helps unless the enemy has a missile launcher specialist with the ignores cover USR...
I had high hopes for you!! Tough matchup first opponent too.....It's too bad you landed your Flyrants. I feel like had you not done that you would have had more of a chance.
On a side note, I decided on the list I am going to be bringing for my next 1850 (FW allowed, limited LOW, allies allowed although 2 sources max, and Tyranids can self ally, will be using LVOFAQ and similar LVO mission packet):
CAD DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Malenthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
15 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Allies DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Venomthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Total = 1845
Played a two games using two of the missions in the packet. Lost 6-7 against Fire Cadre Tau with FWHQ, 2 sniper teams, Riptide, and 2 solo fusion suits. Mission was eliminate 3 targets (worth 4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. There were a couple misplays on my part, and a couple misplays by my opponent. Otherwise great guy and cool fluffy list. However, does anyone know how killing an Ethereal counts towards the final point count at the end of a game that doesn't use VP scoring?
Second game was against SM/GK using the Sicarian tank. His list included a Chaplain, Libby, a unit of 6 Terminators, 2 Tac squads with Lascannons, 2 Tac squads in Rhinos with melta, 2 Legion of the Damned with combi-melta, multimelta, and meltagun, the Stormclaw gunship?, and a unit of GK Terminators. I won this game 7-6. It was a mission that involved table quarters + middle circle (4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. Again, my opponent was good guy. We both had our share of luck, including one of my Mawlocs wiping half his HQ terminator unit out turn 2 and denying his Gate of infinity turn 1. He had his Sicarian tank immobilize itself turn 2. Actually, now that I've written the bit about luck, luck was definitely in my favor through that game. Either way, great opponent, awesome list.
Couple thoughts:
Gargoyles, didn't do much. Actually, they didn't do anything except force my opponents to shoot at them, in order to remove the mobile cover unit for my larger units. They almost got to tie up a Riptide game 1.
Double T-fex. Wow. SUPER durable. Given, both my opponents were expecting armor heavy opponents, so the matchups slightly favored me because the lack of AP2 weaponry really hurt them.
Mawlocs are awesome. Enough said.
I could probably find something better to put points into instead of the Gargoyles, but the buffer between drop marines is nice to have...
What do you guys thinks?
With regards to the Ethereal worth 2x VP's, the BAO/LVO plays it (and Warlord traits giving you VP's for slaying other characters or whatnot) that they count towards the Secondary mission. Basically, unless the bonuses pertain directly to the Primary mission itself (i.e. Scouring Fast Attacks, Big Guns Heavy supports), all other bonus VP's from Warlord Traits and/or codex-specific rules count towards the Secondaries.
I think you need to run a larger unit of gargoyles. I'd recommend at least a unit of 20. You can drop 1 unit of rippers (you've got way too many IMO) to fit in more gargoyles. They really are a great utility unit but don't work as well in smaller numbers (unless you are playing recyclable Skyblight gargoyles).
Thanks for the input jy2.
Dropping a ripper unit nets me 8 more Gargoyles. I like the change. Thanks for the suggestion.
One less one and done unit, but a significantly stronger screening unit.
2014/10/28 15:17:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
luke1705 wrote: So I know how everyone is wondering whether or not these new bugs will pan out....just thinking about them got me in the mood to paint some of my Nids. This isn't a finished product by any means yet (and I can't draw my way out of a paper bag so even this is progress) but I thought you guys might like to see a critter that I've been using as a Harpy. Technically modeled for advantage? Sure I guess you could call it that. I call it "modeled for awesome". I'm sure some people will recognize the base model (only cost me $10 more than a harpy too!)
I swear my camera just decides what orientation they'll be on a whim.
Look at you, painting miniatures and stuff!
Very nice, I like it.
For the greater glory of the Zoat Empire!
2014/10/28 17:03:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Iechine wrote: Ill order the Toxicrene/maleceptor kit on Saturday. I bought a Haruspex on looks alone, so this is nothing new.
To be fair, I do like the sound of instant death on our weapons, its the 12" range that is unfortunate. Also the ID from S10 weapons.
Does set a nice precedent. And allegedly they both are toughness 6. The Toxicrene is supposed to be strength 5 but who cares when it wounds on a 2+ always, often a re-rollable one? I probably will have to get the kit for looks and because what it is SUPPOSED to do really is my style. Whether it does or not is another thing entirely, but ill always give Cthulhu the benefit of the doubt. Because you must
2014/10/28 20:24:27
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Hope for a formation in the BA/nids campaign book giving the toxfex fleet, or shrouded bubble. Otherwise why would you ever use them in a serious game?
The brain bug there is no helping.
Model for the toxic avenger is pretty sick, and would be a great source for bits for a reaper of obliterax.
2014/10/28 20:56:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
gigasnail wrote: Hope for a formation in the BA/nids campaign book giving the toxfex fleet, or shrouded bubble. Otherwise why would you ever use them in a serious game?
The brain bug there is no helping.
Model for the toxic avenger is pretty sick, and would be a great source for bits for a reaper of obliterax.
Did they release a formation for either side from Stormclaw? I really didn't pay much attention to that release
2014/10/28 21:17:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
So I haven't really been paying much attention to my Nids recently, these new releases have peeked my interest again, even if the actual release is a disappointment.
What's new on the competitive scene for us? How are we dealing with things like AdLance and Serpent Spam?
Seems to me that the Maleceptor is the worst unit available to Tyranids. It is likely to kill itself via perils before it kill an enemy unit with that crappy psychic power, and it is more expensive and less survivable than our other support units. Truely this is a masterpiece of suck.
2014/10/28 21:28:57
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Iechine wrote: Ill order the Toxicrene/maleceptor kit on Saturday. I bought a Haruspex on looks alone, so this is nothing new.
To be fair, I do like the sound of instant death on our weapons, its the 12" range that is unfortunate. Also the ID from S10 weapons.
Does set a nice precedent. And allegedly they both are toughness 6. The Toxicrene is supposed to be strength 5 but who cares when it wounds on a 2+ always, often a re-rollable one?
The Tyranid player that usually play against 3 Maulerfiends with a 24" cover-ignoring close combat threat range, backed up by 3 Fleeting, extrarunning Soulgrinders?
2014/10/28 22:16:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Tyran wrote: And they seem useless. Good job GW, I can't wait when you are dead and someone buys the IP.
Exalts. And if people don't like this crappy release, please don't support it by spending your money on it immediately, encouraging them to continue to do it, and prolonging the life of GW's terrible management. Just let them die, buy the model later on.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/28 22:56:58
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
wow ... terrible terrible rules ... I dont understand why this keeps hapening ... We get 2 new Haruspex wanabes, I am speechless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaaaaaaanyway ... since this is a tactics thread after all , might as well, at least try, to come up with something usefull about this new release ...
So toxicrene is a 160 pts, heavy support that throws a large pie plate that wounds pretty much anything and ignores cover but most things still get 4+or 3+ regular save against it. It is 12" so you have to crawl your monster up to firing range. Basically, mawlocs have nothing to fear there. Armor bane on a str 3 weapon is barely worth mentioning especially with the range of the weapon (your toxicrene will never be in range to even try)... I can see potential in melee with the 6 attacks on the profile. When you think about it, the pie plate is only a small bonus to this unit, it really is a dedicated melee monster with a little extra. With 6 ap 2 attacks that wound on 2 and rerolls against most units, you have the potential to clear any infantry squad that you manage to charge, except TH:SS termies. Still, not a unit I would include in my list (Mawlocs, exocrines and dakkafex are still king of the hill in the HS slot).
The maleceptor is "cough" 200ish pts "cough" and, I think, is aimed at either sniping psykers (or try to) or glancing down AV13+ spam lists. It becomes less and less efficient the lower the AV of your target (we have more efficient ways to deal with AV12 or less). This guy will chew up all of your warp charges and leave a vehicle or 2 down a hull point at best. Rolling a 11 or better on 3d6 gives you 50% chance of success but you still have to roll to hit on a bs 3 because of the witchfire rule. which basically translates of 25% chance to glance (ignoring cover) provided you harnessed enough warp charges and that you were not denied... or deflected by a certain 4+ shield. It is also suceptible to perils. So yes, this unit is very bad and I dont see any competitive list running them , especially when they share the slot with malanthropes and the like.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/10/29 00:05:14
2014/10/29 03:19:48
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
cyberjonesy wrote: wow ... terrible terrible rules ...
I dont understand why this keeps hapening ... We get 2 new Haruspex wanabes, I am speechless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaaaaaaanyway ... since this is a tactics thread after all , might as well, at least try, to come up with something usefull about this new release ...
So toxicrene is a 160 pts, heavy support that throws a large pie plate that wounds pretty much anything and ignores cover but most things still get 4+or 3+ regular save against it. It is 12" so you have to crawl your monster up to firing range. Basically, mawlocs have nothing to fear there. Armor bane on a str 3 weapon is barely worth mentioning especially with the range of the weapon (your toxicrene will never be in range to even try)... I can see potential in melee with the 6 attacks on the profile. When you think about it, the pie plate is only a small bonus to this unit, it really is a dedicated melee monster with a little extra. With 6 ap 2 attacks that wound on 2 and rerolls against most units, you have the potential to clear any infantry squad that you manage to charge, except TH:SS termies. Still, not a unit I would include in my list (Mawlocs, exocrines and dakkafex are still king of the hill in the HS slot).
The maleceptor is "cough" 200ish pts "cough" and, I think, is aimed at either sniping psykers (or try to) or glancing down AV13+ spam lists. It becomes less and less efficient the lower the AV of your target (we have more efficient ways to deal with AV12 or less). This guy will chew up all of your warp charges and leave a vehicle or 2 down a hull point at best. Rolling a 11 or better on 3d6 gives you 50% chance of success but you still have to roll to hit on a bs 3 because of the witchfire rule. which basically translates of 25% chance to glance (ignoring cover) provided you harnessed enough warp charges and that you were not denied... or deflected by a certain 4+ shield. It is also suceptible to perils. So yes, this unit is very bad and I dont see any competitive list running them , especially when they share the slot with malanthropes and the like.
it's like they are trying to say " No honest, it doesn't totally suck!
you're right. to be fair it doesn't totally suck but for the following two reasons I won't bother:
1. Dimachaeron does it better.
2. It's lash whips are ridiculously too long/wide.
Also rules side note:
by the sounds of their recommendations for cover, it looks like intervening model works just by having a model in front of another model from a third party- not covering 25%!
You know why the new Toxecrene is so terrible? Krak grenades. If a Toxicrene charges a 10 man Tac squad in cover, the Tox would lose 3.33 wounds just to 10 marines with Krak grenades. And that's assuming the Sarge has no power weapon or anything! If the Sarge has a Power Maul (my personal favorite) the Crene takes an even 4 wounds. But wait, what if they have overwatch?
Let's say a Toxicrene charges a 10 man tac squad with a flamer/missile launcher and Power Maul. Assuming 3++ cover, the Toxicrene will take 4.35 wounds before he's even swung. And then hitting back he kills 3-4 Tac marines (3.4 statistically).
This is a Close Combat oriented MC who charges a basic loadout of a standard troop, and LOSES COMBAT. That's assuming NOTHING else targets him (and you can bet such a points sink will take a few shots early, like from said tac squad.)
I genuinely can't fathom who thought a 4+ armor save was a good idea. I don't know how they thought a Space Marine was better armored than this guy. And the most sad, infuriating part is how close this guy was to being cool. SO CLOSE. If they had done one of the following two things, I would buy two of these.
1. change type to Beast, or other 12" move.
2. 3+ armor save and access to biomorphs.
Seriously, if I could just buy it the normal upgrades from the MC uprades I may even think about it. But no Fleet? I mean come on... At least let me spend the points to buy it fleet!
Sigh. I'm done ranting for now, mostly because this popped out of the blue and I still had my hopes up. Plus, that Toxicrene model is honestly pretty sweet. Just don't mention the Maleceptor around me and I'll stay calm...
2014/10/29 04:36:10
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Just a quick look at the Tau list says you go cheated again or the opponent is still not reading the codex. Drone controller on the Riptide? Either misplayed or miss reading drone rules. Did he play the markerlights correclty?
SBG wrote: I honestly think he's trolling at this point.
Lighten up on the kid please. It's obvious he is new, both to Tyranid tactics and the rules to the game (let alone other people's armies).
It's better to help him out with correct information and tactical advice rather than accusations of cheating and trolling. We need to encourage new players to the hobby, not vice versa.
Oh agree, just trying to figure out what the opponent is doing. Based on the original thread by Verviedi the opponent is really screw him over. That makes it hard to give good advice. On the other hand I like Verviedi's paint scheme.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: You know why the new Toxecrene is so terrible? Krak grenades. If a Toxicrene charges a 10 man Tac squad in cover, the Tox would lose 3.33 wounds just to 10 marines with Krak grenades. And that's assuming the Sarge has no power weapon or anything! If the Sarge has a Power Maul (my personal favorite) the Crene takes an even 4 wounds. But wait, what if they have overwatch?
Let's say a Toxicrene charges a 10 man tac squad with a flamer/missile launcher and Power Maul. Assuming 3++ cover, the Toxicrene will take 4.35 wounds before he's even swung. And then hitting back he kills 3-4 Tac marines (3.4 statistically).
This is a Close Combat oriented MC who charges a basic loadout of a standard troop, and LOSES COMBAT. That's assuming NOTHING else targets him (and you can bet such a points sink will take a few shots early, like from said tac squad.)
I genuinely can't fathom who thought a 4+ armor save was a good idea. I don't know how they thought a Space Marine was better armored than this guy. And the most sad, infuriating part is how close this guy was to being cool. SO CLOSE. If they had done one of the following two things, I would buy two of these.
1. change type to Beast, or other 12" move.
2. 3+ armor save and access to biomorphs.
Seriously, if I could just buy it the normal upgrades from the MC uprades I may even think about it. But no Fleet? I mean come on... At least let me spend the points to buy it fleet!
Sigh. I'm done ranting for now, mostly because this popped out of the blue and I still had my hopes up. Plus, that Toxicrene model is honestly pretty sweet. Just don't mention the Maleceptor around me and I'll stay calm...
The same folks that think a Hausperex is a "specialist" for cracking knights.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/29 04:39:22
2014/10/29 05:02:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I really really like both the models. Very cool chasis and I like that they are very large and unique.. that said
THE RULES SUCK. I WANT to think the toxicrene can see a table but tbh even while it is fairly cheap 40 more points gets you the Dima which is across the board better and has more insta death on a 4+ than just random 6's. It really really saddens me that GW fell this short with rules. The haruspex is a fething joke (I've never seen one and I personally have never been inspired to even try one while I have two exocrines magnetized to be haruspexes as well). It really really saddens me that after the Nids codex release to now it looks like if anything GW has become even MORE detached with it's consumer base.. the dual kit package is excellent.. the models look great.. the rules are not just "ok" they are actively bad. They almost discourage you from buying the models themselves. Vanilla carnifexes are better for less.
Don't even get me started on the maleceptor.. it is nearly incapable of doing damage and costs MORE for some reason nobody can explain.
20k+
10k+
2014/10/29 08:28:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
The same folks that think a Hausperex is a "specialist" for cracking knights.....
Comically, I have actually seen an unsupported Haruspex kill an Imperial Knight before, but only due to the aforementioned Knight having terrible dice (did 3 wounds in 2 rounds of combat with both its destroyer weapon and stomps and one more when it exploded).
jifel wrote: You know why the new Toxecrene is so terrible? Krak grenades. If a Toxicrene charges a 10 man Tac squad in cover, the Tox would lose 3.33 wounds just to 10 marines with Krak grenades. And that's assuming the Sarge has no power weapon or anything! If the Sarge has a Power Maul (my personal favorite) the Crene takes an even 4 wounds. But wait, what if they have overwatch?
Let's say a Toxicrene charges a 10 man tac squad with a flamer/missile launcher and Power Maul. Assuming 3++ cover, the Toxicrene will take 4.35 wounds before he's even swung. And then hitting back he kills 3-4 Tac marines (3.4 statistically).
Might be a bit of a devils advocate, but wouldn't sending it against Tactical Marines be comparable to a Marine throwing Assault Terminators against Gaunts? The thing is basically demanding it be used against things like Centurions, Ogryn, Grotesques, Bikes, Spawn, enemy MCs, and so forth where its attacks are more meaningful. Against Tacticals it is basically the same as any other TMC with toxin sacs.
jifel wrote: I genuinely can't fathom who thought a 4+ armor save was a good idea. I don't know how they thought a Space Marine was better armored than this guy.
I'm guessing it was done with Grav weapons in mind. If a unit of 3 Centurions with Grav-cannons opens fire on the Toxicrene, they should inflict 4-5 wounds on it before saves. In contrast, against an Exocrine or Haruspex the Centurions should do roughly 6-7 wounds before saves. Assuming both units are in some form of area terrain that gives a 5+ cover, the Toxicrene should end up taking 1-2 unsaved wounds while the Exocrine/Haruspex will take about 4 (ruins improve this to 0.84 wounds on the Toxicrene and 3 for the Exocrine/Haruspex).
(the actual justification is probably that the creatures are effectively scaled-up Venomthropes/Zoanthropes, both of which have a 5+ save, but I'd like to think there is a practical design reason for it)
.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/29 10:44:58
2014/10/29 10:52:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
iNcontroL wrote: I really really like both the models. Very cool chasis and I like that they are very large and unique.. that said
THE RULES SUCK. I WANT to think the toxicrene can see a table but tbh even while it is fairly cheap 40 more points gets you the Dima which is across the board better and has more insta death on a 4+ than just random 6's. It really really saddens me that GW fell this short with rules. The haruspex is a fething joke (I've never seen one and I personally have never been inspired to even try one while I have two exocrines magnetized to be haruspexes as well). It really really saddens me that after the Nids codex release to now it looks like if anything GW has become even MORE detached with it's consumer base.. the dual kit package is excellent.. the models look great.. the rules are not just "ok" they are actively bad. They almost discourage you from buying the models themselves. Vanilla carnifexes are better for less.
Don't even get me started on the maleceptor.. it is nearly incapable of doing damage and costs MORE for some reason nobody can explain.
This is so true dude they are drawing further and further away from their playerbase thinking pretty models are what we want.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
(more)
(building)
(less)
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Thousand Sons 4000+
10k+