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Hi,

Sorry if this has been covered before, I tried to search for it but couldn't find anything that really answered my question.

So a bit of background, last night I was watching a documentary on Passchendaele and, in particular, the diaries of some of the soldiers there. They went into the battle with a fanatical belief in God and the cause of the war, so much so that they believed their faith in God and killing their enemies were one and the same. Without going into too much detail their experiences by the end of the four month battle had shattered their faith and whether the war was worth fighting at all. Now I would recommend that anyone with an interest in WW1 or history at all should read into Passchendaele and I feel you can draw a lot of parallels between 40ks grim darkness and "fighting in hell" as Passchendaele became known, but this is beside the point.

Now back to my original question. The fanatical devotion of these soldiers reminded me of the SoB and I wondered at what point, if any, their faith in their cause could be broken. Now I know that, unlike these soldiers, the SoB are raised from around infancy with their beliefs in the emperor and therefore the strength of their faith will be more deeply ingrained but still at their heart they are human and this must leave some room for doubt. If the horrors they faced were bad enough, and for a prolonged period, then I would imagine their faith could be broken but those of you with more knowledge may be able to confirm these details.

Just to clarify, I don't mean cowardice and running away from battle by their faith being broken. The men of Passchendaele stayed to the bitter end fighting alongside their brothers in arms and many won medals, including a George's Cross, it was the fact that they questioned the point of it all and if it was worth it that I am interested in. Could this question be raised in the mind of an Adepta Sororitas? Or her unit? Could the human element win out over the indoctrination?

Thanks!

1.) I wouldn't rule out that in principle faith can be broken also among Sororitas.
2.) But keep in mind that most Sororitas have experienced real Acts of Faith, i.e. wonders, in battle, so breaking faith would be very difficult after that.
3.) IIRC only one incident is known of a sister being corrupted by Chaos.

As far as I'm aware, none of them have had their faith entirely broken, at least not in the studio fluff. Indeed, while not an instance of long attrition like those WW1 soldiers faced, codex fluff notes that their own becoming martyrs only strengthen the resolve of the Sisters, and the AS codex even has a rule where the warlord dying grants them a bonus to their AoF rolls (I think. At college so don't have access to my AS codex). Though there is, this, wherein a particularly crushing defeat by the Orks leads to some Novices in the Order of Our Martyred Lady questioning their faith. Not full Battle Sisters, but hey.

Though, interestingly, there may be something of a crunch example of it. In the AS codex, there's an alter of war mission where the Sisters are defending a shrine, whilst one of the enemy objectives is to destroy the shrine. If the enemy succeeds, then all Sisters lose their Shield of Faith rule, though I think that they can still do AoFs (again, will have to confirm this later, but I'm pretty sure). Maybe their faith isn't entirely broken, but losing their SoF would certainly seem to imply a serious blow to their faith/morale.

And then, of course, there's probably a few examples outside of the studio fluff. One example I can think of is Blood of Asaheim where, according to another poster here, a Canoness says that she lost her faith whilst fighting against some cultists and three plague marines, only to have it restored when some Space Wolves show up to help. Personally I think that this book's portrayal of them is pretty bad and doesn't really line up with their portrayal by GW, and I've chosen to disregard it, but it's there.

Hope that helps!

 Kroothawk wrote:
3.) IIRC only one incident is known of a sister being corrupted by Chaos.

Though it should be noted that she came from a third-party card game. Dan Abnett did write a story about her, but the codexes have never acknowledged her.

Hi,

Thanks for your quick response.

I guess it depends what those acts of faith are but I understand your point. The doubt would have to outweigh the faith they already have, although it could be eroded over time if they felt their battle had fallen from the emperors favour?

With regards to your third point, I wonder if it would be possible for them to question the point of the conflict without necessarily turning to chaos. They would still fight on as they know the evil has to be stopped but they could question if the path being taken is truly the emperors will? Obviously the ecclesiarchy would consider it heretical but I could see there being room for a grey area.

I find these grey areas create the best material for back stories for characters or campaigns and discussions. If everything is too black and white then every story would end up the same

Debateable. However, combat in 40k is significantly more lethal than it was at Passchendaele simply because of the types of threats - at Passchendaele, it was fairly common for men to be wounded and survive. Taking casualties is one thing, but having those casualties then live on crippled and screaming has a huge effect on morale.

In 40k, the only armies that really wield weapons that will wound you but not kill you are Orks and Guard, and even then the killing power of a lasgun or ork shoota is going to far outstrip a WW1 rifle.

As for the human element vs indoctrination, you have to throw the 'it's 40k' element in - everyone is more resilient in a fantasy setting like 40k, only breaking for plot reasons.

Another thing to consider. In WW1 the soldiers where fighting men, much like themselves, whom belived in much the same thing they did. a good quote regarding that is to be fround in Lord of the Rings actually (remember it was written by a vetern of the first world war) "The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there ... in peace. War will make corpses of us all."

there's something profoundly unsettling about killing an enemy soldier and realizing he could have been your next door neighbor or something.

in 40k, the enemy is VASTLY more alien. even the followers of Chaos are pretty alien, and it's also worth considering that given how they are raised sisters proably don't empathize much with the "common man" not to say they're evil psycopaths, but it likely just isn't something they think of

Jdredsox wrote:
I guess it depends what those acts of faith are but I understand your point.

I doesn't particularly matter what a given AoF is, in this context. They're all fluffed as examples of the Sisters using their faith to drive them to great feats. But yeah, the loss of their SoF is certainly still significant.

Jdredsox wrote:
With regards to your third point, I wonder if it would be possible for them to question the point of the conflict without necessarily turning to chaos.

I doubt that Sisters ever really question "the point" of a conflict. The enemy has defied the church in some way, and that is reason enough. This goes doubly so if the enemy are heretics, no worries about the Sisters questioning things there, they have a rather strong dislike of heretics.

Jdredsox wrote:
although it could be eroded over time if they felt their battle had fallen from the emperors favour?

Jdredsox wrote:
They would still fight on as they know the evil has to be stopped but they could question if the path being taken is truly the emperors will?

I can't think of a situation where that would arise. The Sisters aren't particularly unnerved by collateral damage or losses, they're fine with martyrdom and people falling in service to the Imperium. I think that the presence of an enemy to their faith would override pretty much anything else.

Though, James Swallow's SoB novels for BL sort of provide an example (and I like his portrayal far more, since the guy is obviously putting effort into portraying the SoB). Though her faith is certainly never broken, the protagonist, Sister Miriya, feels regret and doubt after some of her squadmates are killed (this happens early on, so it's not too much of a spoiler, I would hope). Miriya is something as a maverick (in the context of the SoB, anyway), but I don't think it's unreasonable that a Sister could shaken by the loss of her close comrades. Though I don't think that this would break their faith within battle, probably driving them onwards to avenge their comrades. And then when they leave battle, they can have their faith resorted back at the monastery.

Jdredsox wrote:
Obviously the ecclesiarchy would consider it heretical but I could see there being room for a grey area.

I dunno, I'd say that the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy are pretty close in terms of mindset. If anything, the Sisters are probably more fanatical and inflexible than many of the clergy in the Ecclesiarchy.

Jdredsox wrote:
I find these grey areas create the best material for back stories for characters or campaigns and discussions. If everything is too black and white then every story would end up the same

Well, this is a bit of a thing with the Sisters- as 40K factions go, they are pretty black and white. Different Orders do have different mindsets and approaches to war, but they're all still very puritan zealots, all with that same mindset very deeply stamped into them. But that's the point of them, they're here to show off the heights of the Imperium's zeal, to really embody the "warriors of god" thing that the Imperium has going, so it makes sense to me that they're pretty uniform.

They're certainly not clones, and Sisters can have different temperaments and personalities. I think that James Swallow gets the balance about right, though. The Sisters he writes are still all very much zealots to the Imperial Creed first and foremost, but they also have varying personalities and occasional personal problems to overcome.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
for the human element vs indoctrination, you have to throw the 'it's 40k' element in - everyone is more resilient in a fantasy setting like 40k, only breaking for plot reasons.

Though I'd say it's pretty justified with the Sisters. It starts from early childhood, they never really live in a normal environment and they end up living in isolated monasteries with others who have also been indoctrinated in the same way.

Jdredsox wrote:

With regards to your third point, I wonder if it would be possible for them to question the point of the conflict without necessarily turning to chaos. They would still fight on as they know the evil has to be stopped but they could question if the path being taken is truly the emperors will? Obviously the ecclesiarchy would consider it heretical but I could see there being room for a grey area.
)

Well, the thing to remember here is that the Sororitas have jurisdiction over the Ecclesiarchy in military matters, and in faith matters in some occasions.

The Confessors and so on are not military men. If a Bishop tells a Canoness "Go throw your Sisters at that fortress until it falls!", the Canoness will tell him, "I'll take that fortress for you, but don't tell me how to do my job."

Unless the Canoness has reason to believe that said fortress holds loyal subjects of the Imperium, at which point she'll say, "Why?" and if she doesn't like the answer, it's the Confessor who gets it for attempting to secede.

A Canoness is a spiritual leader as much as a military one, so she knows the Emperor's will. The Sororitas aren't just soldiers fighting for the Emperor, they are His adoptive daughters. You can't really compare them to the rank and file at Passchendaele - it would be better to compare them to the chaplains who accompanied those soldiers.

 Troike wrote:
The Sisters aren't particularly unnerved by collateral damage or losses, they're fine with martyrdom and people falling in service to the Imperium. I think that the presence of an enemy to their faith would override pretty much anything else.

True, but they are sometimes upset at needless collateral damage and losses. Such as Canoness Carmina's report on the joint action of the Order of the Argent Shroud and the Flesh Tearers marines at Gaius Point, Third war for Armageddon. She's led her force for nearly a century and so wasn't surprised that Chapter Master Seth didn't give her any tactical counsel. She can cover for her allies if needed, no problem. Setting up where her Sisters could shoot the orks approaching the Gaius Point militia defenses when the Flesh Tearers hit the orks from the rear was no problem. But seeing the Flesh Tearers go apeshit crazy, throwing away helmets and going at the orks with knives and teeth? And then swarming over the militia barricades to kill every last human defender too? She recommended Inquisitorial investigation or orbital bombardment.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010415002432/www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/ftearers.html

That's because the Flesh Tearers had just slaughtered the Emperor's Own faithful, the people the SoB defend, you know?

And the Sisters are definitely not ignorant to the aspects and traits of the Ruinous Powers. Hence the recommendation for Inquisitorial investigation. Had the Flesh Tearers become a Khornate cult? Not for her to decide, that's the Inquisition's job.

Wow, thanks for all the responses. I wasn't expecting so much feedback for a SoB question.

I will look into the James Swallow books to see how he represents them, my main concern with reading the codex etc is that at times they almost seem robotic in their devotion to the emperor and I was hoping to see a more human element to them.

Thanks again!

They are almost robotic in their devotion to the Emperor. Their faith is total and profound... and any hint of doubt is met with severe punishments, often requested (and inflicted) by the Sister herself.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's because the Flesh Tearers had just slaughtered the Emperor's Own faithful, the people the SoB defend, you know?

Duh. That's why I called it needless collateral damage and losses.

The sisters would probably had much less problems with the Marines Malevolent shelling a refugee camp to soften the orks that were breaching it before launching a counterattack. Killing 4000 civilians in order to kill 5000 orks is a victory, right? And it might make sense even to us who still remember the two great wars that should have ended all wars...

BrianDavion wrote:
Another thing to consider. In WW1 the soldiers where fighting men, much like themselves, whom belived in much the same thing they did. a good quote regarding that is to be fround in Lord of the Rings actually (remember it was written by a vetern of the first world war) "The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there ... in peace. War will make corpses of us all."

there's something profoundly unsettling about killing an enemy soldier and realizing he could have been your next door neighbor or something.

in 40k, the enemy is VASTLY more alien. even the followers of Chaos are pretty alien, and it's also worth considering that given how they are raised sisters proably don't empathize much with the "common man" not to say they're evil psycopaths, but it likely just isn't something they think of

This is nitpicking, but that quote is from the movie, and not the actual line from the book...but yes, J.R.R. Tolkien did serve in WWI.

This has become far more political/historical than I originally intended .

I guess the only true "human" army would be imperial guard then, although ironically a number of xenos armies appear to have more human traits than the sisters and super human space marines.

I am still curious about the levels of the sisters faith, perhaps not in the emperor but maybe their own leaders on the battlefield? It was mentioned earlier (sorry I'm on my phone and can't quite get the hang of quotes on this device) that the sisters wouldn't be moved by killing their enemy, at least not in the same way, as a soldier in ww1 would. And I agree with this. But, if their fellow sisters were being killed around them, the sisters they grew up with from infancy, eventually it must take it's toll. I know about the martyrs of the emperor etc but I could only see that stretching so far especially for a minor order that may not have prolonged, and direct contact with more central powers. I'm not suggesting a full scale change for the sisters as a whole but maybe a minor order that is decimated in battle could see the surviving sisters question whether there is a better way for them to serve the emperor. Especially if the canonness etc is killed in battle and one of the survivors steps up to command.

The sisters don't seem to receive a lot of love in the official canon/fluff and so much of their back story seems to be archaic and while others have moved forward theirs has been stuck.

Now I don't want this to devolve into a discussion on sexism etc, I just think that a refreshed view on them could be in order. Obviously my one little thread won't make an iota of difference in the bigger picture but I want to explore whether or not there is room to investigate a way forwards, even if it is just a little background fluff for my army.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed so far, it has definitely given me food for thought, and any future comments are welcome also. I may post some of my ideas on here, if that is ok, for critique and comments to help mould my view into something that fits with the fluff already in place.

If a Sister found herself questioning her faith in the Emperor, then she would believe that the fault lie within her, not within the Emperor. Thus, she'd be haring off to the Repentia, or be subjecting herself to all sorts of penances and religious devotions and the like, to reaffirm and reinforce her faith.

Remember that the Sororitas is a penitent organization, who believes that the purpose of life is to suffer. Thus, they have absolutely no problem subjecting themselves to physical hardships and torments on a daily basis while constantly foregoing any kind of corporeal pleasure (sex, good food, drugs, alcohol, etc.).

Would questioning their superiors be the same as questioning the emperor himself?

Their superiors are parental (maternal, specifically) figures to them, it is noted. So... kind of.

Jdredsox wrote:
and while others have moved forward theirs has been stuck.

It's certainly true that their fluff hasn't been added to majorly since last codex, but I wouldn't exactly call them "stuck". I think that GW has a pretty good idea of who the Sisters are, fanatical zealots who use their faith to give them an edge in battle. While one doesn't often see a big retcon coming, I'm fairly confident that the SoB fluff will stay pretty consistent at its core (or so I hope!)

Jdredsox wrote:
I just think that a refreshed view on them could be in order.

Hmmmm... What were you hoping for, out of curiosity? Personally, I think they're good the way they are now, they fit their niche as zealot-soldiers well. I'd certainly not want them to get a major retcon, or anything like that.

I think part of it requires addressing the OP's initial question:

Jdredsox wrote: Just to clarify, I don't mean cowardice and running away from battle by their faith being broken. The men of Passchendaele stayed to the bitter end fighting alongside their brothers in arms and many won medals, including a George's Cross, it was the fact that they questioned the point of it all and if it was worth it that I am interested in. Could this question be raised in the mind of an Adepta Sororitas? Or her unit? Could the human element win out over the indoctrination?

And the answer is... no. While Sisters are certainly not utterly fearless and, sure, could be driven from combat due to morale issues, those Sisters who do so will then go volunteer for the Sisters Repentia, and find absolution for this sin in death.

The indoctrination is not only total, it starts from within. The girls who are sent to the Sisterhood from the Schola Progenium are selected because, in addition to their academic and combat scores, their faith is noted as being total and absolute. Faith is not something you can teach someone, it's not a skill or a talent, it's just something you have or you don't have. The girls who go to the Sororitas made the decision, conscious or not, that they were super-really-into the worship of the God-Emperor, at some point during their childhood. This is the bedrock that the Sisterhood will build a Battle-Sister (or a Dialoguous, or Famulous or Hospitaler or Pronatus and so on) upon.

While the Sisters put an edge on it, and hone and temper it into a sword for the Ecclesiarchy and the Emperor, the zealotry inherent in the Sisters starts with the individual girl, long before she's selected to be a Novitiate.

I wouldn't call the Sisters "robotic," but Psienesis is dead right on the crucial difference between your Paschendale veterans and the Sororitas: a lifetime of military training and indoctrination. By contrast, even the most hardcore Special Operator in a modern Western military didn't start combat training until his later teenage years (maybe early teens if you count military prep school). A 40-year old Special Forces Master Sergeant who enlisted at age 18 has spent fewer years in a military environment than a 25-year old Sororitas who entered the Schola in infancy. A Turkish janissary raised from childhood to fight, kill, follow orders, and if need be die is a far closer analogy to the Sisters than any European soldier. Even medieval knights spent some part of their childhood with their mothers before their life became full-time training for war.

Remember also the kind of religion the Sisters have faith in. They're not good British boys who grew up with stories of sweet Baby Jesus in the manger bringing peace on earth, good will towards men. Yes, the Ecclesiarchy looks like "Catholic Nazis IN SPACE" but their doctrine makes even medieval crusader Christianity look pacifistic: there is no forgiveness, no mercy, no respite, there is ONLY WAR in which you kill the Emperor's enemies as long as you can before they kill you. What's there to lose faith in? You're getting exactly what your religion promised.

 Psienesis wrote:
Faith is not something you can teach someone, it's not a skill or a talent, it's just something you have or you don't have.

I think that this is a very key element to the Sisters, and should probably be mentioned more in these discussions.

Yeah, there aren't just any random women who've gotten this indoctrination, they were specifically noted as being suited to life as a Sister.

Hmmm. Certainly, Sisters are a tiny and highly selected subset of the population. Certainly, innate ability -- even genetic "purity" -- is a big factor in that selection. But I wouldn't consider faith an innate ability, certainly not a binary either-or "you have it or you don't." To the contrary, Sororitas-level faith is not something the human brain just manifests on its own in the course of normal development, no matter how extraordinary the individual: It's something you have to be taught.



I'm actually currently taking a graduate course in military decisionmaking and psychological resilience under stress, and I'm astounded by how much of what we tend of think of as "just the way I am" turns out to be the simple result of repeated experience (especially in childhood) that hardens into habit -- habits that are wired in our neural pathways but which we can actually change. Repeated experiences can even turn on and off parts of our DNA ("epigenetics"), causing genes to express themselves or go dormant.

PS: I also have a fondness for Sisters with human doubts and weaknesses in my own fanfiction.

 SisterSydney wrote:
But I wouldn't consider faith an innate ability, certainly not a binary either-or "you have it or you don't."

Nah, of course the faith itself isn't in-built. What'd be innate would be an ability to take particularly well to that sort of thinking, is what I'm getting at.

 SisterSydney wrote:
To the contrary, Sororitas-level faith is not something the human brain just manifests on its own in the course of normal development, no matter how extraordinary the individual: It's something you have to be taught.

Yeah, it's mostly the the environmental influences that gets them to that level, I'd say. Though I'd still say that nature has something of a role in there, in that those who are more suited to that sort of mindset take to it better than their peers and are flagged as being suitable to be a Sororitas.

 SisterSydney wrote:
and I'm astounded by how much of what we tend of think of as "just the way I am" turns out to be the simple result of repeated experience (especially in childhood) that hardens into habit

But nature is certainly also a factor in determining who a person is as well as nurture, though I'm unsure about the supposed ratio of that would be. Though IIRC they've done adoption studies and found that adopted children often have personality traits from their biological parents too. But yeah, it's an interesting issue to examine.

I'd also point out as well that the faith of the SoB's is so strong that they're immune to the taint of Doubtworm, just like Astartes. Whereas Guardsmen and all normal humans are susceptible to doubtworm and it's lightning fast spread.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That's because the Flesh Tearers had just slaughtered the Emperor's Own faithful, the people the SoB defend, you know?

Duh. That's why I called it needless collateral damage and losses.

The sisters would probably had much less problems with the Marines Malevolent shelling a refugee camp to soften the orks that were breaching it before launching a counterattack. Killing 4000 civilians in order to kill 5000 orks is a victory, right? And it might make sense even to us who still remember the two great wars that should have ended all wars...

There's 'needless collateral damage and losses' and then there's 'deliberately assaulting a friendly position'. The Malevolents inflicted the former. The Flesh Tearers committed the latter.

Wyzilla wrote:I'd also point out as well that the faith of the SoB's is so strong that they're immune to the taint of Doubtworm, just like Astartes. Whereas Guardsmen and all normal humans are susceptible to doubtworm and it's lightning fast spread.

Is Doubtworm the brain-zombie-daemon thing from Death of Antagonis? Because I thought a couple of Marines were affected in that.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That's because the Flesh Tearers had just slaughtered the Emperor's Own faithful, the people the SoB defend, you know?

Duh. That's why I called it needless collateral damage and losses.

The sisters would probably had much less problems with the Marines Malevolent shelling a refugee camp to soften the orks that were breaching it before launching a counterattack. Killing 4000 civilians in order to kill 5000 orks is a victory, right? And it might make sense even to us who still remember the two great wars that should have ended all wars...

There's 'needless collateral damage and losses' and then there's 'deliberately assaulting a friendly position'. The Malevolents inflicted the former. The Flesh Tearers committed the latter.

Wyzilla wrote:I'd also point out as well that the faith of the SoB's is so strong that they're immune to the taint of Doubtworm, just like Astartes. Whereas Guardsmen and all normal humans are susceptible to doubtworm and it's lightning fast spread.

Is Doubtworm the brain-zombie-daemon thing from Death of Antagonis? Because I thought a couple of Marines were affected in that.

None of the Astartes were affected by the Doubtworm. Just some utter BS with the Inquisitor asking one question with the newly appointed captain just going 'OK, I'm going to betray my chapter now!'.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'd also point out as well that the faith of the SoB's is so strong that they're immune to the taint of Doubtworm, just like Astartes. Whereas Guardsmen and all normal humans are susceptible to doubtworm and it's lightning fast spread.

That was an good book. Setheno especially was pretty great, and a complete surprise. Only bought that book for the zombies, wasn't expecting an awesome SoB character in there too.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Is Doubtworm the brain-zombie-daemon thing from Death of Antagonis? Because I thought a couple of Marines were affected in that.

Yep. And nah, I don't think that any Marines were affected. What the Doubtworm was doing was telling people that the Emperor didn't exist via telepathy. And if a person doubted even a little, they were zombified. The Marines were easily able to resist that, since they know for sure that the Emperor exists due to him being their genetic forefather (the Marine protagonist even laughs in response to the Doubtworm screaming at him about the Emperor not being real).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Just some utter BS with the Inquisitor asking one question with the newly appointed captain just going 'OK, I'm going to betray my chapter now!'.

Wasn't this after that evil priest guy had started messing with his mind, or was it before then? Regardless, I'm pretty sure that it only became outright betrayal when the Captain and Inquisitor fell under evil priest man's influence.

Which book is that? I've only been playing SoB for a year or so. Have only read Red and Black and Hammer and Anvil. Are there other books with SoB in them?

 milkboy wrote:
Which book is that? I've only been playing SoB for a year or so. Have only read Red and Black and Hammer and Anvil. Are there other books with SoB in them?

Faith and Fire goes between Red and Black and Hammer and Anvil. There were way too many 'ands' in that sentence.

Death of Antagonis includes a single Sister of Battle character, a "Canoness Errant" who ordered her entire order purged because she felt they had been exposed to too much Chaos. She was a badass, but I object to the implication that an order of Sisters fell. Her taking on an Astartes in close combat kind of wins her points though, especially since she won.