Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aiight. I'm in for the base game, skeleton Creeps, slime Creeps and the extra 6 tiles.

What are the extra tiles for? Saw them in the list and was contemplating them...

Is there some game format you can play if you have extra tiles - or do you just like extras?

It's just for variety really. I'd say it's worth it, the main starter set with its 5 tiles gets a bit repetitive after a while.

The extra tiles are simply to have a different dungeon layout. The ones that come in the FK box are two-sided (forest ruins and we-don't-know) and the Blacksmith shop add-on ones are a different art set (traditional dungeon and we-don't-know). Nice for variety.

The upcoming Super Dungeon Explore Legends (campaign system) may well use more than the six included tiles, or you can have them around to run multiple Arena (PvP) games simultaneously (each game requires four tiles).

I better pledge now, so there's still time to pull my pledge in the morning before it ends...

Genuine question - why is anybody pledging more than the base $100 at this point? It's confirmed that there will be a pledge manager later, nothing is pledge-time limited, and every single stretch goal has been reached.

Pledging in the future will help to split the cost, and there's a good chance that it will be on the basis of more information (updated shipping date, production samples, renders for the stuff we don't have yet etc.). Is it to take advantage of a weak Dollar? To make it easier to track the amount spent?

I haven't done it yet, but I didn't realise there'd be a pledge manager; that's good news.

I added the Blacksmith stuff because SDE stuff is near impossible to get here, I'd have to order from a UK stockist and pretty much pay retail for it again shipping is added . It's probably at the same cost now as it will be from online discounters later but this way I'm gauranteed to get it and avail of combined shipping it will only add another $5 to my order cost. There has been no word if all of the Blacksmith stuff will go into normal distribution SPM might hold some of it for their own store only which would mean having to pay retail costs and added cost of shipping from the US and possible customs/VAT charge. Basically it's more convenient to get it all in one go than have to chase bits later.

The $100 is a great deal the rest not so much but it at least matches retail discounts. Why not wait for the PM well I have the money now and would rather pay it off now while I have it than wait a few weeks when I may not have it again, cash in hand is easily spent and forgotten about.

Bioptic wrote:
Genuine question - why is anybody pledging more than the base $100 at this point? It's confirmed that there will be a pledge manager later, nothing is pledge-time limited, and every single stretch goal has been reached.

Pledging in the future will help to split the cost, and there's a good chance that it will be on the basis of more information (updated shipping date, production samples, renders for the stuff we don't have yet etc.). Is it to take advantage of a weak Dollar? To make it easier to track the amount spent?

Some people also want to support the project. After all, that is what Kickstarter is about. If everyone just pledged $1 and waited for the pledge manager then no projects would get funded at all. I agree that there is nothing much in it for you personally to pledge after the last goal, but that's also a slightly selfish attitude (albeit a typical one). I consider the pledge manger to be something of a courtesy. If you already know what you are going to buy then you should try and pledge as much as you can before the end. It helps SPM to see what they've got to work with, and adds to the success of the project.

On the other hand, KS will probably take a bigger slice of pledges than whichever credit card company they use for the pledge manager

 Smacks wrote:

Bioptic wrote:
Genuine question - why is anybody pledging more than the base $100 at this point? It's confirmed that there will be a pledge manager later, nothing is pledge-time limited, and every single stretch goal has been reached.

Pledging in the future will help to split the cost, and there's a good chance that it will be on the basis of more information (updated shipping date, production samples, renders for the stuff we don't have yet etc.). Is it to take advantage of a weak Dollar? To make it easier to track the amount spent?

Some people also want to support the project. After all, that is what Kickstarter is about. If everyone just pledged $1 and waited for the pledge manager then no projects would get funded at all. I agree that there is nothing much in it for you personally to pledge after the last goal, but that's also a slightly selfish attitude (albeit a typical one). I consider the pledge manger to be something of a courtesy. If you already know what you are going to buy then you should try and pledge as much as you can before the end. It helps SPM to see what they've got to work with, and adds to the success of the project.

Selfish? Nonsense. You're spending MORE money. Perhaps folks can only front $100 this month and $100 more when the PM comes out. Or maybe they want to wait until they see some production models of some of the add ons. But selfish? Selfish? Really?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

Bioptic wrote:
Genuine question - why is anybody pledging more than the base $100 at this point? It's confirmed that there will be a pledge manager later, nothing is pledge-time limited, and every single stretch goal has been reached.

Pledging in the future will help to split the cost, and there's a good chance that it will be on the basis of more information (updated shipping date, production samples, renders for the stuff we don't have yet etc.). Is it to take advantage of a weak Dollar? To make it easier to track the amount spent?

Some people also want to support the project. After all, that is what Kickstarter is about. If everyone just pledged $1 and waited for the pledge manager then no projects would get funded at all. I agree that there is nothing much in it for you personally to pledge after the last goal, but that's also a slightly selfish attitude (albeit a typical one). I consider the pledge manger to be something of a courtesy. If you already know what you are going to buy then you should try and pledge as much as you can before the end. It helps SPM to see what they've got to work with, and adds to the success of the project.

Selfish? Nonsense. You're spending MORE money. Perhaps folks can only front $100 this month and $100 more when the PM comes out. Or maybe they want to wait until they see some production models of some of the add ons. But selfish? Selfish? Really?

Yes it is selfish, as in, lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

The point is, we're all selfish to some degree...

Your first point he addressed already saying - if you already know what you want then you should pledge as much as you *can*. Obviously if you don't have the money till next month, then you have, in fact, pledged as much as you could.

He's addressing the trend (whether real or imaginary) of people who pledge either $1 or the bare minimum, and then wait until everything is revealed after the kickstarter and pledge for $100s of dollars of extra merch. As opposed to people who put all of that money up front in the hopes that collectively everyone will do the same and unlock even more cool things to buy.

One person is taking less risk and attempting to maximize their own gain. One person is taking on more risk in the hopes that everyone (including themselves) will have more gain in the end. From that perspective, one person is being more selfish while the other person is helping the "community". But even there there is an element of selfishness as their is the hop & expectation of more stretch goals and more freebies. It's like how gift giving isn't really selfishness as we usually expect a gift back later, or some other reward.

Soda Pop is a for-profit company. If you think paying for their product sight unseen with no guarantees, seven months in advance is a sign of selfishness because they didn't do it eight months in advance, you are insane.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

Bioptic wrote:
Genuine question - why is anybody pledging more than the base $100 at this point? It's confirmed that there will be a pledge manager later, nothing is pledge-time limited, and every single stretch goal has been reached.

Pledging in the future will help to split the cost, and there's a good chance that it will be on the basis of more information (updated shipping date, production samples, renders for the stuff we don't have yet etc.). Is it to take advantage of a weak Dollar? To make it easier to track the amount spent?

Some people also want to support the project. After all, that is what Kickstarter is about. If everyone just pledged $1 and waited for the pledge manager then no projects would get funded at all. I agree that there is nothing much in it for you personally to pledge after the last goal, but that's also a slightly selfish attitude (albeit a typical one). I consider the pledge manger to be something of a courtesy. If you already know what you are going to buy then you should try and pledge as much as you can before the end. It helps SPM to see what they've got to work with, and adds to the success of the project.

Selfish? Nonsense. You're spending MORE money. Perhaps folks can only front $100 this month and $100 more when the PM comes out. Or maybe they want to wait until they see some production models of some of the add ons. But selfish? Selfish? Really?

Yes it is selfish, as in, lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

The point is, we're all selfish to some degree...

Your first point he addressed already saying - if you already know what you want then you should pledge as much as you *can*. Obviously if you don't have the money till next month, then you have, in fact, pledged as much as you could.

He's addressing the trend (whether real or imaginary) of people who pledge either $1 or the bare minimum, and then wait until everything is revealed after the kickstarter and pledge for $100s of dollars of extra merch. As opposed to people who put all of that money up front in the hopes that collectively everyone will do the same and unlock even more cool things to buy.

One person is taking less risk and attempting to maximize their own gain. One person is taking on more risk in the hopes that everyone (including themselves) will have more gain in the end. From that perspective, one person is being more selfish while the other person is helping the "community". But even there there is an element of selfishness as their is the hop & expectation of more stretch goals and more freebies. It's like how gift giving isn't really selfishness as we usually expect a gift back later, or some other reward.

Afraid that I'm still not quite following this. Sodapop has (according to their own calculations) received enough money to develop every single item and component that they set out to - the Kickstarter is a complete success. The backers are collectively benefiting from the maximum number of unlocked stretch goals possible. Pledging more money at this point rather than on the pledge manager is just doing the following: 1) giving Sodapop the money sooner, 2) making more of it disappear in Amazon & KS fees, 3) making a larger lump sum of cash leave your bank account/CC credit at once.

I'm sure that Sodapop would possibly like to have more money sooner, even if it means Kickstarter taking a larger percentage. But that is literally the only part of the equation where someone is 'missing out' - people even tend to spend more on pledge manager than they would through the Kickstarter! I'd actually say that it's better for the community collectively if money is only handed over when e.g. final sculpts are shown, otherwise you end up with year-long delays and models like this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights/posts/372140?page=2

Bioptic wrote:

Spoiler:

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

Bioptic wrote:
Genuine question - why is anybody pledging more than the base $100 at this point? It's confirmed that there will be a pledge manager later, nothing is pledge-time limited, and every single stretch goal has been reached.

Pledging in the future will help to split the cost, and there's a good chance that it will be on the basis of more information (updated shipping date, production samples, renders for the stuff we don't have yet etc.). Is it to take advantage of a weak Dollar? To make it easier to track the amount spent?

Some people also want to support the project. After all, that is what Kickstarter is about. If everyone just pledged $1 and waited for the pledge manager then no projects would get funded at all. I agree that there is nothing much in it for you personally to pledge after the last goal, but that's also a slightly selfish attitude (albeit a typical one). I consider the pledge manger to be something of a courtesy. If you already know what you are going to buy then you should try and pledge as much as you can before the end. It helps SPM to see what they've got to work with, and adds to the success of the project.

Selfish? Nonsense. You're spending MORE money. Perhaps folks can only front $100 this month and $100 more when the PM comes out. Or maybe they want to wait until they see some production models of some of the add ons. But selfish? Selfish? Really?

Yes it is selfish, as in, lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

The point is, we're all selfish to some degree...

Your first point he addressed already saying - if you already know what you want then you should pledge as much as you *can*. Obviously if you don't have the money till next month, then you have, in fact, pledged as much as you could.

He's addressing the trend (whether real or imaginary) of people who pledge either $1 or the bare minimum, and then wait until everything is revealed after the kickstarter and pledge for $100s of dollars of extra merch. As opposed to people who put all of that money up front in the hopes that collectively everyone will do the same and unlock even more cool things to buy.

One person is taking less risk and attempting to maximize their own gain. One person is taking on more risk in the hopes that everyone (including themselves) will have more gain in the end. From that perspective, one person is being more selfish while the other person is helping the "community". But even there there is an element of selfishness as their is the hop & expectation of more stretch goals and more freebies. It's like how gift giving isn't really selfishness as we usually expect a gift back later, or some other reward.

Afraid that I'm still not quite following this. Sodapop has (according to their own calculations) received enough money to develop every single item and component that they set out to - the Kickstarter is a complete success. The backers are collectively benefiting from the maximum number of unlocked stretch goals possible. Pledging more money at this point rather than on the pledge manager is just doing the following: 1) giving Sodapop the money sooner, 2) making more of it disappear in Amazon & KS fees, 3) making a larger lump sum of cash leave your bank account/CC credit at once.

I'm sure that Sodapop would possibly like to have more money sooner, even if it means Kickstarter taking a larger percentage. But that is literally the only part of the equation where someone is 'missing out' - people even tend to spend more on pledge manager than they would through the Kickstarter! I'd actually say that it's better for the community collectively if money is only handed over when e.g. final sculpts are shown, otherwise you end up with year-long delays and models like this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights/posts/372140?page=2

To be fair, Clown-Shoes McGee is the worst model they made from the kickstarter.

Bioptic wrote:

Afraid that I'm still not quite following this. Sodapop has (according to their own calculations) received enough money to develop every single item and component that they set out to - the Kickstarter is a complete success. The backers are collectively benefiting from the maximum number of unlocked stretch goals possible. Pledging more money at this point rather than on the pledge manager is just doing the following: 1) giving Sodapop the money sooner, 2) making more of it disappear in Amazon & KS fees, 3) making a larger lump sum of cash leave your bank account/CC credit at once.

I'm sure that Sodapop would possibly like to have more money sooner, even if it means Kickstarter taking a larger percentage. But that is literally the only part of the equation where someone is 'missing out' - people even tend to spend more on pledge manager than they would through the Kickstarter! I'd actually say that it's better for the community collectively if money is only handed over when e.g. final sculpts are shown, otherwise you end up with year-long delays and models like this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights/posts/372140?page=2

In this specific case I agree with you. I apologize I started drifting off and talking about kickstarters as a whole, and how people engage with them. You're very right - this KS is a different case because it's one of the rare ones that had an "end-point" where there is essentially nothing left to unlock. Every new backer that signs on whether they pledge $1 or $200 won't have any impact on the project and the rest of the backers. But I think this kickstarter is atypical.

Instead of derailing this thread yet again - lets all focus on the zombie bunny pet they've added as a surprise to the Stilt Town Warband:

Yeah, $100 base pledge for me. Was out, then they pulled me back in since it's a decent deal. I'll add more later in the Pledge Manager later if I feel like it.

~iPaint

Have pledged, even if it means I've no spare money for fun stuff till July

Between this and Arcadia Quest i will be drowning in chibi minis. Thinking i might be able to use the 'upgrade packs' from this and proxy in the arcadia quest monsters. Not a perfect fit stylistically but i'm sure it would work well enough.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

Yes it is selfish, as in, lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

The point is, we're all selfish to some degree...

Your first point he addressed already saying - if you already know what you want then you should pledge as much as you *can*. Obviously if you don't have the money till next month, then you have, in fact, pledged as much as you could.

You're being "selfish" by giving that money to SPM (a for-profit business) and not to charity.

It's a loaded word and a fething stupid argument.

This is turning into a very shellfish thread.




That was intentional.

Well, certainly some people have gotten a bit crabby of late.

In the end I went in for a bit of everything (completionist + paying off my credit card soon so this was a good time to lump it into that). It was their restrained stretch goals that sold me on the idea that maybe, just maybe, they'd learned from some previous miscues.

Granted, I'm not expecting to see this until probably sometime next summer, but now I don't have to bother with it. Think I'm done with KS projects for the foreseeable future too, barring something that's just incredibly cool (along the lines of DFG or KD:M) coming down the pike.

Nah, I just have a thing against stupidity and false arguments. I'm pretty good, actually.

I'm even so optimistic that I decided to risk $100 on this thing. I'd like to see a round of PM come up after they confirm the Aussie shipping one way or another.

Now let's just hope it turns up before Christmas 2015!

 Azazelx wrote:
Nah, I just have a thing against stupidity and false arguments.

There was nothing stupid or false about what he said. However you calling people stupid is clearly just ad hominem. You reflecting that giving money to SPM instead of charity is also selfish, is a tu quoque (really just more ad hominem)... after you did equivocation on the word 'selfish': taking it out of the context of crowd funding and into a wider definition. And the premise that you either give everything to charity or you're selfish is something of a false dichotomy to boot. I'm not sure if you said anything that wasn't a fallacy.

Anyway Mr Bitey is case in point. We got a further stretch goal after "the last" stretch goal. I'm sure if we hit 1.5 million then SPM would have been compelled to add even more. Everyone benefits from bumping up the total. Purposefully holding money back while relying on others to bump up the total is more self orientated and ultimately short sighted in the context of crowd funding. In a wider context it is 'why we can't have nice things'.

I didn't call him stupid. I called his argument stupid. Pull your head out.

I'm sick of the selfish entitlement mentality that comes out of people like yourself and other poster when others have personal reasons why they don't wish to pledge early and for as much as they possibly might. People like Cryptek and yourself can chide others for their spending choices when you pay for them yourselves. Until then, you can stick your selfish entitled mentality elsewhere.

It's crowdfunding a for-profit company. While it does allow these things to be produced, it's also a glorified pre-order. It's not charity. There's no higher purpose. It's not especially noble or special. Calling people selfish in this context is nothing but stupid and insulting, and in fact far more selfish - since he (and apparently you, too) only want more toys for free. So get off your high horse.

Nothing else was going to be unlocked anyway, so adding more money later via a pre-order would actually be doing SPM a favour (KS already made $100k (10%) out of this project so are hardly hard done by here).

 Azazelx wrote:
I'm sick of the selfish entitlement mentality that comes out of people like yourself and other poster when others have personal reasons why they don't wish to pledge early and for as much as they possibly might.

On the contrary, I was not dictating to anyone how they should spend their money. Bioptic in fact asked the question: why anyone would want to pledge more than $100 given that there was no direct personal gain. I simply responded that some people want to support the project, which is actually the whole point of crowd funding, and why it works.

So please don't tell me to get off a high horse. I'm not the one wading in, calling other people's conversations 'stupid', and hypocritically calling other people 'false' whilst making nothing even resembling a point and/or sense.

 Smacks wrote:
So please don't tell me to get off a high horse. I'm not the one wading in, calling other people's conversations 'stupid', and hypocritically calling other people 'false' whilst making nothing even resembling a point and/or sense.

No, you're the one calling people selfish for not adding bonuses to their pledge right this second.

Some of us can't afford to add stuff to the pledge, and I'd appreciate not being called selfish for not knowing whether I'll be able to afford them at some point in the future.

Let's read that again shall we?

 Goliath wrote:
Some of us can't afford to add stuff to the pledge, and I'd appreciate not being called selfish for not knowing whether I'll be able to afford them at some point in the future.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
Your first point he addressed already saying - if you already know what you want then you should pledge as much as you *can*. Obviously if you don't have the money till next month, then you have, in fact, pledged as much as you could.

 Smacks wrote:
If you already know what you are going to buy

No one called anyone selfish for not pledging more than they can afford. I merely said that deliberately withholding money that you know you are going to spend anyway until the last possible minute is more selfish than pledging as much as you can and boosting the total for everyone. Which it is.

That is not the same as withholding your pledge because you don't have money, or because you're not sure what you want yet.

If you want to take offense at things that were never said, then please do it quietly.

 Smacks wrote:
Let's read that again shall we?

 Goliath wrote:
Some of us can't afford to add stuff to the pledge, and I'd appreciate not being called selfish for not knowing whether I'll be able to afford them at some point in the future.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
Your first point he addressed already saying - if you already know what you want then you should pledge as much as you *can*. Obviously if you don't have the money till next month, then you have, in fact, pledged as much as you could.

 Smacks wrote:
If you already know what you are going to buy

No one called anyone selfish for not pledging more than they can afford. I merely said that deliberately withholding money that you know you are going to spend anyway until the last possible minute is more selfish than pledging as much as you can and boosting the total for everyone. Which it is.

That is not the same as withholding your pledge because you don't have money, or because you're not sure what you want yet.

If you want to take offense at things that were never said, then please do it quietly.

BS... Not all people hold the same value to things... Just because you are 'all in' and want the total to scream tot he stratosphere, others are skeptical of the value and may not want everything that you want. That is the funny thing... What you see as 300$ for excellent value, someone else may see a rip-off. Since almost the entirety of the stretch goals are barley less than a 5-7% discount from retail, and will all be available at retail, it isn't a good value for my money, both in the terms of giving an interest free loan to a company and my money being 'tied up' in a KS and other KS which may have KS only exclusives which require money 'right now'.

Yeah... So this KS, if someone wants to pledge 300$ for a completionist, that's cool... But to imply that my 100$ pledge is being selfish because I am not blindly boosting the total or waiting until the end to up my add-ons is insane as I have no obligation to you or Sodapop to like your pockets with minis faster. I am actually one who dislikes seeing KS over achieve and have massive scope creep because it harms the campaign. I explicitly held my add-on pledging to make sure I felt comfortable that they would have the funds to do all these run away stretch goals and provide information which makes me comfortable that they can deliver on those 'paper napkin' sketches at the end. I have seen plenty of KS become a victim of their own success where they really didn't collect money for their SG funding and got kinda crazy with designs and such. It is a deterrent and if this had ended in the 700ks with all those goals, I probably would not have backed add-ons or dropped my add-ons because they might have been too tight on the margins to reliably deliver them. Once they got to the slow goals and were intentionally putting the breaks on, it was clear they had reached what they could do and every penny after was to stabilize the project, not blindly add more swag for entitled people. That is when I decided to do add-ons.

So pledging big, Pledging early so you can get your swagpile bigger is not my responsibility and it is up to the company to make people want to support them, not have shills and fanatics yelling at commenters about 'You are harming the company if you don't pledge, you have an obligation to pledge, stop saying valid concerns you might hurt the pledges!"

This project was a bear because so many of the comments were even shillier and fanatical than mantic KSs, anyone who didn't blindly submit was attacked via the comments. Thank goodness Sodapop didn't listen to those people and actually answered the questions and helped address concerns opposed to letting fanatics put words in their mouths.

I like the lizards.

Will grab the warbands probably via the pledge manager. Needed to pledge for a bunch of other stuff this month.

April is serious business when it comes to Kickstarter around these parts!