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gungo wrote:

Rob451 wrote:

Nork can't benefit from the Deathmask because he can't take Heirlooms and only the wearer of the mask gets the Invuln save and saves are AFTER Look Out Sir so those 8 wounds go straight onto Nork who tanks 2 maybe 3 but still dies with wounds left over. He only gets to attack the target that kills him in Close Combat not from being burnt to death by a Heavy Flamer.

EDIT: Also Nork can't eat Strakens challenges. Heroic Interventions can only occur if a challenge goes on for more than one combat phase. Straken still MUST challenge and accept challenges and fight them for at least one combat phase. If he is still alive after that then Nork will automatically step in.

I dont see anywhere where it says nork cant take hierlooms.
The restrictions on the heirlooms are only:
Lord Commissar's: Emporer benediction
Company commanders: Laurels, reliquary, aquilla
No restriction: Blade of conquest, Deathmask

Look at the entry for the Company Command Squad. Under options it says "The Company Commander may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Heirlooms of Conquest lists". No such option exists for any of the special characters.

So as an opponent facing this Straken death star squad, which is well over 1/3 of a 1500 point army are you really going to ignore this thing to the point where you hit it with one blast the entire game?

With the two armies I play:
I'd welcome you toward me as Grey Knights who will proceed to shoot the living crap out of you once you get within 24" and then ignore your regular saves and FNP in CC and go first in every combat phase at int 4-6. We pack plenty of s6 flamers too haha. Even if you make it, the Chimera isn't an assault vehicle and you have to spend one turn outside of your metal box. Dreadknights also laugh at you.

As another guard army, there's plenty of anti-tank to pop that Chimera well inside your table half even with a 4+ invuln. Once that happens the sheer volume of fire toward a majority t3 (Nork's toughness is irrelevant when getting wounded) squad will just demolish them when their best possible save is a 3+ 4++ on a model you don't want to die first.

IF that squad can get into CC they will probably leave a dent in some armies, but not too many people worry about one Chimera, 4++ or not, rolling at them when it's not even an assault vehicle.

Straken is a beatstick for sure, but you can't dump 668 pts into a squad with a temperamental 4++ and majority t3. I see him being used more as a backfield counter assault unit than a gung-ho, leave my army behind, assault master. It's not killy enough or survivable enough to warrant such a massive point cost...

 rabidguineapig wrote:
So as an opponent facing this Straken death star squad, which is well over 1/3 of a 1500 point army are you really going to ignore this thing to the point where you hit it with one blast the entire game?

With the two armies I play:
I'd welcome you toward me as Grey Knights who will proceed to shoot the living crap out of you once you get within 24" and then ignore your regular saves and FNP in CC and go first in every combat phase at int 4-6. We pack plenty of s6 flamers too haha. Even if you make it, the Chimera isn't an assault vehicle and you have to spend one turn outside of your metal box. Dreadknights also laugh at you.

As another guard army, there's plenty of anti-tank to pop that Chimera well inside your table half even with a 4+ invuln. Once that happens the sheer volume of fire toward a majority t3 (Nork's toughness is irrelevant when getting wounded) squad will just demolish them when their best possible save is a 3+ 4++ on a model you don't want to die first.

IF that squad can get into CC they will probably leave a dent in some armies, but not too many people worry about one Chimera, 4++ or not, rolling at them when it's not even an assault vehicle.

Straken is a beatstick for sure, but you can't dump 668 pts into a squad with a temperamental 4++ and majority t3. I see him being used more as a backfield counter assault unit than a gung-ho, leave my army behind, assault master. It's not killy enough or survivable enough to warrant such a massive point cost...

True there are much better deathstars but its fun to play with.

The problem with all beatstick characters is the delivery system. Orks don't care as all their transports are open topped. Space Marines have Landraiders and jump packs as do CSM. Nids can fly and Dark Eldar also have open-topped transports that are fast.

Imperial Guard have nothing that can reliably get a Beatstick character close enough to the enemy before they get shot off the board. Had Straken been an IC and not in a Command Squad then a blob of Fearless conscripts would be a fine place to put him.

A beatstick character in a Guard list is for counter-assault. Let them come to you and hide behind the Aegis until it's time to fix bayonets.

So to summerise some of the good combo, please free to add;
•Pask + punisher + Leman Russ XYZ
•Divination primiarus + (anything in need or twin-linked or possibly ignores cover)
•Priest + 20 conscripts (20 fearless wounds?!)
•Powerblobs
•Ogryns in Valks(It's now possible...)
•Cheaper Russes
•Wyvern Battery (Unsung hero IMHO)
•Orders (& Tank Orders, Priest/commissar stuff for some decent force multipliers)

I know some of these are just X rather than a pure combo but worth mentioning I feel.

Rob451 wrote:

gungo wrote:

Rob451 wrote:

Nork can't benefit from the Deathmask because he can't take Heirlooms and only the wearer of the mask gets the Invuln save and saves are AFTER Look Out Sir so those 8 wounds go straight onto Nork who tanks 2 maybe 3 but still dies with wounds left over. He only gets to attack the target that kills him in Close Combat not from being burnt to death by a Heavy Flamer.

EDIT: Also Nork can't eat Strakens challenges. Heroic Interventions can only occur if a challenge goes on for more than one combat phase. Straken still MUST challenge and accept challenges and fight them for at least one combat phase. If he is still alive after that then Nork will automatically step in.

I dont see anywhere where it says nork cant take hierlooms.
The restrictions on the heirlooms are only:
Lord Commissar's: Emporer benediction
Company commanders: Laurels, reliquary, aquilla
No restriction: Blade of conquest, Deathmask

Look at the entry for the Company Command Squad. Under options it says "The Company Commander may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Heirlooms of Conquest lists". No such option exists for any of the special characters.

Ya I thought it was upgrades for the company command squad with straken replacing the company command squad and nork and the advisors joining it.
It was a weak attempt to theorycraft a deathstar for guards. I still think Nork is a good special to protect your characters and better priced then most ogryns.

As a point of reference: Chimera spam in 1500:

CCS - Chimera - 125

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

75 points left for whatever. Not quite as good as last edition where every squad would have a Melta Gun.

 Paradigm wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
36pts for 6 guys

It's also worth noting that, apart from bare henchmen, I think that's the cheapest scoring unit in the game, which may count for something. I've found small, empty henchmen squads useful as they just get ignored, so maybe this is the IG's equivalent.

There are a lot of cheap scoring units in the game, 3 DE Wracks is 30 points, T4 and has FNP. Many DE players get them to unlock a transport and then have them run around the backfield or camp an objective......At least they use to, when DE were semi competitive.

Still 36 points isn't much to spend on a scoring unit.

Yeah, maybe people are overplaying the need for psykers, especially for foot guard. I mean, how many squads really need to have prescience simultaneously? Also, I'd agree that relying on them is bad. As we've been saying, the trick is to get use out of these Ld-based buffs without also coming to rely on them. If you need a psychic power to go off for things to work right, then that's the moment you're going to roll a 10 or an 11...

So how about...

Yarrick

3x priests
2x commissars
primaris psyker - level 2

PCS - 2x melta, krak grenades
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

PCS - 2x melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

PCS - 2x melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

For 1850

Now we're talking about 322 models. That might just do it - the extra casualties you get from the displacement nightmare might not be enough to make up for the sheer number of bodies.

I still don't know how this would work against wave serpent spam, what with the anti-tank problems, but damn if that isn't a lot of guardsmen to chew through, and everything that's not a vehicle says hello to lasguns.


Of course, the biggest problem with this is that it's absurd. I don't own 322 guard models, and I'm just trying to unpack, deploy, and, well, play it all.

Wow, that is a lot of bodies. I don't know how easy it will be to fit them all in your deployment zone. Wave serpents should have some problems as there will be no where for them to run from the wave of bodies, which can just frag grenade them to death.

In this case, no frag grenading.

I guess the list DOES have a lot of meltaguns, so it's not completely pointless against tanks.

Razerous wrote:
So to summerise some of the good combo, please free to add;
•Pask + punisher + Leman Russ XYZ
•Divination primiarus + (anything in need or twin-linked or possibly ignores cover)
•Priest + 20 conscripts (20 fearless wounds?!)
•Powerblobs
•Ogryns in Valks(It's now possible...)
•Cheaper Russes
•Wyvern Battery (Unsung hero IMHO)
•Orders (& Tank Orders, Priest/commissar stuff for some decent force multipliers)

I know some of these are just X rather than a pure combo but worth mentioning I feel.

I'd add:

cheap, scoring Sniper SWS/PCS
Scions platoons dropping around an augur
Cheaper drive'n'drop Grenadier Vets.

Ok, here's my first attempt at a list. Please excuse any off points values, I've not got the codex in-hand yet.

Foot Guard, 1500:

HQ:

CCS, Carapace, Lascannon: 90

Priest x3: 75

Primaris: 50
Primaris: 50

Troops

Platoon 1:
PCS, 4 Flamers: 50

PIS, melta: 60
PIS, melta: 60
PIS, melta: 60

40 Conscripts: 120

SWS, 3x Sniper: 36
SWS, 3x Sniper: 36


Platoon 2:
PCS, 4 Flamers: 50
Commissar

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

40 Conscripts: 120

SWS, 3x Sniper: 36
SWS, 3x Sniper: 36


Veterans, Carapace, 3x Plasma: 115

Veterans, Carapace, 3x Plasma: 115

ADL, Quad Gun: 100
1494



The general plan:
The Commissar attached to the Lascannon blob. which sit behind the ADL with the Veterans. The Conscripts move up side-by-side, in front on the Melta blob, with priests attached to each. The SWS move up on the flanks for vantage points or hide as needed. Psykers go in the Lascannon and Melta blobs.

It's not as many bodies as some lists throw down, but every unit is capable of doing damage, while none are a pivotal enough to scream ''shoot me!'. Small and big units give a balance between target overload and return on buffs.

Movement trays, man. I'd drop one of those platoons for meltabombs on all the Sgts, and strip any gear off the PCS. You've still got like 220 guys, but you get 500 or so points of Leman Russes to beat on stuff. I think the lower number with support is actually more durable over the course of the game than the higher number.

I don't see all the fuss over the Sniper SWS.

I can barely understand taking them for the extremely cheap backboard scoring unit, but here's my 3 main issues:

1) If you're fielding a Heavy Weapon platoon blob, there's literally no point because the only real thing you're getting is 3 unimpressive BS3 shots.

2) Why not just field a HWS with Lascannon/Autocannon, now we can give out ignores cover/monster hunter like candy, these seem the better long range fire+scoring alternative.

Just shove one of the spare Commissars/Priests in it to eliminate the morale issue.

3) Really, if you want Snipers, why aren't you just taking Ratlings? They're cheaper for 3 Rifles and have BS4, so are on the end of the scale that is further away from well, mediocrity really.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I don't see all the fuss over the Sniper SWS.

I can barely understand taking them for the extremely cheap backboard scoring unit, but here's my 3 main issues:

1) If you're fielding a Heavy Weapon platoon blob, there's literally no point because the only real thing you're getting is 3 unimpressive BS3 shots.

2) Why not just field a HWS with Lascannon/Autocannon, now we can give out ignores cover/monster hunter like candy, these seem the better long range fire+scoring alternative.

Just shove one of the spare Commissars/Priests in it to eliminate the morale issue.

3) Really, if you want Snipers, why aren't you just taking Ratlings? They're cheaper and have BS4, so are on the end of the scale that is further away from well, mediocrity really.

In any case, the precision shot order means we can have everyone in the receiving unit snipe to an extent.

 Ailaros wrote:
In this case, no frag grenading.

I guess the list DOES have a lot of meltaguns, so it's not completely pointless against tanks.

Did I make the same mistake again? Why do I keep thinking that frag grenades are s4? Was that a 5th edition rule or something?

Yes, that's how it used to work.

And if it worked that way, well, no problems. The only S4 solution was allying in inquisitors.

And I don't know if cutting the number of troops by a third to give them better weapons is going to be the way to go. If your opponent can clear off 40 guardsmen in a single turn, you'll wind up at turn 5 being tabled (and probably have lost an awful lot of your combat effectiveness before then). With over 300 models, your opponent can shoot them for 5 turns... and you still have an entire guard army on the table.

I'm thinking this might be a problem with the support units as well. It's really, really easy to blow 400 points on a big pile of priests and commissars and psykers and allied psykers, etc. etc. etc. and while those support units are good, and individually cheap, they cause nickel and diming problems like crazy.

I'm almost wondering if it isn't worthwhile to skimp on the mass leadership. If your squads in the back don't have a priest or commissar, then they've still got to take a pretty decent chunk of casualties before they make their first morale test, and if those leadership-vulnerable squads are in the back, that means the guys in front aren't getting shot. I suppose they'd still be vulnerable to a few sniper rifles forcing pinning checks, though.

 Kain wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I don't see all the fuss over the Sniper SWS.

I can barely understand taking them for the extremely cheap backboard scoring unit, but here's my 3 main issues:

1) If you're fielding a Heavy Weapon platoon blob, there's literally no point because the only real thing you're getting is 3 unimpressive BS3 shots.

2) Why not just field a HWS with Lascannon/Autocannon, now we can give out ignores cover/monster hunter like candy, these seem the better long range fire+scoring alternative.

Just shove one of the spare Commissars/Priests in it to eliminate the morale issue.

3) Really, if you want Snipers, why aren't you just taking Ratlings? They're cheaper and have BS4, so are on the end of the scale that is further away from well, mediocrity really.

In any case, the precision shot order means we can have everyone in the receiving unit snipe to an extent.

It's more a case of they are the cheapest scoring unit we have in-codex (A HWT running off is a fairly large loss, a Sniper SWS is expendable), they are easily overlooked (in which case they score) and they can potentially do some damage.

I agree Ratlings are better as Snipers, but aren't scoring. Autocannons/LAscannon teams are too much of an expenditure for what we need (an expendable unit)

 Mr.Omega wrote:
snip.

36pts for 6 models

And HWS are a pain to place.

I guess we shall see

Re: 200 guys + tanks vs. 300 guys

I don't think an enemy will be able to take off 40 guys a turn, every turn. Maybe the first turn, if they brought the right stuff, but you start degrading his firepower on turn 1 also (well, you do if you brought some tanks or artillery). Very few crazy-high firepower units are THAT durable per point, they're mostly artillery type units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: Sniper SWS

They're about half the price of a HWS, and almost twice as hard to kill (long range stuff is almost always S6 or higher), and more resistant to morale checks from shooting casualties. It makes them much better at scoring.

Biophysical wrote:
Re: 200 guys + tanks vs. 300 guys

I don't think an enemy will be able to take off 40 guys a turn, every turn. Maybe the first turn, if they brought the right stuff, but you start degrading his firepower on turn 1 also (well, you do if you brought some tanks or artillery). Very few crazy-high firepower units are THAT durable per point, they're mostly artillery type units.

This is rather army dependent. Eldar and Tau can definitely do this, SM lists packing TFCs can do this, DE can do this (T1 anyway). Just off the top of my head. Oh, any any Guard army you're facing can do this to another Guard player.

Biophysical wrote:
Re: 200 guys + tanks vs. 300 guys

I don't think an enemy will be able to take off 40 guys a turn, every turn. Maybe the first turn, if they brought the right stuff, but you start degrading his firepower on turn 1 also (well, you do if you brought some tanks or artillery). Very few crazy-high firepower units are THAT durable per point, they're mostly artillery type units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: Sniper SWS

They're about half the price of a HWS, and almost twice as hard to kill (long range stuff is almost always S6 or higher), and more resistant to morale checks from shooting casualties. It makes them much better at scoring.

Believe me, IG can cut such sum of squishy guardsmen every turn. And not only IG.

I agree with SWS, its interesting. Not top tier if you build really tournament list, but definetly not "and now something just for fun and I dont care I lose". For the 36 points its interesting, as you said - scoring option. They can annoy key units and if they are targeted, its not so big loss. I will definetly try them and juggle with orders.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I don't see all the fuss over the Sniper SWS.

I can barely understand taking them for the extremely cheap backboard scoring unit, but here's my 3 main issues:

1) If you're fielding a Heavy Weapon platoon blob, there's literally no point because the only real thing you're getting is 3 unimpressive BS3 shots.

2) Why not just field a HWS with Lascannon/Autocannon, now we can give out ignores cover/monster hunter like candy, these seem the better long range fire+scoring alternative.

Just shove one of the spare Commissars/Priests in it to eliminate the morale issue.

3) Really, if you want Snipers, why aren't you just taking Ratlings? They're cheaper and have BS4, so are on the end of the scale that is further away from well, mediocrity really.

In any case, the precision shot order means we can have everyone in the receiving unit snipe to an extent.

It's more a case of they are the cheapest scoring unit we have in-codex (A HWT running off is a fairly large loss, a Sniper SWS is expendable), they are easily overlooked (in which case they score) and they can potentially do some damage.

I agree Ratlings are better as Snipers, but aren't scoring. Autocannons/LAscannon teams are too much of an expenditure for what we need (an expendable unit)

On that note, I'm eager to see the look on somebody's face when a conscript blob precision shots their precious grimoire holder out of a screamer star.

Should be hilarious.

Rob451 wrote:
As a point of reference: Chimera spam in 1500:

CCS - Chimera - 125

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

PCS - Chimera - 95
PIS - Chimera - 115
PIS - Chimera - 115

75 points left for whatever. Not quite as good as last edition where every squad would have a Melta Gun.

As a counterpoint to my own Chimera Spam List: Taurox Spam

CCS - Chimera (Because Orders), Banner - 140

PCS - Taurox, 4xMelta - 120
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110

PCS - Taurox, 4xMelta - 120
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110

PCS - Taurox, 4xMelta - 120
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110

PCS - Taurox, 4xMelta - 120
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110
PIS - Taurox, Melta - 110

1500 on the nose. Same number of units on the board but with S7 not S6 and Melta guns for everyone.

I see that, for the most part, the community is still coming up with ideas for running thus codex on it's own. Has anyone started looking at using allies beyond and inquisitor or two?

 l0k1 wrote:
I see that, for the most part, the community is still coming up with ideas for running thus codex on it's own. Has anyone started looking at using allies beyond and inquisitor or two?

I like the idea of allying in a Scion command and two Scion units. Gives you backfield disruption and scoring. Guard have lost a lot of their outflanking potential, so allies should be used to get scoring units up the field.

Gonna wade in here - I've not played in a while, but I love theorizing about this stuff.

A build that seems like it could work for a nice 1-2 punch would be having 2 squadrons of russes, 1 all-punisher with pask and a DS homer, the other all-vanquisher.

Put a conscript blob (you choose the size) with a primaris and a priest as bubble wrap for the vanquisher squadron. it's a pretty cheap way to get very durable bubble wrap, and if you get your powers off, that's a lot of twin-linked anti-tank. The squadron advances at walking speed, killing off everything in sight with an armor value or 2+ save.

Meanwhile, the pask squadron charges about high-speed turn 1, either getting closer to the foe or moving round a flank for better firing angles. Their bubble-wrap comes in the form of deepstriking scions. Choose for your own play style whether you want to discourage people from coming into melta range, keep 'em cheap for a physical exclusion zone, or load for bear with plasmas and meltas to round off the carnage wrought by Pask's team.

hold the backfield with a vet squad (for the 2nd troops choice), a CCS with MotF, and a 30-strong blob with commissar, lascannons and an ageis. Maybe throw in a few of those penny-packet SWS' that have been on people's radar.

The backfield team is there to use ignore cover orders to hurt anything they can see, and also to give the impression of a standard guard firebase of "stay out of their firing lanes" proportions. Maybe throw in a couple of sabres for the same reason.

All in all, you have powerful anti-tank, powerful anti-infantry, and probably a buttload of weaknesses... But it's not especially gimmicky, mainly based on core IG units, ally-free, and hopefully quite cost-effective as a base for an army.

Since I don't have a 'dex yet, I can't get a strong estimate on what that might cost... and I kept the numbers very vague intentionally. It seems like you could scale a build like this from 1k upwards depending on the size of your scion team and tank squadrons.

To me it seems like it could be viable, since although it does hope for good rolls (who doesn't), it's not built in the hope of passing 3 Ld tests in a row for the same unit in order to achieve its goals. admittedly the scion bubble wrap dropping in when needed to defend the offensive tanks might be hoping for too much, so perhaps they're better off in chimeras, or replaced by mechvets.


Anyone got any opinions?

With the decrease in cost to Vanquishers, I find it difficult to justify not taking a double vanquisher squadron, each with a lascannon. Thats 2 S9 AP 2 shots, and 2 S8 + 2D6 Ap 2 shots a turn, capable of putting wounds on MCs/Terminators at range, and can threaten Landraiders & Monoliths at range. As long as you don't roll poorly, you should be deleting or maiming a vehicle a turn with a squadron of them, and at 290 for the pair, its not consuming an absurd amount of your list either.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
So as an opponent facing this Straken death star squad, which is well over 1/3 of a 1500 point army are you really going to ignore this thing to the point where you hit it with one blast the entire game?

Practically speaking yes. However, I don't think anyone seriously takes a Straken deathstar with the intention of winning, and it may be more fun to just charge into it and see what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttons wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:
So as an opponent facing this Straken death star squad, which is well over 1/3 of a 1500 point army are you really going to ignore this thing to the point where you hit it with one blast the entire game?

Practically speaking yes. However, I don't think anyone seriously takes a Straken deathstar with the intention of winning, and it may be more fun to just charge into it and see what happens.

I am going to add another vanquisher with pask to my list for more than just flavour now. Rerolls to hit with BS 4 and rerolls to penetrate with a vanquisher? Practically might as well just say that it penned and save yourself some rolling.

I like these mass infantry lists.

Although, I really think you want to go down the path of adepta sororitas allies and inquisition.

chunks of conscripts with a sprinkles of uriah,

or 50 conscripts, priest, inqisitor w. liber hereticus, rad grenades, hammer hand

I also think that the true strength of the codex is figuring out how to exploit divination and orders.

To me the obvious combos are:

Prescience + Manticores

Perfect timing + Executioners + plasma sponsons
(pask helps here in a punisher)

Fire on my target + special weapon squads + 3 demo charges

Fire on my target + blob + 3 priests w. plasma guns, 5 plasma guns, 5 lascanonons, aegis

Take Aim + 50 Conscripts + priest

First Rank Fire, Second Rank fire + Scions

Misfourtune + Wyverns (or dakka russes) (or thudd guns)

Also, you could go biomancy + blobs + dark angel + inquisition and go for enfeeble, rad grenade launchers, and inq with rad grenades for wierd oblitting combos.