Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover (IIRC).

Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?

Yep, it's 10 points for anyone with access to "special issue equipment".

 daedalus wrote:
Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover (IIRC).

Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?

yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.

not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.

combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.

same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.

If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.


personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(

I'm going home, but I wanted to post this to see what people thought. I'm not sure how serious I am about it, but I thought I would clown around with the codex a little.

Shrike, Ahazra Redth (FW), 50 guardsmen with 5 plasma, 5 priests with 5 plasma guns, 5 plasma pistols
975 points.

57 bodies, 25 plasma shots within 12". It's a troop choice with a psyker with access to Divination and Telepathy. it has a 2+ cover save in terrain, and a 4+ save in the open. Oh, and it can infiltrate.

You can't shoot 50 bodies with 2+ cover saves directly very well. You can't exactly assault it, especially if you dump extra points for power weapons, and I'm not sure about yours, but my meta doesn't include lots of flamers....

My question, can anyone do it cheaper and better?

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah. He has only a 1 in 12 chance to kill himself per shot, and the reason why you put a priest in a mech PIS isn't to give them fearless - they'll get wiped out long before they have to worry about leadership, and you don't make many pinning checks in a transport.

The priest does two things. The first, as mentioned, is to give a mech PIS a second special weapon to shoot out the hatch. The second is that it's a cheap way (not counting the plasma gun) to give the squad extra oomph once it gets somewhere.

It seems to me that the point of having a big swarm of infantry squads in chimeras is going to involve them swarming somewhere and likely getting out, which the priest will help better with.

Not so much for vets, who don't need the extra slot, and are going to be used much more defensively and prefer not to leave their ride at all.

I need to do the math here, but I'm almost certain with such a tiny squad of S3 dudes, his best bet is to take a mace and give himself smash for the 3-4 S5AP2 attacks rather than trying to buff the squad.

40 points to have a second special weapon to shoot at BS3, is not a good use of points. Heck, for 50 points you could have a primaris psyker ML1, take the primaris in biomancy and get 4 shots at S4 AP2. Perils is a lot less likely than Gets Hot.

Oh fudge, the change to camo gear means the Lord Commissar's magic cloak that hides an entire massive block of infantry no longer works. Not that I ever did that anyway.

 Raxmei wrote:
Oh fudge, the change to camo gear means the Lord Commissar's magic cloak that hides an entire massive block of infantry no longer works. Not that I ever did that anyway.

That combo is probably why it changed too.

Priest doesn't get a mace. Too bad.

Biophysical wrote:
Priest doesn't get a mace. Too bad.

Wow... my mistake. leave it to GW to give three armies a model with the same statline, abilities, and name and then make their options different. The inquisition one isn't an IC, the guard one can't take the full selection of melee weapons. Although if you activate smash and make the special attack you still get S6 AP2, you just lose an attack in the process.

Yeah, the inability to take priest melee options is a huge drag.

But don't gripe about how they can't take power maces. That's a flashlight with dying batteries next to the horrid, blazing inferno of how they lost eviscerators.

Well, at least they strike at ST6 AP2 AND...at initiative 3 as well.

Granted Init 3 is nothing to sneeze at..but know alot of AP2 weapons at hit at init 3?

They're the 40kiest of all weapons.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, the inability to take priest melee options is a huge drag.

But don't gripe about how they can't take power maces. That's a flashlight with dying batteries next to the horrid, blazing inferno of how they lost eviscerators.

I used to think that way too, but I'm coming to the realization that maces may just be better if you're going to Smash. The only thing I could see is if the +2 gets added in before the x2, then you're only getting S8 AP2 instead of S10 AP2, but you're getting it at initiative. Just think... a month ago, I still thought taking melta bombs on a priest was a good way to fight a knight...

I just re-read the BRB FAQ today. I had been operating on the assumption that you only got 2 Smashing Attacks ever... I was wrong.

Q: The rulebook says that you halve your Attacks characteristic if you perform a Smash attack. However, if a Monstrous Creature has an uneven number of Attacks, (3 for example), but has charged that turn, does it receive the bonus Attack for charging before or after halving its Attacks? (p42)
A: You halve the model’s Attacks characteristic first, then apply any additional modifiers. In the example above, the model would halve its Attacks first (rounding up to 2), then receive a bonus Attack for charging

Sadly priests only get 2 attacks base, but they do have two weapons and can charge for an extra +1, meaning 3 Smash Attacks per priest. Smashing attacks also lets them re-roll attempts to penetrate. Now... thinking about it, I'm thinking the mace only gets them to S8 (+2 added after doubling, right?)... getting them to S10 would be hard, but 3 S8 AP2 attacks, reroll to pen will make a lot of vehicles sad.

Their max theoretical, I spent too many points on this configuration would get them to 4 S10 AP2 attacks per turn. At that point they do on average 4 * .75 * 8/9 = 2 2/3 (glancing + pen) + 4 * .75 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 2 (destroyed result) 1 1/3, 4 HP to a knight on a charge each. At I3, which means no stomp if you kill it. Yeah... guard got the short end of this stick with the inability to give them a proper melee weapon (since the guard version can never be strong enough to hurt a knight in melee). Of course if an opponent let me knock over his knight with 2 priests' worth of melee attacks... well, it would probably be because he thought the melta guns in nearby units were the real threat.

Is there a way to give non-IC priests or a guard blob furious charge? The only thing I can think of right now is Celestians with their act of faith, but that only works on AM and SoB priests not in the inquisition guys, which someone limits the number of priests. (I find with units like this that require multiple buffs, redundancy might be important.)

You can take a inquisitor and give them hammerhand(which kicks in before multipliers)

Kor'sarro Khan.

 Leth wrote:
You can take a inquisitor and give them hammerhand(which kicks in before multipliers)

I thought it didn't? If it does, that fixes everything. Of course if the mace kicks in before multipliers that makes them not dependent on anything except random troops to eat blows for them (yay, 1 million guardsmen!!) and someone with a Ld score better than 7 (the inquisitor also solves that one).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually the inquisitor means the IG priests can also get their smashing attacks to respectable levels.

Remember, with pile in, you only need to be about 4-5" away from the enemy after the charge. Just close enough to get within 2" of a model actually in base to base after you pile in 3" more.

Mavnas - Priest can take mace...he just have close combat weapon, which means S3

It used to be that hammerhand was before multipliers(In the GK book). However not sure since the wording in inquisition is different.

I think it still does because it modifies the profile, not a addition

Mavnas wrote:

 Leth wrote:
You can take a inquisitor and give them hammerhand(which kicks in before multipliers)

I thought it didn't? If it does, that fixes everything. Of course if the mace kicks in before multipliers that makes them not dependent on anything except random troops to eat blows for them (yay, 1 million guardsmen!!) and someone with a Ld score better than 7 (the inquisitor also solves that one).

I believe the hammerhand confusion comes from the fact that hammerhand in codex:grey knights kicks in before multipliers and hammerhand from codex:inquisition kicks in after multipliers.

So, thinking about the bolters in the other thread, I was just thinking about plasma pistols. Yes, they got more expensive, and yes, you can no longer dual wield them for great justice, and yes, you no longer have an extra chimera slot to fire out of with a vet squad...

But what about for mech platoons? You only have two fire ports, but you also only have one special weapon. Would it be worth the cost in this case?

 Ailaros wrote:
So, thinking about the bolters in the other thread, I was just thinking about plasma pistols. Yes, they got more expensive, and yes, you can no longer dual wield them for great justice, and yes, you no longer have an extra chimera slot to fire out of with a vet squad...

But what about for mech platoons? You only have two fire ports, but you also only have one special weapon. Would it be worth the cost in this case?

If it was on a bs4 model or better, maybe. A bs 3 sgt in a pis, hell no.
I'm not going to pay premium prices just to help my enemy kill my troops.
Being in a mech pis there's probably less of a chance for a reroll.

I would rather spend less points and snap fire an autocannon than fire a plasma pistol.

 easysauce wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover (IIRC).

Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?

yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.

not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.

combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.

same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.

If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.


personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(

Thought about using scouts?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover (IIRC).

Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?

yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.

not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.

combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.

same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.

If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.


personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(

Thought about using scouts?

If they weren't so "SM scout" looking, I'd agree. Another, expensive option could be using the new Scions with different arms. But it could get pricey fast.

Go with forgeworld Cadian Hostile Environment troopers, those guys are perfect for carapace troopers. You could also take the gas masks you get with the command box and have those signify use of Carapace. If you combine a gas mask from the Command box and the "sunglasses" cadian head from the Heavy Weapon box, it looks much like a Kasrkin visored head, giving it the carapace look.

You could also go with 3rd party chests or heads. Not sure how anal your LGS is about things like that.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover (IIRC).

Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?

yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.

not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.

combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.

same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.

If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.


personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(

Thought about using scouts?

If they weren't so "SM scout" looking, I'd agree. Another, expensive option could be using the new Scions with different arms. But it could get pricey fast.

I don't have pictures...looked for a while...but it's pretty easy to de-SM them by shaving off the chest eagles, swapping heads, and adding some pouches to cover the chest pieces.

Think something like this (pic not mine):

For the PIS, you're talking about a model that can get precise shot with a plasma pistol, and puts out a lot more firepower at close range for the squad firing out the hatch.

And yeah, vet doctrines are so cheap now, that I could easily see people doubling up both camo cloaks and carapace armor, which makes SM scouts a great model to start with.

Your basically paying 8.5 points for a model that has Camo Cloaks , 4+ armour which is a pretty good deal honestly.

Hollismason wrote:
Your basically paying 8.5 points for a model that has Camo Cloaks , 4+ armour which is a pretty good deal honestly.

The problem is that model only has a humble lasgun.

Yes, but he's an abblative shield for 3 guys with plasma guns and two guys with a lascannon.