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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 11:01:58
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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KorPhaeron77 wrote:
4th: If the Imperium didn't kill the Eldar as often as they helped them, the Eldar might be more willing to negotiate. Yes, the Eldar are racist as crap, but they don't have a "kill all lesser races" policy. They also aren't stupid enough to pick a fight where no fight is necessary. Experience has taught them that the Imperium will only cooperate when an ax is hanging over both their heads. Also, this isn't limited to just the Eldar or Tau. There have been many other lesser alien races in the 40k universe that would have been more agreeable to an alliance. The Imperium has hunted most of them to extinction and turned the rest into enemies.
Yeah I believe it was the Diasporex who were a civilisation of humans AND various xenos that had found a way to peacefully co-exist. The IOM shows up and says to the humans, abandon your Xenos and the rest of you can live. They obviously disagree because selling out their friends to some new bully is a idiot thing to do. The Imperium then wages a war of extermination against them, not bothering to learn how their civilisation works or their history. Just deciding that all xenos are bad so must die. Do the Diasporex prove their tricksy ways and defend themselves? No, they try to peacefully leave Imperial space until the Emperor's Children and Iron Hands trap them in system and massacre them. Ok well at least they're under the light of the Emperor now right? Nooope all of the aliens get exterminated on the spot and all of the humans are enslaved, for commiting a crime against a man that they had never even heard of before. Way to go for enlightnenment Imperium. The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone".
The tragedy of the 40K Imperium is not that peaceful co-existence with aliens (at least some aliens) is inherently impossible but that humanity has screwed up its own chances at peace because of the trauma it suffered at the hands of some aliens in the past. In 40K, humans are the ones with a reputation for zealous fanaticism, being untrustworthy (since things said to aliens are counted as having no weight), and conducting unwarranted genocide in the name of manifest destiny. Yes, some aliens are nasty, but there are many minor alien species out there and some of these are just minding their own business. If they hear about this nasty Imperium, with its long history of "shoot first", are they likely to greet humans with open arms? This creates a vicious cycle where humans meet hostile aliens, when they might have turned hostile due to humanity's own reputation preceding it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 11:20:33
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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baxter123 wrote:I have only read the OP, but has anyone brought this up?
In the rulebook Annals section it recounts the Age of Technology, where the entire new age of Mankind collapsed into the warp, and basically was ripped apart by the very force it intended to use to make it great again. Most technology was lost to the times and many worlds were consumed with madness and death. Many worlds were tainted into mutants and others were simply forgotten in the vaccum of space.
It wasn't until the Emperor came that Terra and Mankind began to begin anew. The Emperor allowed space travel to begin and mankind began to rebuild their great civilization from the ashes of their old one. The Emperor united the rival factions of Terra and the Mars techpriests into one unstoppable force aided by the Space Marines. Now some would say that 'Oh no, without the Space Marines the Horus Heresy wouldn't happen and humanity would be safe' in fact its the other way around. The Imperial Army and the Space Marines together formed an unstoppable force that claimed many thousands of worlds in a short span of time, that would never have been possible if it weren't for the Emperors guidance. The Space Marines created by the Emperor were the reason for worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind. In many respects mankind was allowed to exist BECAUSE of the Emperor, and it wasn't really his fault that drove the legions of Horus, Logar and the others of the Chaos Heresy force to rebel and almost tear the Imperium asunder, nor was it his fault that the Imperium turned into a ruthless, cold hearted machine of fury and vengeance. He merely guided humanity into the light of unification and tried to put them into the light. He was put onto the throne to be the beacon of hope against the darkness of space and the warp and didn't force mankind to worship him with religious zeal nor did he influence any of their decisions of the High Lords of Terra nor did he form the Ecclarisary. Everything since his slaining at the hands of Horus has been the decisions of the mortal man, and no one else, for he is now a rotting carcass tortured into service to be a beacon of hope for mankind. What mankind does to itself he can only watch helplessly, for he provided the foundations for the Empire, but he gave them power to begin anew and they had the potential, but misused it like so many of our real world companions and dictators have done.
In response to the aliens and xenos, who wouldn't be afraid of aliens and subhumans that view us as a threat and try to kill us? Some of them may have come harmlessly, but we had to view all other non-human races AS well as humans with prejudice because that was the only way mankind could trust the stars, because they didn't want to have potential enemies staring them in the face and backstabbing them at their weakest. Psykers as well were ill trained and the Emperor saw this horrible fate that awaited non-trained psykers and their endless torment if they misused their powers and got possessed by demons, because he saw into the warp space and saw the enemy staring back at him. Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible. When this couldn't be achieved he tried to ban it for he saw the dangers were anifesting at atrocious rates and that many pyskers were becoming needle points for the Heresy, subconsciously joining Horus's forces in the heresy.
Sweet merciful hive mind the text wall!
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 11:47:40
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge
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baxter123 wrote:I have only read the OP, but has anyone brought this up?
In the rulebook Annals section it recounts the Age of Technology, where the entire new age of Mankind collapsed into the warp, and basically was ripped apart by the very force it intended to use to make it great again. Most technology was lost to the times and many worlds were consumed with madness and death. Many worlds were tainted into mutants and others were simply forgotten in the vaccum of space.
It wasn't until the Emperor came that Terra and Mankind began to begin anew. The Emperor allowed space travel to begin and mankind began to rebuild their great civilization from the ashes of their old one. The Emperor united the rival factions of Terra and the Mars techpriests into one unstoppable force aided by the Space Marines. Now some would say that 'Oh no, without the Space Marines the Horus Heresy wouldn't happen and humanity would be safe' in fact its the other way around. The Imperial Army and the Space Marines together formed an unstoppable force that claimed many thousands of worlds in a short span of time, that would never have been possible if it weren't for the Emperors guidance. The Space Marines created by the Emperor were the reason for worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind. In many respects mankind was allowed to exist BECAUSE of the Emperor, and it wasn't really his fault that drove the legions of Horus, Logar and the others of the Chaos Heresy force to rebel and almost tear the Imperium asunder, nor was it his fault that the Imperium turned into a ruthless, cold hearted machine of fury and vengeance. He merely guided humanity into the light of unification and tried to put them into the light. He was put onto the throne to be the beacon of hope against the darkness of space and the warp and didn't force mankind to worship him with religious zeal nor did he influence any of their decisions of the High Lords of Terra nor did he form the Ecclarisary. Everything since his slaining at the hands of Horus has been the decisions of the mortal man, and no one else, for he is now a rotting carcass tortured into service to be a beacon of hope for mankind. What mankind does to itself he can only watch helplessly, for he provided the foundations for the Empire, but he gave them power to begin anew and they had the potential, but misused it like so many of our real world companions and dictators have done.
In response to the aliens and xenos, who wouldn't be afraid of aliens and subhumans that view us as a threat and try to kill us? Some of them may have come harmlessly, but we had to view all other non-human races AS well as humans with prejudice because that was the only way mankind could trust the stars, because they didn't want to have potential enemies staring them in the face and backstabbing them at their weakest. Psykers as well were ill trained and the Emperor saw this horrible fate that awaited non-trained psykers and their endless torment if they misused their powers and got possessed by demons, because he saw into the warp space and saw the enemy staring back at him. Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible. When this couldn't be achieved he tried to ban it for he saw the dangers were anifesting at atrocious rates and that many pyskers were becoming needle points for the Heresy, subconsciously joining Horus's forces in the heresy.
The flaw in this logic is that much of it is biased and propaganda. Define 'subhuman'. It is entirely subjective. The Emperor was a self righteous *&^%. Try reading 'The Last Church of Terra", Graham McNeill. It's an eye opener as to the Emperor. He is the biggest dictator known to man, an autocratic donkey-cave. Literally just about everything wrong with the Universe ATM can be laid at the feet of the Emperor. That's one hell of a legacy. The Imperium simply doesn't care about humanity.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/18 12:14:35
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
Elysian Drop Troops, Dark Angels, 30K
Mercenaries, Retribution
Ten Thunders, Neverborn
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 11:54:54
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Morphing Obliterator
Elsewhere
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SisterSydney wrote:My personal headcanon is the whole "thousands of shamans" thing is pure myth and the Emperor came from the same science project that created the Primarchs and the Marines. (In some of the older fluff, it makes clear he's not brewing up the clones himself, it's a Manhattan Project-like enterprise). If he's a god, he didn't intend to be, and going by his attitude towards religion in general and people worshipping him in particular, he didn't want to be.
So my headcanon Emperor isn't a millennia-old puppet master. He's a tragic hero, an extraordinary human who did some extraordinary things both good and bad, limited as he was by his time and place -- Terra at the end of the Age of Strife, which I imagine he was created to end -- and whose ultimate legacy was nothing like what he intended it to be. Heresy it may be, but I just find it more interesting, more....well.... human.
(...)
My personal headcanon is really close. He was either created in a lab or just a powerful mutant/psyker, like the rest of the warlords he fought against. Also "The Emperor is a mere corpse, a glorified carcass of a long dead legendary ruler. He lived, he died, he was declared a god. "
I also indulge in "Emperor = Deceiver" and "Emperor = Malal" conspiracy theories. I find them quite entertaining.
baxter123 wrote:I have only read the OP, but has anyone brought this up?
In the rulebook Annals section it recounts the Age of Technology, where the entire new age of Mankind collapsed into the warp, and basically was ripped apart by the very force it intended to use to make it great again. Most technology was lost to the times and many worlds were consumed with madness and death. Many worlds were tainted into mutants and others were simply forgotten in the vaccum of space.
It wasn't until the Emperor came that Terra and Mankind began to begin anew. The Emperor allowed space travel to begin and mankind began to rebuild their great civilization from the ashes of their old one. The Emperor united the rival factions of Terra and the Mars techpriests into one unstoppable force aided by the Space Marines. Now some would say that 'Oh no, without the Space Marines the Horus Heresy wouldn't happen and humanity would be safe' in fact its the other way around. The Imperial Army and the Space Marines together formed an unstoppable force that claimed many thousands of worlds in a short span of time, that would never have been possible if it weren't for the Emperors guidance. The Space Marines created by the Emperor were the reason for worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind. In many respects mankind was allowed to exist BECAUSE of the Emperor, and it wasn't really his fault that drove the legions of Horus, Logar and the others of the Chaos Heresy force to rebel and almost tear the Imperium asunder, nor was it his fault that the Imperium turned into a ruthless, cold hearted machine of fury and vengeance. He merely guided humanity into the light of unification and tried to put them into the light. He was put onto the throne to be the beacon of hope against the darkness of space and the warp and didn't force mankind to worship him with religious zeal nor did he influence any of their decisions of the High Lords of Terra nor did he form the Ecclarisary. Everything since his slaining at the hands of Horus has been the decisions of the mortal man, and no one else, for he is now a rotting carcass tortured into service to be a beacon of hope for mankind. What mankind does to itself he can only watch helplessly, for he provided the foundations for the Empire, but he gave them power to begin anew and they had the potential, but misused it like so many of our real world companions and dictators have done.
In response to the aliens and xenos, who wouldn't be afraid of aliens and subhumans that view us as a threat and try to kill us? Some of them may have come harmlessly, but we had to view all other non-human races AS well as humans with prejudice because that was the only way mankind could trust the stars, because they didn't want to have potential enemies staring them in the face and backstabbing them at their weakest. Psykers as well were ill trained and the Emperor saw this horrible fate that awaited non-trained psykers and their endless torment if they misused their powers and got possessed by demons, because he saw into the warp space and saw the enemy staring back at him. Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible. When this couldn't be achieved he tried to ban it for he saw the dangers were anifesting at atrocious rates and that many pyskers were becoming needle points for the Heresy, subconsciously joining Horus's forces in the heresy.
I actually read this wall of text. Well most of it.
I think you got it wrong. Perhaps you should re-read that part, and don´t forget it is written from the Imperium point of view.
1: The Emperor didn´t come to Terra during the Age of Strife. He was around thousands of years before. He was around during the Golden Age of Humanity and he did nothing to (or was unable to) stop the Age of Strife. If he is the mastermind controlling humanity´s destiny, he probably caused it.
2: The Emperor didn´t colonize the galaxy, he just unified Terra and then searched for the human worlds lost during the Age of Strife. Most of the worlds he found were already populated by humans. And in many cases, they have powerful civilizations. He conquered them, in many cases through genocide.
You said: "worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind"
Wrong: they were full of humans and doing fine before the Emperor found them.
3: The Great Crusade was extremely brutal. Many worlds with full civilizations, human civilizations, were utterly destroyed because they dare to refuse the Emperor´s right to rule mankind.
baxter123 wrote:
Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible.
I am absolutely sure you didn´t get this from any official source. Marines like Magnus losing control? "Enlightening" the psykers? You mean by setting them on fire?
Kain wrote:
The Eldar would have crushed DAoT humanity in the pre-fall age just like the Old Ones were defeating the Necrons until the C'tan solved the maneuverability problem and gave them some reality warping muscle.
The Eldar time-line and the human time-line do not make sense when put together. The 30k eldar are identical to the 40k eldar, and both empires conquered the galaxy at the same time!
I would move the Eldar Fall about 100.000 years to the past. 50.000 at least and perhaps half a million years.
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‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 12:00:09
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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da001 wrote:The Eldar time-line and the human time-line do not make sense when put together. The 30k eldar are identical to the 40k eldar, and both empires conquered the galaxy at the same time!
Could be the result of the webway: the Eldar are overwhelmingly powerful on the planets they can reach, but they can't reach everywhere, so humanity sort of flows around them and takes everything else (or tries to).
It's also possible the pre-Age of Strike human and Eldar empires had some kind of Cold War relationship, or even outright friendship -- it was a much less grimdark galaxy back then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 12:26:09
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Morphing Obliterator
Elsewhere
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SisterSydney wrote: da001 wrote:The Eldar time-line and the human time-line do not make sense when put together. The 30k eldar are identical to the 40k eldar, and both empires conquered the galaxy at the same time!
Could be the result of the webway: the Eldar are overwhelmingly powerful on the planets they can reach, but they can't reach everywhere, so humanity sort of flows around them and takes everything else (or tries to).
It's also possible the pre-Age of Strike human and Eldar empires had some kind of Cold War relationship, or even outright friendship -- it was a much less grimdark galaxy back then.
I cannot imagine Eldar being "friends" with the human. I don´t know, it goes against what I believe Eldars do. Think about Biel-Tan.
More important: during the hundreds, maybe thousands of years right before the Fall, the Eldar civilization was exactly like the current Dark Eldar. They were not friendly, they were creating Slaanesh. And there were many, many of them. And the Eye of Terror is really "close" to Terra, and it was the center of their empire.
I don´t see it possible.
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‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 12:35:11
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The old Eldar Empire was described as being utterly secure from outside threats, which is what gave the Eldar the freedom to turn inwards and fall to their own depravity. The Eldar used the webway even then, so they would have had their domains, but they need not be a contiguous swathe of worlds that are somewhat close in realspace terms.
The galaxy is immense, and just as there are alien empires even within the territory claimed by the Imperium, so too could the Eldar Empire and the Dark Age of Technology humans co-existed simply due to the sheer size of the galaxy. The Eldar were busy pursuing their own pleasures, while humans spread across the galaxy. The whole theme of the Eldar is that they were secure from the outside but like the Republic of Star Wars, fell to internal problems. Any human attempts to trespass on Eldar territory were probably met with overwhelming Eldar force, so humans probably learnt to leave those areas alone after some sharp defeats, and for their part the Eldar were content to sink deeper into their own decadence. This lack of will to fight further probably became apparent quickly to the humans so they learned that as long as they steered clear of the Eldar domains, they could do whatever they wanted with the rest of the galaxy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 12:36:41
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Arguably the Eldar were nicer before the Age of Strife began: Remember the utter corruption of their society peaked with the birth of Slaanesh, which ended the galactic warp storm, which allowed the Great Crusade -- all of which took place millennia after the fall of human civilization. Perhaps the same psychic phenomenon that led to the galaxy-wide emergence of human psykers -- bringing down our civilization -- made the Eldar go collectively a little nuts. The Eye of Terror being so close to Terra is a good point, though. That said, having the heart of the Eldar empire so close to the heart of the human empire is not necessarily a dealbreaker: There are plenty of cases in history of empires that expand asymmetrically from their original homeland because of geographic or political barriers. For example, Muscovy/Russia expanded way farther east -- all the way across Siberia to Alaska -- than it did to the west, because the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was in the way and, once the Commonwealth fell, the Russians ran up against Prussia and Austria.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/18 12:37:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 12:47:37
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SisterSydney wrote:Arguably the Eldar were nicer before the Age of Strife began: Remember the utter corruption of their society peaked with the birth of Slaanesh, which ended the galactic warp storm, which allowed the Great Crusade -- all of which took place millennia after the fall of human civilization.
Perhaps the same psychic phenomenon that led to the galaxy-wide emergence of human psykers -- bringing down our civilization -- made the Eldar go collectively a little nuts.
The Eye of Terror being so close to Terra is a good point, though. That said, having the heart of the Eldar empire so close to the heart of the human empire is not necessarily a dealbreaker: There are plenty of cases in history of empires that expand asymmetrically from their original homeland because of geographic or political barriers. For example, Muscovy/Russia expanded way farther east -- all the way across Siberia to Alaska -- than it did to the west, because the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was in the way and, once the Commonwealth fell, the Russians ran up against Prussia and Austria.
The Age of Technology goes from M18 to M23, and then Age of Strife from then to M30. From the Dark Eldar Codex, the decadence and corruption in Eldar society started to take root in M19, and only from M25 to M30 does it start to resemble the Dark Eldar.
So for the latter half of that period, humanity was busy fighting itself or just trying to survive, while the Eldar empire still stood, but increasingly decadent and concerned only with pursuing its own internal affairs. I do not think any fractured survivor human state in the Age of Strife was up to contending with the pre-Fall Eldar Empire. Again the whole theme of the Eldar Fall is their pride and arrogance at seemingly conquering the galaxy and being utterly secure from any threat led to a downfall engineered from within.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 17:23:08
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
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Iracundus wrote:The old Eldar Empire was described as being utterly secure from outside threats, which is what gave the Eldar the freedom to turn inwards and fall to their own depravity. The Eldar used the webway even then, so they would have had their domains, but they need not be a contiguous swathe of worlds that are somewhat close in realspace terms.
The galaxy is immense, and just as there are alien empires even within the territory claimed by the Imperium, so too could the Eldar Empire and the Dark Age of Technology humans co-existed simply due to the sheer size of the galaxy. The Eldar were busy pursuing their own pleasures, while humans spread across the galaxy. The whole theme of the Eldar is that they were secure from the outside but like the Republic of Star Wars, fell to internal problems. Any human attempts to trespass on Eldar territory were probably met with overwhelming Eldar force, so humans probably learnt to leave those areas alone after some sharp defeats, and for their part the Eldar were content to sink deeper into their own decadence. This lack of will to fight further probably became apparent quickly to the humans so they learned that as long as they steered clear of the Eldar domains, they could do whatever they wanted with the rest of the galaxy.
This. As they got closer to the fall, the Eldar got more insular and consumed with their own depravity. I imagine it being like Rome during the rule of Caligula. Still a huge, powerful empire, but practically falling apart at the seams, far more concerned with internal matters than expanding or conquering. The Eldar had probably overlooked Earth earlier because it seemed like an insignificant backwater (much like the Imperium and the early Tau). By the time humans were expanding during the DAoT, the Eldar weren't interested anymore. Any humans that came into Eldar space would probably be killed or enslaved, but other than that they just didn't care. So humans naturally started to avoid Eldar space and spread out all around it. When the Great Crusade reached Cadia (the closest human civilization to the Eye of Terror, which had been the heart of the Eldar empire), everyone was worshiping the Chaos Gods. My theory is that Cadia was a civilization of former Eldar slaves. When the Eye opened and all the nearby Eldar were killed, they saw Chaos as their savior.
Dang, this thread has gotten off topic.
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40k is 111% science.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 21:09:50
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
Borden
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I think they would be better off if they let the emperor died but still followed his doctrine. He was an atheist who had some screwed up plans but was overall a good guy who had great leadership and potential. If he wasn't so glorified after his death, and they elected new leaders the empire might have still grown and technology advanced, but since they decided to make him a god they lost all hope of ever escaping humanities dark fate. But as far as 40k's concerned they can all go die because of how shity gw is for fluff and if the fluff advances 40k will become no more unless they miraculously settle their differences. (ps if the emperor comes back he would be pissed at what happened/how humanity has progressed and started to worship him.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 21:20:38
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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People were worshipping the Emperor as a god in his lifetime. The Imperium would never have gone ahead as an Atheist state. He was fully aware of the cults that were springing up around him while he was on the Great Crusade.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 21:21:35
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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I always wonder if how the Emperor was such a great leader during the Great Crusade, why the hell didn't he act to keep humanity together better during the age of strife? Or for that matter, why didn't he do everything he did during the Great Crusade during the Golden Age?
The warp storms probably wouldn't have even mattered if humanity was able to use the webway the whole time.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 22:39:33
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Freaky Flayed One
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From the sound of it, the Emperor had the Empire he wanted for humanity during the DAOT.
No Gods, all tech, human supremacy of sorts.
Then it sounds like something nasty happened with the cyborgs and AI, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this had something to do with scrap code or Chaos (as it was unleashed from a hidden vault on Mars if I recall Titanicus correctly - it wasn't some random incident that occurred during the Heresy, but rather a keepsake from a darker period.)
Then psyker populations exploded and there was a new tumultuous event in the Warp. His hand was forced and he took over the reigns for the first time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 22:50:20
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Yeah, the War of Iron almost eradicated Humanity as a genetic strain. The scrap-code, cyborgs and AI problems arose *long* before the Heresy. These were the results of the war with the Men of Iron.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/18 22:51:02
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Emperor couldn't act during the Age of Strife because warp storms effectively cut off Terra from the rest of the galaxy. Also attempts to tap into the Webway likely would have met with overwhelming Eldar counterattack. Remember, the pre-Fall Eldar empire was described as the dominant power in the galaxy, all the way up to the Fall. The Fall provided the window of opportunity as the warp storms were blown away by Slaanesh's explosive birth and there was a power vacuum with the Eldar now out of the picture.
I would argue that the Emperor never did overcome his original Purpose or programming as a reincarnation of all the old shamans. All his attempts through the ages to try and encourage "harmony" for humanity failed because humanity had developed and advanced beyond the simple paleolithic or neolithic society of the shamans. Humanity was not so easily controlled and the Emperor's attempts at just influencing either did not have enough effect, or grew out of his control into things he did not want.
the Great Crusade and the Emperor coming out as a warlord and leader as an act of desperation or impatience. With events and humanity spiralling out of control and humanity spread across the galaxy, things were slipping further and faster beyond the Emperor's grasp and ability to influence on any large scale. The Crusade was one drastic attempt to control all of humanity. However part of the reason for its failure was the fact it was an externally imposed form of political control on the masses, with little change on their internal natures.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/18 22:54:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/19 19:50:32
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Agreed with most of Iracundus' excellent analysis. Though I still don't buy the "collective reincarnation of shamans" backstory (and when did a GW publication last bring that up?), I agree with the diagnosis of the entire Imperium as a desperate last-ditch attempt to save humanity by imposing top-down control -- an attempt that went sour and stagnant as soon as the Emperor died and which, by M41, seems to be outright failing.
Would things have been better without the Emperor? Unknowable. We don't have enough information on the Interex and other independent civilizations to even guess what they would have done with the opportunity of the end of the warpstorms and the fall of the Eldar if the Imperium hadn't come along.
Fun fanfic opportunities abound, though. This thread has got me pondering.....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 11:25:37
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Maybe he thought there was no point being "The Emperor" during the Age of Technology as Humanity was quite capable of looking after itself?
The Eldar were the dominant force during that time, however there are examples of DAoT ships bringing mass destruction to bear against Eldar ships.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 11:29:27
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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baxter123 wrote:I have only read the OP, but has anyone brought this up?
In the rulebook Annals section it recounts the Age of Technology, where the entire new age of Mankind collapsed into the warp, and basically was ripped apart by the very force it intended to use to make it great again. Most technology was lost to the times and many worlds were consumed with madness and death. Many worlds were tainted into mutants and others were simply forgotten in the vaccum of space.
It wasn't until the Emperor came that Terra and Mankind began to begin anew. The Emperor allowed space travel to begin and mankind began to rebuild their great civilization from the ashes of their old one. The Emperor united the rival factions of Terra and the Mars techpriests into one unstoppable force aided by the Space Marines. Now some would say that 'Oh no, without the Space Marines the Horus Heresy wouldn't happen and humanity would be safe' in fact its the other way around. The Imperial Army and the Space Marines together formed an unstoppable force that claimed many thousands of worlds in a short span of time, that would never have been possible if it weren't for the Emperors guidance. The Space Marines created by the Emperor were the reason for worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind. In many respects mankind was allowed to exist BECAUSE of the Emperor, and it wasn't really his fault that drove the legions of Horus, Logar and the others of the Chaos Heresy force to rebel and almost tear the Imperium asunder, nor was it his fault that the Imperium turned into a ruthless, cold hearted machine of fury and vengeance. He merely guided humanity into the light of unification and tried to put them into the light. He was put onto the throne to be the beacon of hope against the darkness of space and the warp and didn't force mankind to worship him with religious zeal nor did he influence any of their decisions of the High Lords of Terra nor did he form the Ecclarisary. Everything since his slaining at the hands of Horus has been the decisions of the mortal man, and no one else, for he is now a rotting carcass tortured into service to be a beacon of hope for mankind. What mankind does to itself he can only watch helplessly, for he provided the foundations for the Empire, but he gave them power to begin anew and they had the potential, but misused it like so many of our real world companions and dictators have done.
In response to the aliens and xenos, who wouldn't be afraid of aliens and subhumans that view us as a threat and try to kill us? Some of them may have come harmlessly, but we had to view all other non-human races AS well as humans with prejudice because that was the only way mankind could trust the stars, because they didn't want to have potential enemies staring them in the face and backstabbing them at their weakest. Psykers as well were ill trained and the Emperor saw this horrible fate that awaited non-trained psykers and their endless torment if they misused their powers and got possessed by demons, because he saw into the warp space and saw the enemy staring back at him. Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible. When this couldn't be achieved he tried to ban it for he saw the dangers were anifesting at atrocious rates and that many pyskers were becoming needle points for the Heresy, subconsciously joining Horus's forces in the heresy.
I actually read this wall of text. Well most of it.
I think you got it wrong. Perhaps you should re-read that part, and don´t forget it is written from the Imperium point of view.
1: The Emperor didn´t come to Terra during the Age of Strife. He was around thousands of years before. He was around during the Golden Age of Humanity and he did nothing to (or was unable to) stop the Age of Strife. If he is the mastermind controlling humanity´s destiny, he probably caused it.
2: The Emperor didn´t colonize the galaxy, he just unified Terra and then searched for the human worlds lost during the Age of Strife. Most of the worlds he found were already populated by humans. And in many cases, they have powerful civilizations. He conquered them, in many cases through genocide.
You said: "worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind"
Wrong: they were full of humans and doing fine before the Emperor found them.
3: The Great Crusade was extremely brutal. Many worlds with full civilizations, human civilizations, were utterly destroyed because they dare to refuse the Emperor´s right to rule mankind.
baxter123 wrote:
Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible.
I am absolutely sure you didn´t get this from any official source. Marines like Magnus losing control? "Enlightening" the psykers? You mean by setting them on fire?
Granted, I knew this was from the Imperium's Point of View, but it still kind of stands.
it says in the rulebook p167 line40 that "A force united the warring factions of Terra and the long war with Mars was ended. This new leader was known only as the Emperor." Age of Strife, M25-M30 in the rulebook it quotes.
Granted though, I wasn't really saying that he didn't basically massacre anyone who didn't bow down to his leadership, but he also settled some planets and reclaimed others that were basically destroyed or were being invaded.
I'm not saying he was good, I just reckon that without him alot of the galaxy would be bare of humanity, because warp storms were already there and corrupting humanity across the stars, and the other races were there as well, they just kind of got in the way of his unrighteous wrath...
As to the Magnus the Red thing, I read it in a Thousand Sons by Graham McNeill. I only have the audiobook copy but I can assure you he was tricked into falling into chaos. Many of the psykers were as well. The Emperor as first wanted to find those psykers are to be "Rooted out, kept in control." Granted, they did probably kill ALOT of psykers but he did at least try to control them...
IMO he was evil, but a lot of humanity that lives in the current M41-M42 would probably find their heritage in someway influenced by the Great Crusade.
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"Tell the Colonel... We've been thrown to the Wolves." -Templeton.
1W OL 1D
I love writing fiction based upon my experiences of playing; check 'em out!
http://www.wattpad.com/user/baxter123 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 12:19:14
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mellow wrote:Maybe he thought there was no point being "The Emperor" during the Age of Technology as Humanity was quite capable of looking after itself?
The Eldar were the dominant force during that time, however there are examples of DAoT ships bringing mass destruction to bear against Eldar ships.
Can you cite and quote the last bit?
I am not aware of any such reference. In the past more often than not, the claim of DAoT ships/technology being better than the Eldar has been unsubstantiated wishful thinking by people unable to bear the thought of the pre-Fall Eldar being the superior and dominant power of the galaxy over humanity. An example of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial in action
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/20 12:22:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 13:37:31
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Morphing Obliterator
Elsewhere
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SisterSydney wrote:Arguably the Eldar were nicer before the Age of Strife began: Remember the utter corruption of their society peaked with the birth of Slaanesh, which ended the galactic warp storm, which allowed the Great Crusade -- all of which took place millennia after the fall of human civilization.
Perhaps the same psychic phenomenon that led to the galaxy-wide emergence of human psykers -- bringing down our civilization -- made the Eldar go collectively a little nuts.
The Eye of Terror being so close to Terra is a good point, though. That said, having the heart of the Eldar empire so close to the heart of the human empire is not necessarily a dealbreaker: There are plenty of cases in history of empires that expand asymmetrically from their original homeland because of geographic or political barriers. For example, Muscovy/Russia expanded way farther east -- all the way across Siberia to Alaska -- than it did to the west, because the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was in the way and, once the Commonwealth fell, the Russians ran up against Prussia and Austria.
Nice points. Russia´s expansion is quite a good example.
Still unconvinced, though. I just temporarily ran out of arguments...
baxter123 wrote:(...)
Granted, I knew this was from the Imperium's Point of View, but it still kind of stands.
it says in the rulebook p167 line40 that "A force united the warring factions of Terra and the long war with Mars was ended. This new leader was known only as the Emperor." Age of Strife, M25-M30 in the rulebook it quotes.
Yep, but he was supposed to be born 30000 years before, perhaps more. He was around all the time.
Granted though, I wasn't really saying that he didn't basically massacre anyone who didn't bow down to his leadership, but he also settled some planets and reclaimed others that were basically destroyed or were being invaded.
I'm not saying he was good, I just reckon that without him alot of the galaxy would be bare of humanity, because warp storms were already there and corrupting humanity across the stars, and the other races were there as well, they just kind of got in the way of his unrighteous wrath...
Many human civilizations (Diasporex, Quietude, Interex... ) were doing fine. And the reason he launched the Crusade was because the warpstorms were no longer there.
The warpstorms returned when he tried to destroy the Chaos Gods, and Chaos left aside its eternal civil war and united against humanity (something unheard of), which eventually led to the hellish setting humanity have been suffered for 10000 years (and counting).
And most of the places you quoted were already full of humans. The Crusade found humans everywhere, and in many cases destroyed or enslaved them.
As to the Magnus the Red thing, I read it in a Thousand Sons by Graham McNeill. I only have the audiobook copy but I can assure you he was tricked into falling into chaos. Many of the psykers were as well. The Emperor as first wanted to find those psykers are to be "Rooted out, kept in control." Granted, they did probably kill ALOT of psykers but he did at least try to control them...
Magnus was his son, a Primarch. Not a marine. And not a human.
The way the Emperor "keep psykers in control" is... absolutely horrible. There is a no-mutant policy in the Imperium and a particularly brutal no-psyker policy. They are used as fuel, as food, bound to him... There is a constant search for them (it is part of the Imperial Tithe).
IMO he was evil, but a lot of humanity that lives in the current M41-M42 would probably find their heritage in someway influenced by the Great Crusade.
True. The current state of humanity was caused by the Emperor´s actions.
But as you can read in any 40k novel, "to live in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." The Imperium is the worst regime you can imagine, period. Humanity is suffering like never before. It is hell. It has been hell for 10000 years. And it is getting worse.
I am not saying that humanity would have been better off without him. Perhaps it would have been worst. Perhaps. Or perhaps Chaos would have been playing the Great Game (the civil war inside the Warp) instead of attacking humanity, and the Tyranids wouldn´t have been driven by the Astronomicon like moths to the light, and the Necrons wouldn´t have been awakened by the Silent King to fight against the Tyranids. No more Chaos, no more Nids, no more Necrons and, most important of all, no more "the most brutal regime ever".
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‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 16:43:48
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Iracundus wrote:Mellow wrote:Maybe he thought there was no point being "The Emperor" during the Age of Technology as Humanity was quite capable of looking after itself?
The Eldar were the dominant force during that time, however there are examples of DAoT ships bringing mass destruction to bear against Eldar ships.
Can you cite and quote the last bit?
I am not aware of any such reference. In the past more often than not, the claim of DAoT ships/technology being better than the Eldar has been unsubstantiated wishful thinking by people unable to bear the thought of the pre-Fall Eldar being the superior and dominant power of the galaxy over humanity. An example of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial in action
The Ark Mechanicus battleship Speranza which had a dark matter powered black hole gun that shifted its target into the past. This was able to 1 hit kill an Eldar ship
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 22:13:44
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Slayer222 wrote:I think they would be better off if they let the emperor died but still followed his doctrine. He was an atheist who had some screwed up plans but was overall a good guy who had great leadership and potential.
You can't be a good guy if you consider genocide against those who refuse to bow to your will a valid strategy. The Emperor's great "leadership" consisted of concentrating vast amounts of power in the hands of a bunch of deeply imature manchildren with a god complex while simultanously managing to treat his newly conquered worlds so badly that almost half of them rebelled at the first opportunity.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/20 22:14:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/20 23:41:02
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mellow wrote:Iracundus wrote:Mellow wrote:Maybe he thought there was no point being "The Emperor" during the Age of Technology as Humanity was quite capable of looking after itself?
The Eldar were the dominant force during that time, however there are examples of DAoT ships bringing mass destruction to bear against Eldar ships.
Can you cite and quote the last bit?
I am not aware of any such reference. In the past more often than not, the claim of DAoT ships/technology being better than the Eldar has been unsubstantiated wishful thinking by people unable to bear the thought of the pre-Fall Eldar being the superior and dominant power of the galaxy over humanity. An example of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial in action
The Ark Mechanicus battleship Speranza which had a dark matter powered black hole gun that shifted its target into the past. This was able to 1 hit kill an Eldar ship
You'll have to be more specific so people can find whatever reference you are claiming. That was neither a citation nor a quote.
Also one key point is we are talking about pre-Fall Eldar, not current Eldar, which are really post-apocalyptic survivors of the fall of their civilization.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/21 01:25:32
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
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Iracundus wrote:Mellow wrote:
The Ark Mechanicus battleship Speranza which had a dark matter powered black hole gun that shifted its target into the past. This was able to 1 hit kill an Eldar ship
You'll have to be more specific so people can find whatever reference you are claiming. That was neither a citation nor a quote.
Also one key point is we are talking about pre-Fall Eldar, not current Eldar, which are really post-apocalyptic survivors of the fall of their civilization.
Yeah, the fact that this is a Mechanicus ship makes me think that your source is probably from the time of the great crusade, which would make them post Fall Eldar. If humanity lost a lot of tech during the Age of Strife, the Eldar probably lost more during the Fall. If we take quotes like this:
"The stars once lived and died at our command and yet still you dare to oppose our will."
-Some Eldar from the 3rd Ed. Codex
...literally, then the Eldar used to have way more serious firepower than they have now.
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40k is 111% science.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/21 02:42:33
Subject: Re:Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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KingDeath wrote:The Emperor's great "leadership" consisted of concentrating vast amounts of power in the hands of a bunch of deeply immature manchildren with a god complex while simultaneously managing to treat his newly conquered worlds so badly that almost half of them rebelled at the first opportunity.
Wow. When you put it like that, he sounds.... kinda dumb.
So, one more blow against the "millennia-old mastermind" theory.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/21 04:43:41
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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Short answer is no.
The Aliens would have steam rolled over all of humanity and we would probably be extinct by now.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/21 23:02:57
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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You know with all this talk of if 40k would've been better without the emperor it got me thinking what if 30k-40k had an alternate timeline where the emperor didn't exist and what happens. Perhaps even a version of 30k but with various human factions that don't include the imperium of man. Alternatively forge world also has a sort of horus heresy and 30k thing going on. I think that 30k without the imperium would have a lot of interesting story to it.
Personally I think that humanity would've been better off without the imperium as a whole. Then again I'm not as knowledgeable of the lore as most of you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/21 23:59:49
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Oh, I wouldn't consider myself particularly knowledgeable, I just talk a lot....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/22 00:14:18
Subject: Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Humanity would have been devoured by aliens. Whether that would be Necrons, Dark Eldar, or Tyranid, it would have been inevitable.
A scattering of human mini-Empires lacks the industrial output required to combat a threat like the Waaagh! that came to Armageddon, or even one of the Hive Fleets.
Yes, the worlds of 40K are incredibly terrible places to live, and they are also the absolute best that can be done, given the circumstances.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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