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ryuken87 wrote:
Looking at the codex I think I can certainly get better value overall than I did with the last, but it doesn't feel like it's been brought up to date with 7th edition. Where is the Ignores Cover, Skyfire, etc. that is so prevalent in the rest of the game?

I feel our HQ choices are quite frankly, terrible. Urien is maybe ok but beyond that I'm sticking a Blaster on my Archon and that's it.

RE Wyches they needed some kind of buff to justify 10 ppm, whether it be 4++ vs Overwatch, Rending attacks just something. Compare to Ork Boyz at 6 ppm and you realise they aren't good value.

The strength of DE HQs is that they can kill stuff and they're cheap. It doesn't look like that changed. I'm a fan of running a Succubus with minimal upgrades and using the points for more units.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

This is why your argument falls flat on its face. They are terrible because they have no way of reliably making it into combat. If a full unit of Wyches dies to a stiff breeze on turn 3, they will have acomplished almost nothing. If a full unit of Warriors dies to a slighty stiffer breeze on turn 3, they will have at least gotten to do SOME damage and required a bit more of the enemy's firepower to take out. They also will have cost you less points.

You've honestly never seen Wyches get into CC? Honestly? Is that honestly what you are saying here?

You are really missing the point here.

When I ran 6 units of Wyches last dex, about 3 squads minimum don't make it to CC. It's that unreliable. Do you really want to be taking minimum 4 squads of Wyches to secure your investment? And thats still mega risky. If you know anything about the structure of our glass cannon DE, you would know its about target saturation through MSU, otherwise if the two tarpit units are a threat, they will just pop the two AV10 transport's carrying tarpit units. You really want to make the massive investment into Wyches that is necessary to run them, after all these changes?

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

That's it!?!?!

Great News, eh?

really miffed the decided to make a new generic archon and a new generic succubus but no special characters...

Which I find really funny because you can find any number of Sci-fi based S&Mish elves for purchase from other games to use as count as Archon and Succubus, yet special characters get culled because someone somewhere might make a sci-fi based S&Mish elf with a name.

Well and they already had archon and succubus models(several)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
Looking at the codex I think I can certainly get better value overall than I did with the last, but it doesn't feel like it's been brought up to date with 7th edition. Where is the Ignores Cover, Skyfire, etc. that is so prevalent in the rest of the game?

I feel our HQ choices are quite frankly, terrible. Urien is maybe ok but beyond that I'm sticking a Blaster on my Archon and that's it.

The strength of DE HQs is that they can kill stuff and they're cheap. It doesn't look like that changed. I'm a fan of running a Succubus with minimal upgrades and using the points for more units.

That is the strength of the succubus

Archons are expensive, and now are not very good at killing stuff
Haemi's are somewhat expensive and were never good at killing stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Powerguy wrote:
All the comparisons and Mathhammer regarding Wyches here is rather amusing. You don't need to do any new analysis on Wyches because they haven't gained anything so the comparisons (both theoretical and from actual in game use for several years across 2 editions) have already been done and their usefulness is already clearly established. Wyches were only used as Haywire delivery systems in the old codex so I would like to know what people are smoking to to make them think that they are suddenly going to become a viable unit when the only thing that has happened is that they have lost options (no Haywire, no Nightshields, no Duke to get a decent Drug result etc).

PFP changed(somewhat lateral shift)
Combat drugs changed(slight nerf)

but yes, they lose their grenades. they remain the same cost. They were terrible at anything other than using their grenades in 6th and 7th before the codex, so one would expect them to be terrible after the new codex

What models make good grotesques?

Trying to come up with some ideas about them. Going to by a few of the actual model and slightly convert, but not sure what do do about the other 8 I'm wanting.

Any ideas?

Also, the archon and the Succubus should go up for pre-order today I assume. Anything else?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Powerguy :: They have gained something. The new PfP mechanic is clearly better for how Wyches operate. Not have to pay 3 points/model to get them FNP is a significant change.

The new PFP mechanic is differnet, but not clearly better. turn 1 wyches have virtually no way to get FNP. Before they had 2. A 1/6 chance of getting it from the start of the game via combat drugs, or by adding a haemi. I am not sure how much the pain token cost, 2 points, 3 points, 5 points. Having in around was great at times, you could sacrifise him for overwatch, play LOS schenagins, carry a liquifier, and provide damage with a venom blade.

For a large squad, it was definitly worth getting the haemi first thing, for preventing damage turn 1 and 2. The new PFP mechanic really helps MSU squads, that were unlikely to ever get a pain token, at the expense of larger more decked out squads. Combat wyches worked best more decked out, so I think the new PFP is worse for them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Also, they actually have a chance to get T4, allowing the FNP to help against 6/7 range weapons. Their weapons are also more cost effective now. Is it enough? I don't know, but it's factually incorrect to say nothing has changed when it clearly has.

They have a 1/6 chance to get T4, but they have 0/6 chance of getting 5+ FNP on turn 1 and 0/6 chance of getting reroll to wound, which was by far their most powerful drug.

mercury14 wrote:

Also in this Wych analysis why aren't people factoring in combat drugs? I know they're random and one of them is pretty useless but the rest have real benefits. A S4, +1A, +1T, or WS5 Wych squad really shifts the odds. Give one Hydra gauntlets and maybe S4 and they become more punch for 10 point models.

lastly, if we're factoring in overwatch then why not the Wych's shooting phase on the way in? Four pistols and a plasma grenade should kill a marine.

Why isn't the Wych analysis taking into account the multiple turns of shooting the tactical squad would get?

And before you so say, "they can take a Raider, so it would just be one turn of shooting". If they take a Raider they're now more expensive than that tactical squad.

edit: ugh quote brackets fail

 godswildcard wrote:
What models make good grotesques?

Trying to come up with some ideas about them. Going to by a few of the actual model and slightly convert, but not sure what do do about the other 8 I'm wanting.

Any ideas?

Also, the archon and the Succubus should go up for pre-order today I assume. Anything else?

everyone uses isle of blood rat ogers. They are cheap, easy to convert, and look just like the finecrap model

 godswildcard wrote:
What models make good grotesques?

I found these based on Ogryn Warspears:



Someone else has done something similar here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?328113-Dark-Eldar-Grotesque-Conversions

ShadarLogoth wrote:


The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.

When you kill a raider, with all AP3+ weapons, there is a 42% chance it will explode.

If it explodes, 60% of the wyches die and a chance they will be pinned, essentially knocking a combat unit out of action.

If you do it with AP2 weapons the chance of it blowing up is 70%

If you do it with AP1 weapons the chance is 88%

There is also a 50% chance the sides will go first, and kill the raider so far away that the wyches will never make it to the sides.


So no, all things being equal, a squad of broadsides is going to wipe the floor with wyches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ryuken87 wrote:

I feel our HQ choices are quite frankly, terrible. Urien is maybe ok but beyond that I'm sticking a Blaster on my Archon and that's it.

I feel for you, it and troops are looking like the least competitive slots

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").

Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.

The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.

What about the Wyches killed in the vehicle explosion?

Not gonna lie. I am loving the options in this book. I see tons of potential. I am saddened by Wyches but pretty in love with all the other options. I can see myself always using the DE detachment. Honestly not sure 6 Fast Attack is enough.....

Also, UNITS of Talos!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Not gonna lie. I am loving the options in this book. I see tons of potential. I am saddened by Wyches but pretty in love with all the other options. I can see myself always using the DE detachment. Honestly not sure 6 Fast Attack is enough.....

Also, UNITS of Talos!

The formation that gets scout and victory points for wiping units is super nice, but very expensive. Put that many points out there and certain armies are going to be very happy(GK, other pervayers of mass ID)

 godswildcard wrote:
What models make good grotesques?

I made some out of some chaos spawn, computer parts, greenstuff and extra bits

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-14732-14503_Grotesques%20%26amp%3B%20Wracks.html

 Exergy wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:


The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.

When you kill a raider, with all AP3+ weapons, there is a 42% chance it will explode.

If it explodes, 60% of the wyches die and a chance they will be pinned, essentially knocking a combat unit out of action.

If you do it with AP2 weapons the chance of it blowing up is 70%

If you do it with AP1 weapons the chance is 88%

There is also a 50% chance the sides will go first, and kill the raider so far away that the wyches will never make it to the sides.


So no, all things being equal, a squad of broadsides is going to wipe the floor with wyches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ryuken87 wrote:

I feel our HQ choices are quite frankly, terrible. Urien is maybe ok but beyond that I'm sticking a Blaster on my Archon and that's it.

I feel for you, it and troops are looking like the least competitive slots

Am I missing something here? Where did these percentages come from? 42% on ap 3+. On a roll of 6 it will explode, and on a roll of 5 it might crash and burn (or is that only flyers? I don't have my book with me). That's either 16.5 % or less than 33%, but I don't see how it's ever 42%.

Just asking. I'm not sure about any of this without my book handy. Are we looking at ordnance or armorbane or something? I don't know Tau.

 godswildcard wrote:
What models make good grotesques?

Trying to come up with some ideas about them. Going to by a few of the actual model and slightly convert, but not sure what do do about the other 8 I'm wanting.

Any ideas?

Also, the archon and the Succubus should go up for pre-order today I assume. Anything else?

from GW:

isle of blood rat ogres is the cheapest option

crypt ghoul/varghesits work

Normal rat ogres work

Ogryns/bullgryns could work

I was looking at the new Arkhai models, but they are too big, could maybe make interesting talos tho.

Nobz could also make a good base, head swap for talos mask, arm swaps for talos arm/tentacles and green stuff tattered skirts over legs.

 Exergy wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Not gonna lie. I am loving the options in this book. I see tons of potential. I am saddened by Wyches but pretty in love with all the other options. I can see myself always using the DE detachment. Honestly not sure 6 Fast Attack is enough.....

Also, UNITS of Talos!

The formation that gets scout and victory points for wiping units is super nice, but very expensive. Put that many points out there and certain armies are going to be very happy(GK, other pervayers of mass ID)

I'm thinking that weakening the unit(s) your taloi are targeting will be crucial to getting those victory points. In most games , wiping two units should be enough for the win, so deep striking Raiders with warriors and splinter racks next to the unit you want to kill should allow you to put some wounds on the unit AND will give that unit something to do until the taloi get there, assuming scout hasn't out them there already.

Also, thanks for the feedback on the grots everyone! My coven is going to have a special hatred for night lords, so I'm looking for so,etching that would be mutated SM sized. I think the ogryns may work really well!

Some of my recent Coven stuff..

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:


The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.

When you kill a raider, with all AP3+ weapons, there is a 42% chance it will explode.

If it explodes, 60% of the wyches die and a chance they will be pinned, essentially knocking a combat unit out of action.

If you do it with AP2 weapons the chance of it blowing up is 70%

If you do it with AP1 weapons the chance is 88%

There is also a 50% chance the sides will go first, and kill the raider so far away that the wyches will never make it to the sides.


So no, all things being equal, a squad of broadsides is going to wipe the floor with wyches.

Am I missing something here? Where did these percentages come from? 42% on ap 3+. On a roll of 6 it will explode, and on a roll of 5 it might crash and burn (or is that only flyers? I don't have my book with me). That's either 16.5 % or less than 33%, but I don't see how it's ever 42%.

With an AP 3-6 weapon
It's 16% to explode with 1 pen, raiders have 3 hull points, so it will take 3 pen/glances to ultimately put them down. Being AV10, against str7 weapons you get a lot of pens compared to glances(75% pens, 25% glances)
assuming all pens, it's a 16% chance the first one will make it explode, 31% chance that the first or second pen will make it explode, and 42% that the first second or third pen will make it explode.
With glances, the chances will be slightly lower, depends on the weapon. But str6-7, the biggest enemy of DE, it's still a fairly high chance ~35% for AP3-6. Higher strength, lower AP only result in more explosions

well the codex is out, posting some final thoughts then starting a tactica thread if no one has yet.

Reavers- Loss of bladevane changes their tactical value if you used them to harass units. If you used them as mobile AT pot shots they are better.

thoughts-

3 reavers with 1 blaster before = 81pts

3 reavers with 1 blaster now = 58pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters before = 162pts

6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops before = 172pts

6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops and 2 blasters before=202pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters now = 116pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters and 2 cluster caltrops now = 146pts

consider we can get 6 FA.

Reavers may no longer be harassers, but now can be dual threat for less cost than 1 role they had before. Before bladevaning would allow us to put hits on something without engaging it, but we gave up shooting and assault, now we can shoot and assault and benefit from both in the same turn.

I think reavers lost utility, but they gained a lot in power for a lower cost.

Reavers now have the potential to threaten armor in shooting and assault, since HoW caltrops hit the armor facing you charge you can score a significant amount of str6 hits that rend, on average you will see 1 rend on a charge with 2 caltrops. This can give a unit 2 blaster shots and average 6 str 6 hits and 1 str6+d3 hits on a vehicle in 1 turn if it can shoot and charge it. That is no joke against transports, even against non transports you are looking at 2 str8 lance hits and a follow up str 8 hit from the rend, which is no joke for 1 round. More impressively, if the vehicle is already hurt, if you drop it with the blaster shots you can now charge the squad that has to disembark from the explosion, with a good chance of annhilating them from the HoW hits alone.

Wyches-

It's hard to say positive things about wyches for reasons already stated, to summarize:

Still no overwatch protection
FnP 5+ [maybe 4+] is a given, but not until your turn 2-3 so no more protection off the bat.

Bloodbrides received a slight nerf, min unit size is now 5, so its not possible to take them in a venom with ICs

Wyche weapons cheaper, and sidegraded.

Wyches before were only really good with tarpitting high cost high armor, high str low ap low attack models (WK, terminators, riptides) but suffered from having to get into assault with enough models to do the job.

and they were excellent at vehicle hunting due to haywire, which is now gone.

agoniser went up in cost, but became poisoned instead of set 4+, which is better.

They still have some potential as assault units, but now require you to have another unit essentially to assault before them to eat overwatch, ie wracks, reavers, hellions, or beastpack. As these units either come with FnP stock or have access to jink, or an inv save.

They are no longer a point and click unit to assault with most of the time, they need to work in tandem with something else.

Usually you just don't want tocharge the unit that you are shooting with your heat lance or blaster, because it's a vehicle and a. You can hardly hurt it b. You are clumped down in a clumsy position where you'll be shot on next turn.

With raiders and venoms no one seems to remeber the awesome rule from the 7th adition where a clip of flamer will cause. D6 hits to the squad inside the open-topped transport. I can hardly wait facing dreadknights for the first time. As a positive side, there is no one left to die in the explosion

Have Heat Lances changed at all? And what is better for killing vehicles with Reavers? Blasters or Heat Lances?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Have Heat Lances changed at all? And what is better for killing vehicles with Reavers? Blasters or Heat Lances?

between 10-18" the blaster is signifigantly better
9" or less the heat lance is totally better

I think he was looking for a less vague answer as in S and AP

He answered the second part of my question anyway. I'm assuming heat lances suffered no changes.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
He answered the second part of my question anyway. I'm assuming heat lances suffered no changes.

Heat Lance - 18", S6 AP1, Melta, Lance.
Blaster - 18", S8 AP2, Lance.

 pretre wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:
Guh.

I've been trying to write a post about how I feel about GW right now, but everytime I try, I end up with so much semi-coherent swearing and frothing at the mouth that's sure to get me kicked off Dakka, if not the entire internet.

I just really can't afford their fickleness anymore. All those hellions I purchased? Redundant. My Baron conversion? Obsolete. Wyches? Unusable. Harlequins? Heh. I've got a very tight gaming budget, and limited painting time budget as well, and GW just negated both for the past year. After 27 years of this, you'd think I'd learn.

GW canmy goat and horseradish . Twice.

Whelp. At least I've got Infinity to look forward to.

Wait, so how do you feel about the new codex though?

I'm sure it'll look lovely on other people's bookshelves.

 Mastiff wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:
Guh.

I've been trying to write a post about how I feel about GW right now, but everytime I try, I end up with so much semi-coherent swearing and frothing at the mouth that's sure to get me kicked off Dakka, if not the entire internet.

I just really can't afford their fickleness anymore. All those hellions I purchased? Redundant. My Baron conversion? Obsolete. Wyches? Unusable. Harlequins? Heh. I've got a very tight gaming budget, and limited painting time budget as well, and GW just negated both for the past year. After 27 years of this, you'd think I'd learn.

GW canmy goat and horseradish . Twice.

Whelp. At least I've got Infinity to look forward to.

Wait, so how do you feel about the new codex though?

I'm sure it'll look lovely on other people's bookshelves.

For what it's worth, I'll be doing up dataslates of each missing unit updated to 7th ed once I get my Archon Edition (not till fething tuesday apparently!, bought it like a mug and I get it after everyone else for my troubles. :/).

These will all be collected in what I'm currently calling 'The Oubliette Compendium (A Dark Eldar Supplement)'

Are Court of the Archon units still only takeable when you run an archon?

I just picked up a pair of Sslyths, a pair of Medusae, and a Clawed Fiend out of the case at my FLGS. The Fiend was $8.00 fully painted and based with an excellent paint job so I couldn't pass it up. The store clerk said it's been on the shelf for years

Are there still caps to the number of beasts in a unit? Still max of one Fiend per BM?

No caps on anything. Run whatever you like in a beast unit.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
No caps on anything. Run whatever you like in a beast unit.

Fiendpack FTW?