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 Compel wrote:
What I don't understand is, shouldn't there have been a few references to the 'Sound of Drums' related episodes too? And the Toclafane. It seemed odd to miss that whole thing out.

Eh? Not sure what you're getting at here...

Also, I quite enjoyed it.

Those episodes also supposedly happened at the very end of the Un verse as well. - including having the master running around and causing havoc.

Yet no mention of it

Different planet, simple.

 Paradigm wrote:
Gah, really don't know what to think about tonight's one. Pending a rewatch, I think:

Orphanage bit: good
End of Universe bit: good
Rom-com bits: why?
The last bit (you'll see what bit I mean): For the love of Rassilon make it stop, and leave the show alone!

Spoiler:

I'm really in two minds about it. There were some great themes brought up, proper Who-style taking the mundane and making it freaky, and although some of the ground covered had already been covered by the Silents, or still worked. Similarly, the idea of something existing just to hide and reveal itself to the last living being (or not) was a great one. I loved the ambiguity in both scenes like that.

But I have a real issue with the last scene on Gallifrey, though. 1) Clara is already so involved with the Doctor's life after the 'Impossible Girl' incidents, there's no need to have her be the reason he 'fears the dark' as week is just too far. I'm all for companions changing the Doctor, but preferably during their time with him, rather than hiding under the Child-Doctor's bed. 2) It undermined the earlier ambiguity, and while it didn't actually answer the question, it weighted it heavily towards there being nothing there at all.

I'm also not a fan of Danny possibly being a Plot thing, is it too much to ask for a companion who is just a character?

On the plus side, Capaldi was brilliant and even Coleman gave a good showing, particularly in the orphanage scene.

Overall, I think there was some wasted potential, though. It could easily have been a two parter, the first one making more of the orphanage bits and the second the 'last planet' bit. Plenty of Chills/scares to be had there.

But the last bit just ruined it for me.

Agreed on most points, however this one was actually scary. The bit in the orphanage with the blanket, with them looking out of the window, was genuinely creepy and I thought back to my childhood self and I'd be frightened by it and I hope most of the kids watching it were... Because Capaldi Doctor wasn't there to make it all go away with a gurning smile and some fairy tale bs like his two predecessors, he was there to tell you it was bloody scary and you should be scared, just like McCoy Doctor and TBaker Doctor, that you should be ready to run or fight for your life because the universe is filled with things that want to end it.

Having watched it again, I liked it more. Still not a fan of the ending but the rest was fine.

I did feel there was a bit to much going on, and kind of got the impression that Moffat started writing with the idea of 'the thing behind your back' and then realised he had to fill more time, so shoved in the last bit by way of making the episode 'significant' and filling the time. He apparently did the same with Deep Breath, starting with the Dino idea and then not quite knowing where to go, hence the recycled Clockwork Droids part.

I'd like to have seen RTD or Pre-showrunner Moffat do this theme, and really make it the scare-fest it should have been.

I did like the orphanage scene a lot, as a) it's the kind of spine-tingling stuff the whole episode should have been, and b) I love the idea of the Doctor turning up and saving someone not because he had to or was and to, but just as a by product of proving a point. It's a very interesting spin on the idea and makes you wonder how many more he saved 'by accident'...

The Clara-Doc dynamic is getting better, mainly due to the Doc being so blunt and irritable, but at the same time an irascible kid that just wants to have adventures and know stuff. It's in this role where Capaldi shines, like when he just turns up and says 'I need you for a thing' and had every bit as much energy as Tennant or Smith, yet still has the presence/authority he shows elsewhere.

Ok so after posting in a few FB group and finding nothing but defensive fangirls who just want nothing but romance in a sci-fi show, I'm hoping to have a decent discussion here for the latest episode.. Listen.

I'm personally 50/50 on the epidosde..

Things I liked:

-The start of the plot was good with the Doctors theroies.

-The monsters seemed genuine interesting to find out about.

-Sass moments are welcome between Clara and the Doctor.

-Capalldi's performance was brilliant.

Things I did not like:

-The plot drifted off after the end of the universe scene, it felt as if Moffat (if he wrote it) got writers block and just thought "I know, I'll just bring back an historic episode that everyone loves, refrences it a shed ton and people will forgive it".

-Little was known about those monsters, Why do they hide? What is there intention? Are they evil or good?

-Another romantic angle.. tbh I'm getting sick of romantic angles being forced into plots, and the date scenes just feel like they were there to cover screentime, and I did just end bored watching the episode as I just wanted to get along with the more sci-fi part of the show.. If I want to see a romance show I will go and see one under that genre so please stop trying to cram it in..

-The end scene, wait wut? It felt forced in and Imo there was no need for it.. what was Clara trying to accomplish? Did she doubt the Doctor if he was going to solve the case? Did she doubt the Doctors confidence? It just felt forced in to as a "solution" to writers block imo..

Altogether I'm going 50/50 it had me interested, kept me engaged as I wanted to know who the monsters were and why are they hiding? However the episode did just fall a lot imo due to drifting off in romantic angles to fill in screentime and then dragging out an old episode for no reason other than "solving" writers block. Capalldis performance was brilliant

I will also agree with points people had posted with the FB groups and say that I do feel NewWho feels held back in terms of scares and Dark Stories, and I felt that Listen was another example of this..

One thing I was truly happy about was that in the "next episode" shows that Ablsom Daak is now cannon!

I liked the episode but confess to not having the slightest clue what was going on.

The Bedsheet monster was intriguing, scared even, although it was ultimate probably just a child's prank.

Clara doent irritate me like others but the writers should tone her down, I mean who's the show about after all.

Capaldi continues to grow in the role and gives another strong performance.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Gah, really don't know what to think about tonight's one. Pending a rewatch, I think:

Orphanage bit: good
End of Universe bit: good
Rom-com bits: why?
The last bit (you'll see what bit I mean): For the love of Rassilon make it stop, and leave the show alone!

Spoiler:

I'm really in two minds about it. There were some great themes brought up, proper Who-style taking the mundane and making it freaky, and although some of the ground covered had already been covered by the Silents, or still worked. Similarly, the idea of something existing just to hide and reveal itself to the last living being (or not) was a great one. I loved the ambiguity in both scenes like that.

But I have a real issue with the last scene on Gallifrey, though. 1) Clara is already so involved with the Doctor's life after the 'Impossible Girl' incidents, there's no need to have her be the reason he 'fears the dark' as week is just too far. I'm all for companions changing the Doctor, but preferably during their time with him, rather than hiding under the Child-Doctor's bed. 2) It undermined the earlier ambiguity, and while it didn't actually answer the question, it weighted it heavily towards there being nothing there at all.

I'm also not a fan of Danny possibly being a Plot thing, is it too much to ask for a companion who is just a character?

On the plus side, Capaldi was brilliant and even Coleman gave a good showing, particularly in the orphanage scene.

Overall, I think there was some wasted potential, though. It could easily have been a two parter, the first one making more of the orphanage bits and the second the 'last planet' bit. Plenty of Chills/scares to be had there.

But the last bit just ruined it for me.

Agreed on most points, however this one was actually scary. The bit in the orphanage with the blanket, with them looking out of the window, was genuinely creepy and I thought back to my childhood self and I'd be frightened by it and I hope most of the kids watching it were... Because Capaldi Doctor wasn't there to make it all go away with a gurning smile and some fairy tale bs like his two predecessors, he was there to tell you it was bloody scary and you should be scared, just like McCoy Doctor and TBaker Doctor, that you should be ready to run or fight for your life because the universe is filled with things that want to end it.

Spoiler:

I was entirely happy with the episode, I even forgave it the gallifrey tie-in they just had to squeeze in. Because that wasn't the answer, because there still is something under the bed. Because whatever was sitting on the bed in the orphanage was never explained, was it.


I even didn't want to be rid of Clara, because whilst her dates and such were overdone, she's been freed of the fawning over the doctor thing and instead they are developing some interesting barbed banter and his references to her physical appearance are great.

My wife has hated NewWho since it started and has left the room to allow me to watch it, only to come back in when Matt 'Rocky Dennis' Smith has been in the throws of some timey whimey custard fishcake fueled gak and she's just muttered at it and asked me why I'm watching it because I've been so pissed about it. I watched it because it was a remnant of Dr Who. She agreed to watch the new Capaldi ones with me because she loves him so much in The Thick of It and has moderately enjoyed the first few episodes. She and I loved last night's show.

If they'd avoided the indulgent ending, if they'd been brave and fully gone with a sinister race that actually does dwell under the bed, just behind you (presumably playing cards with the vashta narada, the silence and everyone else...), I'd have loved it. I think from the orphanage, they sort of did, they didn't entirely close the book. The figure under the blanket was not explained.

I have one question. WHAT THE feth WAS ON THE BED.

I have one question. WHAT THE feth WAS ON THE BED.

No idea, that's what's so brilliant about it. I'd they'd actually shown it, it would have ruined the episode.

Something... Nothing... Everything...

I liked it, even though I had my wife and daughter wittering on almost continuously asking questions like, "what is going on?"

Me: "We can find out by watching the programme. That is the purpose of TV mystery drama."

What was the thing under the blanket though? A figment of everyone's imagination?

I think it's safe to say it was definitely NOT a figment of everyone's imagination - that'd be cheating.

Pretty much it was left intentionally ambiguous as being either:

A) The secret monster under the bed thing.
Or
B) A kid hiding under the covers playing a prank.

The only thing the ending really 'resolved' was confirming that the Doctors own personal experience back in the barn on Gallifrey was not a monster-under-the-bed, but instead was just Clara. All the other situations are left ambiguous.

There's also apparently the question of, "Who wrote the word 'listen' on the blackboard." - I'll admit I wasn't paying close enough attention, I figured it was just part of the Doctors crazy theories.

However.... It's worth saying, there was no Big-Promised-Land storyarc hints in this episode that I could spot.

I liked the episode quite a bit. I really like the new Clare-Doctor relationship that they are developing more and more.

I liked that they never really said that there is nothing underneath the bed. These things could still be out there, nothing that happened actually says they are real or that they aren't real. Whatever was underneath the blanket could have been something (was the short bit of head we saw something or a representation of their imagination) or a prank. The noises in the station could have been the creatures, or it could have been everything the doctor actually said it was. The door was opening, but was it really the creatures or was it the doctor without realizing it when he hit it with the screw driver (ala Ouija Board)?

While Clara being part of the timeline all over the place is getting to be old news, it did have a lot of interesting relevation and raises interesting questions:
- So to be a Time Lord you HAVE to be a member of the military?
- If you cannot be a Time Lord without being in the military did the Doctor find a way around this rule?
- Did Clara leave "Dan the Soldier" with the young Doctor? Wouldn't he have recognized it when she pulled it out of the box for young Dan?

 Compel wrote:

However.... It's worth saying, there was no Big-Promised-Land storyarc hints in this episode that I could spot.

Unless the Big-Promised-Land ankle includes the TARDIS and the telepathic connection was just a big arrow to remind people that the TARDIS is a separate being.

The scene before the opening credits bit was Amazing as a short stand alone bit. That bit was just really great, and the idea of the hidden monster is cool. The more you explore that idea though, the worse it gets, simply because nothing could ever live up to the hype of the unknown. so the episode gradually went downhill from the start. I don't think it ever got Bad though, and overall the episode was really quite good.

http://io9.com/theres-not-much-point-in-arguing-about-moffats-doctor-w-1634481730

Interesting article, but I think the point it y really resides with me is not that Moffat likes using credit certain devices, but the fact they they're getting tired and overused by now.

Watching some of the earlier stuff recently, I can't say in good conscience that Moffat is a bad writer. The Empty Child is the only episode of anything to actually freak me out. The Girl in the Fireplace and Blink are masterpieces of television. The Silence and the Vashda Nerada were perfect cases of taking something mundane and making it scary (which came through again in the orphanage scene) and remain some of my favourite villains. However...

Those devices that were once new, exciting and scary (not-quite-human kids, tricks with sight/memory, peoples lives running at different speeds) are now just clichéd and have become common, and lost their power in the new episodes. That, and everything seems to be playing second fiddle to trying to make the episode 'matter', either through crowbarring in a
Plot Arc or through making it something revalatory like revealing the Doctor's childhood nightmare (personal preference, but I believe anything before he became The Doctor and stole the TARDIS should be left a mystery).

Looking back, some of the best episodes were the simplest: Blink was just 45 minutes of mystery, hardly any Doctor involved, and ultimately, it could have been removed entirely and that season's finale or the Doctor himself would be entirely unchanged, and that's no bad thing. These days it seems that every episode seems to have to be something profound or revelatory, which, really, should be saved for specials, a couple of episodes a series and finales in my opinion (the return of the two-parter would be welcome here).

On a side note, the othere issue I've realised I have with the new series and the last half of 7 is that every episode seems to take the first 15 minutes just to set it up. There has to be 5 minutes of Doctor doing something, then 5 of Clara, and then 5 of them meeting again, and before you know it, a third of the episode is gone! In the days of series 1-6, there was generally something going on before the credits even hit. We get that each time the Doctor and Clara only travel together occasionally, we don't need to waste time establishing that premise each week! This kind of slow start is fine in 2-part episodes where you have twice the time, but in general, things got going a lot quicker before now.

Apologies, rant over

That was an interesting article.

You make some good points there too, Paradigm.

Sometimes I just want to watch and enjoy the show, rather than analyse the long running plot arc.

I don't mind a long plot ark, as long as you can still watch individual episodes without having to know what happens before or after.

And once more, just poor. Badly written, unnecessarily drawn out, no engaging characters to speak of. I need a manual memory delete after that myself...

I thought it was great.

A closed room bank heist mystery featuring several interesting characters and a bunch of moral ambiguity, all resolved in 45 minutes.

Yeah, I liked it.

Meh, alright. I think it was one of the better episodes we've had this series, although I don't think Capaldi stood out as much as he has before.

I wouldn't say it was *great* - I'd just call it, well, harmless.

Nothing big, or fancy, just an episode of a tv show. And, it's another episode without that subtle-as-a-brick overarching plotarc (aside from the phone mention). I was inwardly cringing at the thought of another Missy scene when the characters started being "killed off."

Man, you guys are a downer. :(

 pretre wrote:
Man, you guys are a downer. :(

Amen. I really liked this episode. I thought the Teller, in particular, was great. And Capaldi continues to entertain.

Gah, my dvr screwed up and isn't recording until 9. :(

Started watching season 8.
I'm really liking it so far. The Robin Hood episode was just pure fun

Listen was ok, imo. It was pretty scary and tense, but the ending felt inconsistent. I mean, you saw creature in the background after the bed sheet came off, you saw the airlock handle turning.

I get what they were going for, and it's absolutely brilliant twist, but I just don't think it matched the prior events that well.

Also, aren't the best hiders in the universe the Silence? I mean, they delete memories after being seen. That's pretty effective.

Finally got to watch it and it was great! I think this doctor's catch phrase may be 'shut up' though.

 pretre wrote:
Finally got to watch it and it was great! I think this doctor's catch phrase may be 'shut up' though.

Could also be "eyebrows" because he keep making reference to them.. whether they're his, and the reason why he's in charge, or Clara's (and her "wide" face)

I liked the bank heist in theory, but I hated the fact that I saw absolutely everything coming from a mile away save for the very end goal. Sometime I wonder if I have seen too much sci-fi shows to be hugely surprised anymore, but it might also be the writing.