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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

You somehow seem to think that ML+force weapon+storm bolters are worth less than 6 points a head.

That's because it is. You're assuming that Tactical Marines are fine at 14 PPM. They're not.

Not just that, they're failing to discount the loss of a bolt pistol (and it's extra attacks) as well as insisting on adding in things that don't cost points on basic models. Wyches don't pay for Combat Drugs for instance.

And even if GW was charging points for the ML, they'd spread it out over the cost of the unit, not the basic models (something else that's being ignored), because the unit acts as a single psyker.

So yeah, the claims that GKSS models are undercosted are ridiculious.

And then there's the concept of opportunity costs as well.

Fine, i forgot bolt pistols. that 1 force weapon is still superior to bolt pistol+CCW combo against anything without a 2+ or 4++ (or cultists, but if you cant rout THESE out, you are doing something wrong.)

As for the mastery level, I counted it as mere 3 points-meaning I bought the ML for only 15, and split it 5 ways. "EVEN IF" they change for the ML? you mean you should get it for free?

Wytchs don't pay for drugs? what kind of silly statement is that? you think its NOT part of their cost? ofc it is. maybe one point, because they are so small to begin with and the bonus is so minor, but freaking storm bolters and force weapons are nothing minor.

All I see here, is a pair of GK players, who for some reason thing that they deserve better than having their basic troops equipped better than what any army can get even for double that cost.
MeQ, with a 5 point ranged weapon, 15 point melee weapon and more rules than most elite MeQ units-as troops. and 20 points is "too much" for it.
Next thing You'll say 1k sons are OP as they beat down sternguard in a shootout.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fine, i forgot bolt pistols. that 1 force weapon is still superior to bolt pistol+CCW combo against anything without a 2+ or 4++ (or cultists, but if you cant rout THESE out, you are doing something wrong.)

As for the mastery level, I counted it as mere 3 points-meaning I bought the ML for only 15, and split it 5 ways. "EVEN IF" they change for the ML? you mean you should get it for free?

Wytchs don't pay for drugs? what kind of silly statement is that? you think its NOT part of their cost? ofc it is. maybe one point, because they are so small to begin with and the bonus is so minor, but freaking storm bolters and force weapons are nothing minor.

All I see here, is a pair of GK players, who for some reason thing that they deserve better than having their basic troops equipped better than what any army can get even for double that cost.
MeQ, with a 5 point ranged weapon, 15 point melee weapon and more rules than most elite MeQ units-as troops. and 20 points is "too much" for it.
Next thing You'll say 1k sons are OP as they beat down sternguard in a shootout.

Look at my avatar. Look at my Dakka rank tracker. Do I look like someone who mainly plays GK to you?

15 point Power Weapons and 5-point Storm Bolters are overpriced as it is. As someone who plays Honour Guard a lot, 20-point Grey Knights with A1 are pretty shoddy, Troops or not. Claiming that the GKTs are the most points-efficient Troops choice in the game is insane. Eldar Jetbikes, Necron Warriors in Croissants, Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents, and IG Blobs are all better. GKSS are better than Tactical Marines, sure, but that's not exactly an achievement.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fine, i forgot bolt pistols. that 1 force weapon is still superior to bolt pistol+CCW combo against anything without a 2+ or 4++ (or cultists, but if you cant rout THESE out, you are doing something wrong.)

As for the mastery level, I counted it as mere 3 points-meaning I bought the ML for only 15, and split it 5 ways. "EVEN IF" they change for the ML? you mean you should get it for free?

Wytchs don't pay for drugs? what kind of silly statement is that? you think its NOT part of their cost? ofc it is. maybe one point, because they are so small to begin with and the bonus is so minor, but freaking storm bolters and force weapons are nothing minor.

All I see here, is a pair of GK players, who for some reason thing that they deserve better than having their basic troops equipped better than what any army can get even for double that cost.
MeQ, with a 5 point ranged weapon, 15 point melee weapon and more rules than most elite MeQ units-as troops. and 20 points is "too much" for it.
Next thing You'll say 1k sons are OP as they beat down sternguard in a shootout.

Actually I'm a long time Sisters player who just started a Space Wolves army. Thanks for playing though!

Also, Thousand Sons are over costed, the Sorcerer should make them Relentless while he's alive, and they should have an AP3 Heavy Bolter option for every 5 models in the unit.

Just for the record.

Boom, thanks for reminding me that they get 5 point storm bolters for free too. Since FW Carchodans troops only pay a point for a the second close combat attack, we can assume the storm bolter should only be worth 4 points.

They are obviously not going to tell us what they think each buff the PAGK guys get is, or concede that their 33 point terminators are OP vs Codex SM (which don't get them as a troop choice) so I don't know about you, but I'm leaving them to their echo chamber of GK+1.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fine, i forgot bolt pistols. that 1 force weapon is still superior to bolt pistol+CCW combo against anything without a 2+ or 4++ (or cultists, but if you cant rout THESE out, you are doing something wrong.)

Force weapon on a model with 1 attack is all but worthless. Its far inferior to bolt pistol+CCW in 90% of situations. Ignoring saves is nice, but its not enough of an advantage to pay more than 1-2 points for.

As for the mastery level, I counted it as mere 3 points-meaning I bought the ML for only 15, and split it 5 ways. "EVEN IF" they change for the ML? you mean you should get it for free?

Yes, because I can't take Meltaguns, missile launchers, plasma guns, or anything that helps against vehicles outside of melee(and need to pay 10 points for a Hammer on a dude with 1A)

Wytchs don't pay for drugs? what kind of silly statement is that? you think its NOT part of their cost? ofc it is. maybe one point, because they are so small to begin with and the bonus is so minor, but freaking storm bolters and force weapons are nothing minor.

Stormbolters are the nicest things Strike Marines have, and its still not that great. Especially since we lost Psybolt ammo. Force weapons are, again, almost worthless 90% of the time. They're just power swords, nothing more, as far usefulness goes. And again, not that great on dudes with 1A.

All I see here, is a pair of GK players, who for some reason thing that they deserve better than having their basic troops equipped better than what any army can get even for double that cost.
MeQ, with a 5 point ranged weapon, 15 point melee weapon and more rules than most elite MeQ units-as troops. and 20 points is "too much" for it.
Next thing You'll say 1k sons are OP as they beat down sternguard in a shootout.

Those 5 pt ranged and 15 pt melee weapons are on models who actually can get use out of them. The 15 pt power weapon is because its going to be on a dude with 3 attacks. The Stormbolter is also never taken on that dude for 5 points because there are far superior options and its way over costed.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Boom, thanks for reminding me that they get 5 point storm bolters for free too. Since FW Carchodans troops only pay a point for a the second close combat attack, we can assume the storm bolter should only be worth 4 points.

They are obviously not going to tell us what they think each buff the PAGK guys get is, or concede that their 33 point terminators are OP vs Codex SM (which don't get them as a troop choice) so I don't know about you, but I'm leaving them to their echo chamber of GK+1.

Grey Hunters have to pay points to take CCW without swapping Bolters for them, and CSM have to buy the extra attack out right. So no, not only do Carchadans have to pay for them.

And not everyone pays 5 points for Storm Bolters. Depending on the book they have been in the past 3 points, (and I'm sure I've seen them for 2 points somewhere as well).

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Boom, thanks for reminding me that they get 5 point storm bolters for free too. Since FW Carchodans troops only pay a point for a the second close combat attack, we can assume the storm bolter should only be worth 4 points.

They are obviously not going to tell us what they think each buff the PAGK guys get is, or concede that their 33 point terminators are OP vs Codex SM (which don't get them as a troop choice) so I don't know about you, but I'm leaving them to their echo chamber of GK+1.

Have you ever considered that the reason we're not conceding anything is because you're madly wrong, and aren't even trying to refute our counterpoints?

^An expensive AP3 heavy bolter, certainly, but it should be an option nonetheless.

Meantimewise the biggest weakness of Grey Knights is that they're an army loaded down with expensive generalist units in a game that's built to favor cheap specialist units; the problems started when the 5e Codex came out and ran with the assumption that you ought to be able to run an entire army with expensive generalist units only. They end up being either way too powerful if you make them as effective for their points as a specialist in any field (the problem with the 5e book back in 5e) or they end up being grossly expensive and generally ineffective if you make them pay for stuff they can't use (the problem with the 5e book in 6e and the new book).

There are two solutions for the underlying problem off the top of my head:

First: Drop the assumption that an army composed entirely of expensive generalists can function. Cheapen regular PAGK, run them either with force weapons as now and weaker ranged weapons (possibly pump Attacks on their profile) or take a weaker melee weapon and Psybolt ammo Storm Bolters. Put them back in an Inquisition rulebook with Inquisitorial Henchmen and Stormtroopers to fill the horrible gaps in running an army with an infantry arsenal consisting of four guns. Don't try and force the Grey Knights to run one unit that's a toolbox that does everything, because that never works in any situation.

Second: If you really want to keep them as a small elite army, go all the way. The Shrouding back in 3e was a tool designed to permit the Grey Knights to function as a small elite force, since small armies tend to win when they can bring all their forces to bear against a portion of the enemy army at a time. Bring back something similar that allows the Grey Knights to dictate the terms of the engagement instead of pitting twenty-point T4/3+ bodies against armies balanced to kill fourteen-point T4/3+ bodies on even terms.

My experiments on the subject have tended towards the first approach rather than the second since it doesn't screw with the general paradigm of the game quite so much, and since the Grey Knights' miniscule arsenal (four guns with five profiles and five melee weapons among the six units built out of their core plastic kits, compared to sixteen guns with twenty-three profiles and five melee weapons among eight units available to non-character vanilla Space Marines in power or Terminator armour plus more when Scouts and Centurions enter the picture) makes them difficult to construct as a whole army limited to just them without making the four guns more versatile than any gun has any right to be. Unfortunately my experiments were functional as per the 6e rules and I'm still in the process of updating them to the new rules and the approaches to the old Inquisition army books in general, so I can't post much specific information here.

Oh I agree, that the AP3 Heavy bolter would be a bit more expensive than normal (honestly I think it'd likely be about 5-10 points over the regular one) but the point stands: I think a LOT of things need touching up, not just GKSS.

This might sound crazy, but have you considered that maybe not alot of things need touching up, but just a few things need touching down?
The reason you see GKSS as inferior to begin with is that you compare them to the best of the best, not to the majority.

Compared to MOST troops, GKSS are great. compared to a Small handful of troublemakers the are not very good.
Its the troublemakers that need to be brought in line, not the majority.

 BoomWolf wrote:
This might sound crazy, but have you considered that maybe not alot of things need touching up, but just a few things need touching down?
The reason you see GKSS as inferior to begin with is that you compare them to the best of the best, not to the majority.

Compared to MOST troops, GKSS are great. compared to a Small handful of troublemakers the are not very good.
Its the troublemakers that need to be brought in line, not the majority.

Or you could compare the Grey Knights as a whole to the other factions as a whole. The Grey Knights don't have access to the special units the other factions have. So the few options they do have, have to pull double duty.

I have another post where I challenge anyone to make a tournament-competitive, 1850 point battleforged pure Grey Knight Army that doesn't include the Dreadknight, Stormraven, or Librarian. There is none. If you nerf the best units down to the worst, there is no army to play, as it cannot defeat a well designed army from ANY faction. The point of the challenge was to show that the other units don't measure up to to the other Codexes in terms of power. Those three units are the only things keeping the Grey Knights above water. The only way they could be toned back was if the rest of the units were buffed an equal amount.

So it doesn't matter how much Force Weapons, or Storm Bolters cost other factions. The fact is that even with all of these extra fluffy upgrades, the Grey Knights are not more powerful than the other factions. So if the upgrades aren't cost effective for the other factions, perhaps that is a problem to take up with their codexes, instead of trying to tear this one apart.

 BoomWolf wrote:
This might sound crazy, but have you considered that maybe not alot of things need touching up, but just a few things need touching down?
The reason you see GKSS as inferior to begin with is that you compare them to the best of the best, not to the majority.

Compared to MOST troops, GKSS are great. compared to a Small handful of troublemakers the are not very good.
Its the troublemakers that need to be brought in line, not the majority.

When using basic Tact Marines as a guideline they're still just as fragile, and like regular Marines, a bit over cost (regular Marines and CSM could stand to go down 2ppm base at this point, and Sisters should be around 9-10 themselves to boot). With how prevalent AP3 has become in the game a 3+ armor save is costing more than it needs too. It works well in regular combat were your average model doesn't have AP, but against shooting it's far less useful.

Even when you don't compare them to "the best" they hardly come out looking like they're #1 in the basic troops department.

 BoomWolf wrote:
This might sound crazy, but have you considered that maybe not alot of things need touching up, but just a few things need touching down?
The reason you see GKSS as inferior to begin with is that you compare them to the best of the best, not to the majority.

Compared to MOST troops, GKSS are great. compared to a Small handful of troublemakers the are not very good.
Its the troublemakers that need to be brought in line, not the majority.

Counterproposal: Point me at an army that doesn't have any models in Troops that are better than Grey Knight Strike Squads.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
This might sound crazy, but have you considered that maybe not alot of things need touching up, but just a few things need touching down?
The reason you see GKSS as inferior to begin with is that you compare them to the best of the best, not to the majority.

Compared to MOST troops, GKSS are great. compared to a Small handful of troublemakers the are not very good.
Its the troublemakers that need to be brought in line, not the majority.

Counterproposal: Point me at an army that doesn't have any models in Troops that are better than Grey Knight Strike Squads.

I think we're going about this the wrong way, instead of arguing a price reduction, we should instead perhaps buff them MORE at a slight ppm increase. As a generalist unit, yea they're good, but not cost effective. For 210 points on a un-upgraded squad and no DT, we get 20 shots at 24 inch range, 10 melee attacks CC and the standard 6 inch move. Now Grey Knights are an assault army, they're forced to push forward because of their inferior range compared to pretty much every other army, it's the entire reason they HAVE the stormbolters, so they can assault and get off a equivalent to rapid fire in the same turn. Psycannons on PAGK now serve as a counter assault deterrent, useless in all cases except where the enemy is advancing on you.

Now that we've acknowledged the SS as a weak assault unit, we should instead buff them in that aspect, in short; 2 attacks. BUT we achieve this instead by lowering the costs of falchions instead of adding to them the attack on their base statline. However this would in turn buff every other unit, so the argument can be made to tack it onto the base statline instead, further more then we need to reconsider the Purifiers which I feel would still be in a good place with their ML2, Fearless, and 4 special weapons . I feel this would finally give the GK a proper identity as to what they're supposed to do.

Would reducing falchion costs be the only change needed you think?

EDIT: I was also considering moving Purgation squads from HS to Troops... at this point that unit is extinct as the DK can do it better. It would give the Troop selection a more shooty choice.

ForeverARookie wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
This might sound crazy, but have you considered that maybe not alot of things need touching up, but just a few things need touching down?
The reason you see GKSS as inferior to begin with is that you compare them to the best of the best, not to the majority.

Compared to MOST troops, GKSS are great. compared to a Small handful of troublemakers the are not very good.
Its the troublemakers that need to be brought in line, not the majority.

I have another post where I challenge anyone to make a tournament-competitive, 1850 point battleforged pure Grey Knight Army that doesn't include the Dreadknight, Stormraven, or Librarian. There is none. If you nerf the best units down to the worst, there is no army to play, as it cannot defeat a well designed army from ANY faction. The point of the challenge was to show that the other units don't measure up to to the other Codexes in terms of power. Those three units are the only things keeping the Grey Knights above water. The only way they could be toned back was if the rest of the units were buffed an equal amount.

You misunderstood me.
What I meant by comparing them to the best, is not that they are compared to the best GK units, but to the best troops in other armies.
In comparison to most codcie's troops, the strike squads are great.



AnomanderRake-proposal countered. every single codex out there except enclaves tau once you take out the dedicated transports. and if you do count them, than everyone except enclaves, eldar and necrons.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You misunderstood me.
What I meant by comparing them to the best, is not that they are compared to the best GK units, but to the best troops in other armies.
In comparison to most codcie's troops, the strike squads are great.

AnomanderRake-proposal countered. every single codex out there except enclaves tau once you take out the dedicated transports. and if you do count them, than everyone except enclaves, eldar and necrons.

Counter to your retort to AnomanderRake's proposal.

Astra Militarum has Veterans. They're base 60 points for 10 Veterans with the same Ballistic Skill as Grey Knights. They can take Missile Launcher with Flakk misiles, so they have a model with a 48" range, and the option to Skyfire with a S7 Missile.Three Veterans can take Sniper Rifles to increase their range to 36" and wound high-toughness enemies on a 4+. As a ranged unit, they can take the Forward Sentries upgrade to improve their cover save by 1 (Ruins become a 3+)

101 points, a full 9 points less than a bare bones Strike Squad gets you
10 Veterans with (usually) 3+ cover saves, opposed to 5 models with 3+ Armor saves.
The same BS4 that Grey Knights get.
A Missile Launcher and 3 Sniper Rifles for dealing with range, high toughness, or Fliers (Flakk Missiles), plus five more Veterans with Lasguns, opposed to the 5 Storm Bolters the Grey Knights have in total.

Veterans are great for parking on objectives because they have ranged weapons to reach out and touch someone from the safety of their ruins, they're relatively cheap, even fully upgraded, and the rest of the army can really lay down the hurt at long range, preventing the enemy from focusing on the Veterans' elimination in most cases. A ranged unit usually has so much between it and the enemy that they don't need to worry about close combat, so they aren't forced to take the close combat upgrades, freeing up more points for more units laying down more firepower, and splitting up the points so it is less of a loss if the enemy does destroy one of them.

That's the only other physical book I own besides Grey Knights, otherwise I would give more examples. I compared their ranged potential because being as the Grey Knight Strike Squads only have 1 attack each, they clearly weren't meant to have a close combat focus.

Sniper rifles ad flakk missiles...are you even serious at this point?

 Grey Templar wrote:

Force weapon on a model with 1 attack is all but worthless. Its far inferior to bolt pistol+CCW in 90% of situations. Ignoring saves is nice, but its not enough of an advantage to pay more than 1-2 points for.

90% seems to be pushing it a bit. 1 attack with a power weapons is better than 2 without against 3+ saves - of which there are an awful lot. I mean, that accounts for most of SoB, Space Wolves, Space Marines, Blood Angels, CSMs and Necrons - plus a lot of models in Dark Angels, Eldar, Tyranids and Tau. Seems like a bit more than 10% (and, in case it matters, they're equal against 4+ saves, and the pistol/CCW is better against other saves - unless they have multiple wounds). Also, whilst force weapons may not always be useful, they're still a useful option to have - especially on models with S5 attacks. Aside from characters, MCs are pretty prevalent these days, and there are also quite a few units with multiple wounds. Your mileage may very, but complaining about them seems a little dubious when a) you're getting them at a massive discount and b) if you don't want to use force weapons, you can use a different power. Or, hell, use those psychic dice to fuel a librarian or somesuch. Having every squad generate power dice gives you a hell of an edge in the psychic phase.

Anyway, as a question, would GK players be willing to sacrifice force weapons and psychic ability for a reduced price on strike squads (or any other GK squads, for that matter)?

For the record, I guess I'm thinking of the old Daemonhunters book - whereby (if I recall correctly) basic squads didn't have any psychic ability beyond S6 weapons.

Only thing i can say to the people complaining about knights being different to a vanilla marine is that if you want to get all of their gear and options play vanilla marines. You cant honestly expect to be space marines with all the extra parts because what would be the point of the vanilla dex? Play with the hand you've been dealt, there are far worse books that have been released

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sniper rifles ad flakk missiles...are you even serious at this point?

What's wrong with that? Most of the time the Missile Launcher and Sniper Rifles will be shooting at ground targets, so there is no problem. And the 'Smite at Will' order allows the Missile Launcher to shoot at a flier while the rest of the unit fires on ground targets.

And why not? They can take it and still be a cheaper shooting unit with more firepower than the Strike Squad.

3 things that are wrong with that:

1-they are pathetic weapons nobody ever even CONSIDERS for a competetive list.

2-they are still inferior to strike squads in shooting, as even with added range, the power is lower and the need to stand still. also far more suspect to moral checks ruining the shooting.

3-even if they were as good, or better than strikes in that setup, the strikes were still far superior in assault and in psyking.

Sure, they are superior in assault. But they'll almost never get there, and the points should reflect that.

On top of the fact they're actually still piss poor in assault. Being better than IG veterans isn't an achievement. Its like touting the fact you can read better than a 3 year old is an achievement.

Against T4 3+ save.

10 Strike Marines with no special upgrades.

20 Stormbolter shots: 20(2/3)(.5)(1/3) = 2.2 unsaved wounds.

20 attacks: 20(.5)(.5)=5 unsaved wounds.

So 10 PAGK with swords do 7.2 unsaved wounds on the turn they charge.

This isn't too shabby, but we've assumed the squad too no upgrades and no casualties before assaulting. Which is never going to happen. And the only logical weapon upgrade prevents you from assaulting and takes away one of your force weapons.

So you are actually looking at either causing 3 unsaved wounds with shooting OR 4.33 unsaved wounds in melee. Again assuming you take no casualties beforehand.

Compare that to the typical Tactical squad.

Meltagun, missile launcher, combi-melta.

Shooting: 3.222 unsaved wounds(missile, 2 melta shots, and 14 bolters)

Assault: 1.666 unsaved wounds.

So you are only causing about 2.6 more unsaved wounds in melee and about the same in shooting.

2.6 more unsaved wounds in melee is NOT worth the current price difference, especially when you also lose effectiveness in shooting vehicles.

 BoomWolf wrote:
3 things that are wrong with that:

1-they are pathetic weapons nobody ever even CONSIDERS for a competetive list.

2-they are still inferior to strike squads in shooting, as even with added range, the power is lower and the need to stand still. also far more suspect to moral checks ruining the shooting.

3-even if they were as good, or better than strikes in that setup, the strikes were still far superior in assault and in psyking.

Edit: correction to retort to first point

1-48" S8 AP3 Heavy 1, or 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Skyfire.
For the same cost as a Psycannon, you trade 4 24" shots for 1 48" shot, you get +1 Strength and Ap3 vs ground targets, and and for ten points more gain Skyfire vs flying targets. I'd take that over the current PAGK Psycannon, though the Flakk misiles are overpriced.

2-Against a standard Space Marine army. The Missile Launcher will hit on a 3+, wound on a 2+, and will ignore the 3+ armor save. (0.56 unsaved wounds)
the 3 Sniper Rifles hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+, ignoring armor saves on a 6. (2.17 unsaved wounds)
the 5 Lasguns hit on 3+, wound on 5+, and have to get through the 3+ armor save. (0.37 unwounds)
That totals to 3 unsaved wounds from the Veterans.
The Grey Knight Strike Squad's Storm Bolters hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+, and have to get through a 3+ armor save (1 unsaved wound from the Strike Squad)
At T6/AV10 the Lasguns whiff out, but they weren't doing much anyway. At T8/AV11 the Storm Bolters whiff out, leaving only the Veterans' Missile Launcher and Sniper Rifles able to hurt anything. So no. They are not inferior. They deal more wounds, and at longer range. This build of Veterans are objectively better at shooting than a base Strike Squad.

3-Close combat abilities don't mean anything if they never end up in close combat. The game heavily favors shooting, and Strike Squads get shot to pieces trying to get into their enemy's face. Veterans can sit in the safety of their 3+ cover save without having to worry about AP or Rending from enemy attacks. The Veterans' lower cost means that the player can bring more units, so it matters even less when models or units are killed. Every unit in a Grey Knight army is an investment. If any of them don't earn their points back during the game, your odds of victory are greatly diminished.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:


If you want to focus on game design and point value, show us where the PAGK are over priced. A generic tactical is 14 points, generate no warp charge, has no force weapon, can't deepstrike has no access to psycannons or other GK weaponry and is not supportable by 33 point termies in anywhere in the codex, much less as troops.

They're also currently a rather bad Troops choice. Having Force Weapons on A1 models that cost 20 PPM but die like 14 PPM models isn't that good, and Plasma Guns or Meltaguns are easily comparable to Psycannons.

my DE cost 9ppm while guardsmen cost 4pmm. I get no increase in durbility, they should be buffed!


durability isnt everything. GK get a lot of offensive power in their basic troops. A force weapon, even on a 1 attack model is something. A storm bolter is better than a regular bolter. Being a psyker is worth something. Deep strike is worth something.

You don't get a durability buff, but you do have a WS and BS buff which is almost as good. It makes the models who do reach combat do more damage than the guardsmen. Your weapon is also significantly better. while the Storm bolter is only slightly better than a normal bolter and we have no WS or BS increase over a Tactical marine.

ForeverARookie wrote:

1-48" S8 AP3 Heavy 1, or 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Skyfire.
For the same cost as a Psycannon, you trade 4 24" shots for 1 48" shot, you get +1 Strength and Ap3 vs ground targets, and gain Skyfire vs flying targets.

Wait, aren't psycannons 15pts at the moment?

I know they're less than 25 - which is what a missile launcher with flakk missiles costs.

ForeverARookie wrote:
I'd take that over the current PAGK Psycannon.

If you're willing to pay the 25pts, I'd much rather see GKs with missile launchers than psycannons.

 vipoid wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

1-48" S8 AP3 Heavy 1, or 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Skyfire.
For the same cost as a Psycannon, you trade 4 24" shots for 1 48" shot, you get +1 Strength and Ap3 vs ground targets, and gain Skyfire vs flying targets.

Wait, aren't psycannons 15pts at the moment?

I know they're less than 25 - which is what a missile launcher with flakk missiles costs.

ForeverARookie wrote:
I'd take that over the current PAGK Psycannon.

If you're willing to pay the 25pts, I'd much rather see GKs with missile launchers than psycannons.

Right, The Missile launcher alone is 15 points, the Flakk Missiles are another 10.

If Grey Knights had access to Missile Launchers, I'd take them on Purgation Squads so they could finally actually fill the Devistator role they were supposedly designed for.

Quickjager wrote:
I think we're going about this the wrong way, instead of arguing a price reduction, we should instead perhaps buff them MORE at a slight ppm increase. As a generalist unit, yea they're good, but not cost effective. For 210 points on a un-upgraded squad and no DT, we get 20 shots at 24 inch range, 10 melee attacks CC and the standard 6 inch move. Now Grey Knights are an assault army, they're forced to push forward because of their inferior range compared to pretty much every other army, it's the entire reason they HAVE the stormbolters, so they can assault and get off a equivalent to rapid fire in the same turn. Psycannons on PAGK now serve as a counter assault deterrent, useless in all cases except where the enemy is advancing on you.

Going to have to make up for how they're overcosted to start with before you bump them up in cost.

Quickjager wrote:
EDIT: I was also considering moving Purgation squads from HS to Troops... at this point that unit is extinct as the DK can do it better. It would give the Troop selection a more shooty choice.

Give them Slow and Purposeful and they'd be fine as HS without being overpowered.

S&P would work well for purgators