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2014/12/01 09:20:30
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
adamsouza wrote: Did 5th edition Grey Knights codex mention Centurions and Gravguns ?
Yeah, I'll take the info from the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th, and 7th edition Space Marine Codexes on pretty much anything Space Marine related over what the Matt Ward 5th Edition Grey Knights Codex has to say.
Tough, doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose what is canon and what is not when it is written in black and white so clearly. Bear in mind that Ward also wrote 5th Ed Blood Angels and Space Marines.
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2014/12/01 11:20:46
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
adamsouza wrote: Did 5th edition Grey Knights codex mention Centurions and Gravguns ?
Yeah, I'll take the info from the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th, and 7th edition Space Marine Codexes on pretty much anything Space Marine related over what the Matt Ward 5th Edition Grey Knights Codex has to say.
Tough, doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose what is canon and what is not when it is written in black and white so clearly. Bear in mind that Ward also wrote 5th Ed Blood Angels and Space Marines.
Yes you can!
2014/12/01 11:34:18
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
th3maninblak wrote: Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
Actually I think it would be far more beneficial to the game to fix the Elder Codex than make another broken one. Sadly GW does not seem to have much interest in making the game better.
I would guess the new BA Codex will focus on one element of the Codex (looking like Death Company), screw over some other elements for no apparent reason and make the supplemental Codex mandatory to boost the power of the focussed army element - like they did with Dark Eldar.
Looks like a nice cover art - and they seemed to commissioned a new artist (or given them a decent amount of work) for internals as there does seem to be new art coming through
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 11:35:36
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
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Does something look very off about the head to anyone else? Like he has an abnormally long neck to actually be able to look down in that helmet or something?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2014/12/01 11:59:09
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.
Once again, you're assuming putting a black enraged marine into terminator armour means the armour will be lost and destroyed. It can be recovered and repaired, even if the marine fulfills his death in combat objective.
I can understand what you're saying, but 40K isn't the only universe to dramatically change their fluff just for the sake of it. Pretty much everything changes their fluff to some degree. Star Wars being one that comes to mind. It's just the way of the world.
sockwithaticket wrote: Well the codex entry says that Chaplains look every brother in the eye on the eve of battle and identify tell tale signs, taking away anyone who displays any such identifiers; implying that in the intial stages of succumbing to the Black Rage individuals are able to be directed an interacted with.
You might also reasonably assume that a Chapter that's dealt with the Black Rage for millenia would c onduct these checks before allowing someone into a suit of Terminator armour.
It's not going to be 100% effective as combat situations will often prohibit being able to carry out such pre-battle rituals and we know that the Black Rage can manifest during battle, but brothers succumbing while in Terminator armour are going to be so rare as to not be worth making a unit entry for, let alone a whole kit.
Terminator Death Company might make sense as a Lone Wolf type unit with a 1 per 5 regular Death Company limit or something.
We have seen squads fall to the black rage before in the books. I don't think it's out the question really. Sure, they were brought on by agents of chaos in each case in order to try and turn the Blood Angels but I think it's not that far fetched to come up with some fluff for it. Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
TalonZahn wrote: Every. Single. Time....the DC Terminator conversation comes up, I point people to the text that Jinx put up. There's precedent, so it's not like this is new fluff out of nowhere.
The Black Rage can show up at any time before, during, or after a battle. If a marine is in TDA and goes nuts, who's going to take him out of it?
No one.
Throw black paint on him and he's ready. Once he turns himself to paste in the suit, they can hose it out and paint it red.
Except... you know.. that isn't how it generally happens. There aren't roving bands of chapter serfs convienently walking around the battlefield carrying extra purity seals and buckets of black paint looking for marines that only just lost their cocoa puffs to add a new coat of black to. Go look up the Death Company entry in the current codex. In the rituals and preparations BEFORE the battle, the chaplains inspect the company and see if anyone has or is starting to succumb. If they've succumbed, the chaplains perform a ritual and the marine passes out into the chaplain's arms (so he's frequently might not even be in his armor) and is taken away. It is at that point that their armor is painted black BEFORE the battle. It isn't a case of terminators on the battlefield suddenly going crazy. This is a process and there is currently NO justification for conceiveably throwing away a suit of revered armor on a crazy person. The only "justification" is from a PLAYER perspective in that a 2+/5++ FNP unit with buffed stats is useful. It makes no sense on the part of the chapter that needs to look at the long term (centuries or even millenia) consequences of losing something that they in all likelihood won't be able to replace. There is so much ignorance masquerading as justification in this thread that it is mind boggling. If a marine does rarely succumb DURING the battle (like in the HH novel), they wouldn't be in a SQUAD of death company marines now would they with their armor painted black? Unless these death co terminators are like SW lone wolves, even that "justification" makes no sense. Or you think that a looney marine who thinks the HH is happening RIGHT NOW can calm down long enough for the paint to be applied and dry on his terminator armor. UGHH... Or do you think that BA armor comes with a toggle switch that changes its color instantly so he can join the squad of fellow loonies?
Or easy solution, just paint you're DC termies red and let your opponent know they fell to the black rage during the battle. Even add some sort of fluff to it. The enemy has an artefact that the blood angels seem to be very sensitive to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorWesJanson wrote: So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
Well you did get the Stormraven from us. There will be things that we still don't get from C:SM. I.e. Thunderfire Cannons and I'm not expecting to get Centurions either. The Sky Talon is also still to be determined. You can't have a moan and get brand new stuff every codex and then tell us that we aren't allowed anything new at all.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/12/01 13:07:38
2014/12/01 12:42:04
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
OIIIIIIO wrote: That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them.
"Our Land Raiders will blot out the sun!"
"Then we shall fight in the... wait, what?"
LOL ... Thing about them being DT and having DS ... I only ever DS one once ... after that I thought about it and disagreed with the LR coming in from reserves that way. Have never done it since.
When I did DS it, I told the guy that everything I had was DS'ing (5th ed).. he paid little attention. He was playing Tau and put all of his stuff in one corner. I had a 14 man DC with a Chappy inside the LR and put it about 3 inches in front of his entire army. He asked what I was doing and I told him my LR had DS. His response was pure gold: Oh, ok I just thought ... WHAT? They can DS?!?
OT: The whole terminator/Honour Guard thing reminds me of that rumour about the ones called Blood Brothers ... wonder if they are the ones that came back from the Rage and they put them in TDA. If so .... thinking 2 wounds WS5?
There are some chapters that think the black rage is their salvation. So perhaps they would be more likely to put their Death Company in termie suits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 13:09:25
2014/12/01 13:52:10
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
This. Oh so much this. I'm a fluff fanatic but I'll forever be overjoyed with fluff re-hauls because of awesome new miniatures. Fluff is fantastic, but new miniatures are even better!
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
2014/12/01 14:01:03
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
Like most of us BA addicts I'm excited and yet fearful of the new release! not sure I like the bigger base size hijinks, it screams to me it's being done to stop other resin cast base makers from profiting? nothing really game advantageous? the models I like so far. Tactical squad was certainly left of centre and now I have 20 painted Tacs to sell as the OCD in me needs new ones :-) while we can guess as much as we want lets just man up and wait and see what appears in the next week or two eh!
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2014/12/01 14:17:45
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2014/12/01 14:40:43
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
MajorWesJanson wrote: So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
This is my problem with them getting grav - I'm REALLY hoping they don't get Dev Centurions. SM are already top tier, giving them everything and then some would theoretically put them at Eldar levels.
th3maninblak wrote: I think 5th ed was really good for marine balance until grey knights, honestly. The late 5th ed FAQ for dark angels gave them a place in the scene, vanilla marines had some really strong builds and a lot of viable options, and space wolves/blood angels were both really unique. So far with the new books, Dark Angels are fine (a bit underpowered, but still a fun and rewarding army), grey knights were fixed and brought to a level in line with everyone else, vanilla marines have one of the best and most versatile books of all time, and space wolves have EASILY the strongest of the 7th ed books.
If BA can keep their unique feel and be brought out of the dark ages after 2 editions of a savage nerf bat assault, then we can get back to the balance that was 5th ed.
Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
I don't know how well you remember 5th ed, but Vanilla Marines were kind of mid-tier, especially after BA dropped, since it had nearly everything that C:SM had in it (BA were upper-mid tier). Space Wolves were considered broken, they were the best army from release until the end of 5th. GK were definitely broken as well until 6th ed dropped. As for the outdated BT and DA, DA had ridiculously cheap Terminators and Land Speeder Typhoons and BT were pretty mediocre. So Marines were pretty much all over the place in terms of power, but were largely stronger than the majority of other races, which was their main problem - there's a reason people called 5th ed the "Marine edition".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 14:41:56
I suppose, but at 350 points for the squad you'd be looking at 70 points per model, or 35 points per terminator wound. That's too high, especially in a world with 30-33 point GK and Chaos terminators and 25 point honor guard. Personally I'd just go all power axes and let the S6 AP2 carry the day for me to save points. Also, 16 attacks isn't anything to write home about. Also, they wouldn't be in melee turn 2, unless your opponent charges them or advances on one of your land raiders or something, as deepstriking or coming in via flyer means no charge on T2.
I don't know if people are up in arms over paladins anymore now that their wound allocation shenanigans from 5th edition are long gone.
Red butcher terminators are 275 for 5 guys, WS5, W2, 2+/4++, 6+ FnP, with rage, hatred and 2 power axes, so 5 S5 AP2 attacks each on the charge....for 55 each, and each additional costing 45 points (so call is 50 each). They are hardly out of line in the grander scheme of things.
Lets face it here...it's still a 5+ invul melee unit that will be splattered by S8+ AP2 fire power and needs either a super expensive ride or to risk deep striking into the game.
Regardless, we are a ways off-topic, so lets drop it for now, or take it elsewhere.
Why is 35 points per terminator wound with WS5 too much? I already pay 40 points per WS4 terminator wound in my vanilla army.
Because the example DC terminator would have 1 attack for 35 points, probably with a power weapon, and your terminator has 2 attacks with a power FIST. A chaos or GK terminator is 31-33 points for 2 power weapon attacks. The second wound is worth less than the first one as well, since it can be instant death'ed off.
Remember here, a paladin is 27.5 points for a 1 attack 1 wound half-a-paladin, and the proposed DC isn't really any better than him.
As for paying 40 points for a WS4 powerfist terminator....you are paying too much. "Tactical" terminator really should be like 35-38 points each at most. They've been over priced forever.
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2014/12/01 14:58:46
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
Why would they do that? This thread along with countless others across the Internet are testament to the fact Blood Angels have a huge independent following.
The fluff is important – extremely important – to me too, but this hobby and the universe in which it exists is a constantly changing and developing thing. We can't let it stagnate and be locked in the past.
It's supposed to be fun, just try not to take it too seriously.
2014/12/01 15:23:13
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
th3maninblak wrote: Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
Actually I think it would be far more beneficial to the game to fix the Elder Codex than make another broken one. Sadly GW does not seem to have much interest in making the game better.
I would guess the new BA Codex will focus on one element of the Codex (looking like Death Company), screw over some other elements for no apparent reason and make the supplemental Codex mandatory to boost the power of the focussed army element - like they did with Dark Eldar.
I think GW's been doing a good job with regards to balance since late 6th edition. And I don't buy the notion that the main DE codex is weak and requires the HC supplement. I think the HC supplement is a really good one, but regular DE are solid.
Tyranids were perhaps the nadir during this time, but their recent boosts help them a lot without imbalancing them. The issue is that Eldar are OP, IMO. Tau have some issues too, but I think Eldar are the bigger outlier and the thing that's distorting the game. Better balance Eldar -- and I think that means some targeted tweaks (including a few boosts too) and not a full-on nerf bat assault -- and I think the game would be in decent shape. At least in regards to the main codicies themselves.
Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I really think we could see some changes to Eldar in the year to come. In the meantime, I expect that BA will be solid but not a cheesefest.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
While fluff has to have a little bit of flex, it can't be retconned or re-written at will or else it stops meaning anything. One of the big reasons people love 40k above other games is the richness of the universe and the way it's been established. Radical change to that threatens internal coherence and the wilingness to buy into it..
There's also an irony in invoking narrative as a defence of ignoring/dramatically changing fluff. I have a few close friends who are creative types and have met a number of their friends and associates who are also creative types, the writers among them have all got stories of editors and publishers telling them some variation of: consistent application of whatever internal logic their setting has and strong discipline,are the key to establishing a good narrative. An open sandbox where anything goes so long as it's cool works towards being the antithesis of a narrative.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
Why would they do that? This thread along with countless others across the Internet are testament to the fact Blood Angels have a huge independent following.
The fluff is important – extremely important – to me too, but this hobby and the universe in which it exists is a constantly changing and developing thing. We can't let it stagnate and be locked in the past.
It's supposed to be fun, just try not to take it too seriously.
But that was supposed to be the point of my comment; you don't consider this particular thing important, so your response is "get over it", "don't take it seriously" etc etc, but would you enjoy being subjected to that kind of condescension if things you DO consider important were changed/removed? "Blood Angels are just red Marines anyway duder, get over it, why so srs, lulz" etc might be a technically valid response in the sense that anyone is allowed to hold and to express their opinions, but it's still crass and tactless to respond in that fashion to someone who's having their enjoyment of their hobby diminished.
EDIT: Also what sock said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:31:46
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2014/12/01 16:33:57
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
That is another cool cover. I do like the style of the artist they've hired to do the hardback covers as most of them have been quite good. I know there was a link posted a few months back to the deviantart page for him/her so I'll have to try and find it. The only one I haven't been a fan of is the space wolf one which was still good but just not great. I would have preferred if they used the excellent Blood of Asaheim novel cover instead but that is unlikely given the flak they got for reusing (excellent) art for the chaos cover.
2014/12/01 17:15:53
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours First post updated 31/11/2014
More important mark IV plastic legs on the tactical to the right .
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
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Legion: Dark Angels 
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