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I'm about to start work on a long fiction piece that will feature, at various points, Guardsmen, Sisters of Battle, Tau and Demons (the first I am already familliar with, the latter I know how I'm going to write), and I have a few questions on the middle two. As I don't have the relevant codexes, forgive me if I ask any obvious questions.

Firstly, the Sisters:

- Would any part of their training be an education in xenos? For example, would they be more familliar with the Tau and what they can do than your average Joe Guardsman, who just thinks of them as 'the blue guys over there'?

- Their acts of faith are represented in-game by an invulnerable save with a tangible effect, is such a thing possible in the fluff? I'm thinking something along the lines of Eupharati Keeler's defence against the Demon in False Gods, where she actualyl manifests power to fight the Warp and protect herself, despite not being a psyker. How would Sisters react if one of their number basically performed a miraculous feat like surviving a Plasma blast?

- If fighting with Guard units, would they keep themselves to themselves, or fight amongst the Guardsmen? Same for non-combat situations, would they share facilities and such?


And the Tau:

- Given their superior mobility, would the Tau engage in a pitched battle with the Imperium over an objective, or would they stick to hit-and-run attacks and surgical strikes?

- In game Tau have low leadership, in fluff do Tau run often? And if so, is there any precedent for how this is handled by their commanders or ethereals? Would they take the summary execution route as per Commissars, or simply punish them in a more formal manner, maybe like a court martial?


- What kind of damage could Battlesuits of various types take before the pilot dies or withdraws? Could an XV8 Crisis keep fighting with an arm or leg off, or its jetpack smashed?

Thanks in advance!

I suspect the Adepta Sororitas will have a similar training style to Astartes and have some sort of hypnotherapy indoctrination regimen.

The Sororitas would be taught certain things about Xenos races - primarily how to kill them, they are taught from childhood that "they are evil", they will also learn their weaknesses and how to exploit them - it will not be as detailed or comprehensive as that of the Deathwatch but given that they can be dispatched to the far flung corners of the Imperium at short notice they will be taught quite a bit in the same was as Astartes are. Its likely they will also be taught about Tau propaganda and how to combat it with the Faithful whom they will come into contact with defending sacred sites or at least how to spot it so that Heretics can be dealt with.......

If you are looking at writing some SOB fiction - highly recommend these pieces here which will also help with their mind set / indoctrination and may also answer your questions

1. Bolter B-Word Privileges: Ginevra begins her Novitiate, the hard way.
2. Ollanius Pius Requiem: Novice Ginevra encounters the Imperial Guard. There is singing.
3. Able Baker: Expect some sort of Inquisition.
4. The Beginning: Every Sister's story begins with tragedy... and paperwork.
5. Dancing with the Astartes: The finale, involving the galaxy's nicest Space Marine, a shopping trip, and permanent scarring.

Also the excellent Sisters of Vengeance: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547273.page

re Acts of Faith / Shield of Faith - the latter is the invulnerable save and really represents a minute portion of the Emperors Divine will protecting his loyal subjects - or it does to me - this does go to the heart of what the Emperor actually is or has become and what they are worshiping - is it a dark reflection of his original intent that has become a powerful warp entity fed by the worship and sacrifice of untold Trillions of souls?

If a Sister somehow survived a plasma blast or similar they would likely merely see it as "The Emperor Protects" unless there was any obvious Divine element - it might then be investigated to see if was a true miracle. Obviously if there is anything Chaotic that's a very different matter - although again I see it as the Sororitas as "marked" by the Emperor as his (the same as the Chaos powers mark their own" and so this does explain part of the protection for corruption etc.

Guard units - pretty much every source from the Codex to the Cain novels of BL confirms that the Guard, recruits and Veterans alike are normally inspired by the presence of the Sororitas and see them as instruments of the Divine will of the Emperor - again piety is not a unusual thing in the Imperium - even cynical veterans like Amberely and Cain are true believers......The Sororitas would fight along side them - although some Sisters are less tolerant than others so this can cause issues as seen in the Armgeddon Campaign - on the other hand they individually have superior firepower and armour and can serve in a similar manner as Astartes, although their zeal can cause them to overreach -again same as Astartes and be less tolerant of the inability of the Guard to back them up. They would normally retain their own C+C set up and comms and it would depend on their leader how integrated they would become - if at all. Lastly they may even have different campaign objectives or restrictions - defending or recovering a holy relic may be all that they are there to do.

Outside combat, they would likely keep themselves to themselves for the most part- the sisters Hospitalitor on the other hand are noted as seen as angels by the guard for their medical abilities.

Of course its 40k so you can make it what you want and the above is just mine and other peoples interpretation and no more valid than any none else's

Yes! My story made the list!
Ahem...
Look at the history of Medieval monasticism, in particular the way the convents interacted with the outside world. They will be very xenophobic, even by 40k standards and will not socialize with the outside world. For them, their Order is their world.
As for the "Miracle" part, I think they'd look at it as such and declare the sister in question a Living Saint. (After a lengthy and probably painful investigation.)

Edit: Here's a little info for you!
http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-religion/medieval-convent.htm

Cheers, Mr Morden, a supremely informative post. I've already read and loved the Novice Ginerva stuff, so I'll be using that as inspiration for sure, and I'll have to check out the other one you linked; I think I looked ages ago but never got around to finishing it.

Thanks for confirming/clarifying the Shield of Faith stuff as well. The story will involve the concepts of Faith a lot on all sides, and the dichotomy of the Emperor as a God, a man and a devil, so I plan to work in a lot about the slightly differing SoB and Guard views on the matter. Also


I like the idea of Sisters in battle having a similar effect on Guardsmen as Astartes would, being inspiring but also a little uncontrollable, I can see some character conflict cropping up there between the Sisters and Guard commanders, while the regular guardsmen are far more welcoming of them.

That just about clears it up for the Sisters, now I just need some clarification on the Tau stuff!
Thanks all!

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm about to start work on a long fiction piece that will feature, at various points, Guardsmen, Sisters of Battle, Tau and Demons (the first I am already familliar with, the latter I know how I'm going to write), and I have a few questions on the middle two. As I don't have the relevant codexes, forgive me if I ask any obvious questions.

Firstly, the Sisters:

- Would any part of their training be an education in xenos? For example, would they be more familliar with the Tau and what they can do than your average Joe Guardsman, who just thinks of them as 'the blue guys over there'?

To some extent but, as mentioned previously, the Sisters aren't the sort who will bargain or negotiate with a Xenos. All Xenos are evil and heretical, because they deny His dominion over the galaxy, and they fail because they cannot know the Emperor's light.

 Paradigm wrote:
- Their acts of faith are represented in-game by an invulnerable save with a tangible effect, is such a thing possible in the fluff? I'm thinking something along the lines of Eupharati Keeler's defence against the Demon in False Gods, where she actualyl manifests power to fight the Warp and protect herself, despite not being a psyker. How would Sisters react if one of their number basically performed a miraculous feat like surviving a Plasma blast?

They would nod and smile and all agree that the Emperor was smiling on her on that day. The enemy sought to kill her, and He reached down His hand and shielded her from harm. His bolter and His powersword grant comfort to the Faithful.

 Paradigm wrote:
- If fighting with Guard units, would they keep themselves to themselves, or fight amongst the Guardsmen? Same for non-combat situations, would they share facilities and such?

They tend to keep to themselves, because the average Guardsman will probably commit some minor heresy for which the Sister sets them on fire. They are an intolerant bunch. I am assuming that you mean Battle-Sisters here, and not the Orders Hospitaler or the Orders Famulous, who do deal with non-Sisters on a much more frequent basis.

Also, for the Guardsmen, depending on the unit and its gender-integration, having a bunch of relatively young women around in power armor may lead to certain disciplinary problems, which is a headache for the Commissariat, who would probably (respectfully) request that the Sisters keep to their own area.

 Paradigm wrote:
And the Tau:

- Given their superior mobility, would the Tau engage in a pitched battle with the Imperium over an objective, or would they stick to hit-and-run attacks and surgical strikes?

Depends on how stiff the Imperial resistance is at the location, and whether the Imperium has an interest in defending it at all costs, or taking to the field to eradicate the enemy. In the former case, the Imperium is playing smart and denying the Tau their preferred combat doctrine.

 Paradigm wrote:
- In game Tau have low leadership, in fluff do Tau run often? And if so, is there any precedent for how this is handled by their commanders or ethereals? Would they take the summary execution route as per Commissars, or simply punish them in a more formal manner, maybe like a court martial?

Not sure there is any fluff that covers that situation. I don't think they have a Commissariat, but the honor blades suggest that they might commit seppuku, just like the samurai they are meant to emulate.

 Paradigm wrote:
- What kind of damage could Battlesuits of various types take before the pilot dies or withdraws? Could an XV8 Crisis keep fighting with an arm or leg off, or its jetpack smashed?

Minus a leg, it falls over (being a bipedal form). Minus an arm, it loses any weapon or tech systems installed there. Also, remember, Tau pilots are neuro-wired into their Suits, and have neural feedback based on the combat damage the machine takes. Losing a limb on the machine would be cripplingly agonizing to the pilot... just as if he or she had had their own arm or leg blown off.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers again!

The faith and SoB/Guard stuff plays quite nicely into the narrative I had planned. As for the Sisters having greater knowedge but even less tolerance of the Tau, that also works nicely.

The setting is a Shrine world the IoM is defending, so they will never concede the ground, so in that case, I assume the Tau would fight head-on.

Thanks for the clarification on battlesuit injuries. I have in my head a scene where a Guardsman is wandering among the corpses and comes across a mangled but still functioning battlesuit, so it's good to know that could work.

 Paradigm wrote:



And the Tau:

- Given their superior mobility, would the Tau engage in a pitched battle with the Imperium over an objective, or would they stick to hit-and-run attacks and surgical strikes?

- In game Tau have low leadership, in fluff do Tau run often? And if so, is there any precedent for how this is handled by their commanders or ethereals? Would they take the summary execution route as per Commissars, or simply punish them in a more formal manner, maybe like a court martial?


- What kind of damage could Battlesuits of various types take before the pilot dies or withdraws? Could an XV8 Crisis keep fighting with an arm or leg off, or its jetpack smashed?

Thanks in advance!

Tau don't fight pitched battles. Terrain is worthless. Tau win by killing their enemies first and foremost.

Tau run all the time. That's what hit-and-run warfare is. Half of it is running. What gets punished in Tau society is unnecessary losses.

Don't know too much about SoB, but I can offer some info on the Tau from what I've read, this is all from memory so hopefully it's all accurate;

And the Tau:

- Given their superior mobility, would the Tau engage in a pitched battle with the Imperium over an objective, or would they stick to hit-and-run attacks and surgical strikes?

The Tau are very unlikely to engage in a pitched battle, they do not believe in trading bodies for territory or objectives the way the IG does (the IG has the bodies to make this an effective tactic, the tau most certainly do not). For the most part they would stick to hit-and-run, guerilla tactics and surgical strikes. A sort of small investment, high return kind of attack. Their combat doctrines, "The Patient Hunter" and "The Killing Blow" are good examples of how they would fight in the fluff. They would weaken the enemy position by cutting supply lines, disrupting communications, trying to dampen their morale, making them waste resources, ammunition and men in decoy attacks or positions and only engage in a full scale attack once they are sure the enemy has been weakened enough to ensure a quick victory. Against a large enough force, or a position too fortified to attack, they will try to use whatever logistical weak points they can find to make the enemy collapse under their own weight. Taros campaign is a good example of the Tau way to fight against an enemy that outnumbers and outguns them. (Which, in the fluff, is most campaigns for the Tau).

- In game Tau have low leadership, in fluff do Tau run often? And if so, is there any precedent for how this is handled by their commanders or ethereals? Would they take the summary execution route as per Commissars, or simply punish them in a more formal manner, maybe like a court martial?

Tau have low leadership in game, I think, to represent their combat doctrine. There is no stigma or shame within the tau relating to running from a fight. In fact, they consider it reckless to fight to the death if you can retreat, regroup and come back with a better strategy. As such, there's definetely no commissar-like excecution for Tau running away from combat if the situation seemed hopeless. (hell, most times I figured it would be mandated). Can´t recall that many instances in the fluff where they just up and run without a good enough reason, or if there was any punishment for them. The only thing I can think of, for punishment, is relocation to a different hunter Cadre, a demotion, or a delay in a promotion (Tau advance through something called a Trial by Fire, which is pretty much combat experience, they are supposed to get promoted once every 4 years of active duty, though i might be wrong). Someone mentioned honor knifes, those are bonding knifes, they are carried by Tau of the same squad who perform a ritual called the Tali'serra, in which hey swear loyalty and companionship to each other until death. They are mostly ceremonial and used to represent that union (in battlesuits, they usually get painted on).

- What kind of damage could Battlesuits of various types take before the pilot dies or withdraws? Could an XV8 Crisis keep fighting with an arm or leg off, or its jetpack smashed?

The battlesuit would have no problem fighting without a jetpack, arm or leg. While the tau pilot would feel a surge of pain on their arm or leg if the battlesuit lost one, there are failsafes in place to reduce that pain and protect the pilots. (I seem to recall, in one story, about the Tau battlesuits being wired to work only for Tau, and frying a human who tried to wear one, but I'm not sure where I read it, so take it with a grain of salt.) Pilots, though, ARE wired to the battlesuit and there's actually something funny that happens called Battlesuit neurosis, in which a pilot whose battlesuit received damage, say for example a lost arm, feels ghost pains in said arm or even believes he lost the arm too.

Anyways, sorry about the long post XD

No worries about the long post, it was very helpful indeed.

I'd had in my head an opening set piece in which the Tau fought a huge engagement against the Imperials, it looks like I might have to change that to being an Imperial counter-offensive given that I want to open with a full-on massive battle scene. Shouldn't be too hard to accomodate.

That thing about the honour of brotherhood among the Tau is interesting. I want to make the Tau as 'human' as possible in this, not just the faceless bad guys, and I was going to have a Tau deserter play a role in that. Instead, I may have him do something that was tactically sound, but left his squadmates in the lurch; would that be the kind of thing that would lead to, if not military punishment, at least disdain from his fellows?

About the only thing I can think of in Tau society that would accomplish that kind of thing would be personally withdrawing yourself and abandoning your squad/army, getting disenfranchised with the Etherials, or trying to cause disharmony among the different Tau castes.

The Tau have a whole mythology built up about the "Mont'au", the time when the different Tau sub-species almost annihilated each other in warfare before the Ethereals came to stop the fighting and unify the race. Their whole society is based on the "Greater Good". Every Tau life is precious, but it is expected to be given up if it is the best thing for the Tau as a whole.

 dementedwombat wrote:
About the only thing I can think of in Tau society that would accomplish that kind of thing would be personally withdrawing yourself and abandoning your squad/army

Yeah, this is what I would be going for. The 'Greater Good' would be to stay and hold the line, but this one guy legs it and faces the consequences later. It again goes back to the idea of faith; this particular Tau loses faith in the Greater Good and runs, and has to deal with that crisis of faith in the same way as an Imperial might face a loss of faith in the Imperial Creed.

Which brings me on to my next question: What, if anything, could cause a Battle Sister to question her faith? Obviously, they're still human under all the indoctrination, and the idea is that as Chaos does its work in the later acts and things get more and more fethed up, one Sister begins to question her faith, not so much in the Emperor but in the 'saint' character that develops.

Actually something that might work would be stuff that humans would consider heroic.

A tau fire warrior breaking lines and throwing himself at an enemy bunker, with no orders and heroically clearing it out with photon grenades might end up having a good result, but maybe it wasn't the strategy the commanders had planned. Maybe it was a reckless and unecessary risk? Maybe if he got killed it would have opened the rest of his squad to fire from the enemy, or his solo advance prevented his bond mates from firing on the bunker for fear hitting him?

Reckless individuals are sometimes assigned to the Stealth suit squads or pathfinders, as they are a bit too "unorthodox", impulsive, reckless or otherwise make it hard for commanders to rely on them. Someone who seeks personal glory rather than what is best for his squad, for example, would be considered odd at best and even dangerous down the line.

 Paradigm wrote:

- Given their superior mobility, would the Tau engage in a pitched battle with the Imperium over an objective, or would they stick to hit-and-run attacks and surgical strikes?

It is worth noting that the Tau is not very good at handling situations where their opponent doesn't act as he is supposed to. Shadowtsun of all people went completely haywire when she faced the Raven Guard and the White Scars. I can totally see a generic Commander panic and mess up the Patient Hunter until he/she ends up with a traditional pitched battle, because his/her current enemy is, say, the Death Korps of Krieg.

Tau will get into pitched battles: To hit and run, first you have to hit, and sometimes you get bogged down when you try and fade again and can't break off.

A Battle Sister might question her faith over any number of factors. Her bolter jamming, her accuracy being slightly less than perfect, an overwhelming force of enemies coming out of nowhere while she was supposed to be on watch. The key to the Sisters isn't that their faith never falters - it's that they know exactly what to do when it does. Repent. Pray. Cleanse themselves. That's what the old Light of the Emperor Act of Faith represented: A momentary lapse of faith, restored by a devotional act. Back before it got morphed into 'shoot betterz please' because it was too close to ATSKNF for the Marine Fanboys' comfort.

As far as the original questions are concerned: I think the Sisters would hold themselves apart from the Guardsmen for two reasons: One, because guardsmen are impure and the Sisters must guard their souls closely, and two because allowing the Guardsmen to become too familiar with the Sisters would have a negative impact on the Sisters' ability to act as holy icons and inspirational forces.

It's a lot harder to believe someone is literally blessed by god when you have seen them scrubbing the blood from their hair and taking a shower with the rest of the normal humans.

The Acts of Faith are a strongly divided subject among Sisters fans. There are three main camps though: Those who believe that they are the literal actions of the Emperor, those who believe that Sisters are secretly all latent psykers (what?) and those who believe that they are simple the Sisters' faith and training allowing them to push themselves farther than humans normally can, much in the same fashion as the apocryphal old lady lifting a truck off her grandson.

A Sister who manifests an obvious miracle and is witnessed doing it will be flagged up as a potential living saint. Doesn't have to be surviving a plasma shot to the face - that pretty much doesn't happen - or coming back to live afterwards (which has: Saint Sabbat, Saint Celestine) - it could be something like healing the wounded by a laying on of hands, or purifying water, or Sherlocking a corrupt priest.

All useful stuff, thanks!

I like the idea of the Tau being heroic to the point of being self-centred, and if that sets up him being put in a recon/stealth unit then that could be good, allowing him to get a look at humans out of combat, again there's some character work that can come through there.

All the stuff on Sisters is helpful as well, they were only going to be secondary and tertiary characters at first but now I see them playing as big a role as the Guard in this tale.

1. Tau: You want a vivid, funny, and canon-non-compliant take on "humanized" Tau, you must read Boss Fearless's Powerlifting & Plasma (if you haven't already).

2. Sisters: are awesome, and I'm glad you (and others here) enjoy my Ginevra stories. Be mindful that I portray Sisters as more down-to-earth, flawed, and by the way foul-mouthed then anything in official fluff!

But I consider all official material to be some form of in-universe propaganda. Indeed the Cain novels actually have an in-universe editor who was romantically involved with the protagonist -- which is my headcanon explanation for why Cain in his first-person "memoirs" keeps talking about what a coward he is, but then acts consistently heroic after the first short story: Amberly Vail edited out the really bad stuff.

Also please don't have the youngest, prettiest Sister fall in love with a Guardsman or, worse, the Tau defector.... that gets into wish fulfillment real fast.

I agree the Sisters would self-segregate as much as possible to stay pure -- not as a chastity thing, but because "you guys do everything wrong because you're not us." Canonesses and veteran Sister Superiors may have a nuanced understanding of Imperial Guard capabilities, but I think the average Sister's attitude would range from "yuck, why do you have scratchy hair all over your face, is that a disease?" to "look at those Guard boys attempt a valiant bayonet charge against that Carnifex, they're so cute."

In one of my stories, the Sisters call the Guard "PIGs" and "piggies" -- from Poor Imperial Guard (similar to the WWII term Poor Bloody Infantry). "Little Brother" is an affectionate term. And then there's the the running joke in (my version of) the Sisterhood that Sisters (BS:4) think Guard (mostly BS:3) can't hit anything they shoot at except by accident.

Girls can be mean.

With Tau, I'm not so much going for funny and light as actually more grimdark, but I want to get across that for all their clean aesthetic and relatively positive fluff, the wars they fight and the lives they live and take are just as real as the guardsmen that get so much more of the spotlight. We've all seen the story about the human wondering if killing aliens is the right thing to do, but given the setting, I think it's far more a) appropriate and b) interesting that that story is told from the PoV of an alien wondering if humans are as worthless as they are taught. If I can get the Tau character to actually be something the audience can sympathise with, then I think I'll have got that.

There won't be any inter-Sister/Tau/Guardsman romances in this, don't worry about this. Not only would that be completely fluff-breaking, but they're all too busy shooting the bejesus out of each other to both about that sort of thing. The 'relationship' between the Imperial factions will be more on an organisational level, and as things go on, at a personal character level it will be how they see each other and themselves, both as indiviuals and as races/organisations.I'll probably go for something like your version of the Sisters, but seeing as they're all full Battle Sisters and not just novices, they're basically going to be turning the disdain up to 11, which will get interesting when the Guardsmen start demanding audience with the Saint they are 'harbouring'...

When does reverence become blashpemy? When do the unwashed filth of the Guard become obstacles to the True Faith? What happens when everything you believe in comes true, and then turns out it's all a lie? We shall see!


EDIT: And it begins. Check out the prologue and opening chapter here, with plenty more to come:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/621435.page#7322390

Any feedback welcome!

- If fighting with Guard units, would they keep themselves to themselves, or fight amongst the Guardsmen? Same for non-combat situations, would they share facilities and such?

Sisters of battle do not speak even to members of other orders of sisters of battle. Only very senior ranks will conduct business with outsiders, and they will attend meetings and write correspondence, but that doesn't require sharing a mess or making small talk.

pelicaniforce wrote:

- If fighting with Guard units, would they keep themselves to themselves, or fight amongst the Guardsmen? Same for non-combat situations, would they share facilities and such?

Sisters of battle do not speak even to members of other orders of sisters of battle. Only very senior ranks will conduct business with outsiders, and they will attend meetings and write correspondence, but that doesn't require sharing a mess or making small talk.

This has more to do with the fact that once you leave Ophelia, Sisters can sometimes go their whole lives without encountering Sisters from another order than any kind of deliberate isolation.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The Acts of Faith are a strongly divided subject among Sisters fans. There are three main camps though: Those who believe that they are the literal actions of the Emperor, those who believe that Sisters are secretly all latent psykers (what?) and those who believe that they are simple the Sisters' faith and training allowing them to push themselves farther than humans normally can, much in the same fashion as the apocryphal old lady lifting a truck off her grandson.

My preferred approach is that it is either the first or the third option (obviously not the second), and it is left intentionally vague which one of them it is. Maybe they're blessed, or maybe they're just determined lunatics. Definitely confirming it either way kinda ruins some of the appeal of the concept of the faith for me.

I agree, Crim.

 Crimson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The Acts of Faith are a strongly divided subject among Sisters fans. There are three main camps though: Those who believe that they are the literal actions of the Emperor, those who believe that Sisters are secretly all latent psykers (what?) and those who believe that they are simple the Sisters' faith and training allowing them to push themselves farther than humans normally can, much in the same fashion as the apocryphal old lady lifting a truck off her grandson.

My preferred approach is that it is either the first or the third option (obviously not the second), and it is left intentionally vague which one of them it is. Maybe they're blessed, or maybe they're just determined lunatics. Definitely confirming it either way kinda ruins some of the appeal of the concept of the faith for me.

Agreed - I go with 1 myself - they are the Emperors Chosen - what the Emperor they worship actually is is adifferent question..............

 Paradigm wrote:


I'd had in my head an opening set piece in which the Tau fought a huge engagement against the Imperials, it looks like I might have to change that to being an Imperial counter-offensive given that I want to open with a full-on massive battle scene. Shouldn't be too hard to accomodate.

Well... there is one situation where the Tau would be a little more willing to hit the Imperials hard and truly en masse.

In several places, it has been noted that Tau have had a lot of success fighting Imperials at night. Since Tau have blacksun filters, and the IG has no version for its own, the Tau can pretty much hit at will against the Guard. SMs in fluff handle it better, but if a Tau commander was going to commit to a large battle, it'd be at night, when most Imperial gear is next to useless.

The Taros campaign is a good example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
With Tau, I'm not so much going for funny and light as actually more grimdark, but I want to get across that for all their clean aesthetic and relatively positive fluff, the wars they fight and the lives they live and take are just as real as the guardsmen that get so much more of the spotlight. We've all seen the story about the human wondering if killing aliens is the right thing to do, but given the setting, I think it's far more a) appropriate and b) interesting that that story is told from the PoV of an alien wondering if humans are as worthless as they are taught. If I can get the Tau character to actually be something the audience can sympathise with, then I think I'll have got that.

Any feedback welcome!

The problem with that is the Tau have no problem at all taking in human worlds that don't resist. On the other hand, Tau have no problem with Gue'vesa fighting alongside them- perhaps with pulse rifles and battle armor instead of flashlights and cardboard boxes.

If you're wanting a story about humans and Tau bonding, there's some good stuff over at the Advanced Tau Tactica. Dunno if I'm allowed to post links to other forums, though.

At any rate, it's not a big leap for the Tau. After all, their mindset very much includes the idea of aliens fighting for the Greater Good.

 Paradigm wrote:
With Tau, I'm not so much going for funny and light as actually more grimdark, but I want to get across that for all their clean aesthetic and relatively positive fluff, the wars they fight and the lives they live and take are just as real as the guardsmen that get so much more of the spotlight. We've all seen the story about the human wondering if killing aliens is the right thing to do, but given the setting, I think it's far more a) appropriate and b) interesting that that story is told from the PoV of an alien wondering if humans are as worthless as they are taught. If I can get the Tau character to actually be something the audience can sympathise with, then I think I'll have got that.

I think the Tau wouldn't fall for the mistake of misunderstanding their opponent just because "muh propaganda". A Tau Fire Warrior is probably fully aware that he is barely a match for an average human in terms of physique, and combined with humanity's primal, violence-based psychology, the whole race is a massive powder keg, ready to blow, right into the nearest Fire Warrior's face. The humans are pretty much the same to the Tau as the Orks are to the humans: somewhat similar just with the savagery-o-meter turned up to eleven.

Maybe a Fire Warrior would fear humans, in the same manner as the weakling nerd fears the school bully. Like, they know that it isn't right, but they can't argue with the tough reality. For example, a Fire Warrior witnessing a whole FW Team getting lynched by desperate human refugees then opening fire on the mob because - even against the direct orders of his superiors - he wants to live would be a good scene. Or a part where a Fire Warrior loses all his shiny equipment, and he has to fend off almighty human warriors like a starving mother gathering food for her children (in her eyes food = Tau meat) or a crippled and/or aging PDF trooper.

 Paradigm wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
About the only thing I can think of in Tau society that would accomplish that kind of thing would be personally withdrawing yourself and abandoning your squad/army

Which brings me on to my next question: What, if anything, could cause a Battle Sister to question her faith? Obviously, they're still human under all the indoctrination, and the idea is that as Chaos does its work in the later acts and things get more and more fethed up, one Sister begins to question her faith, not so much in the Emperor but in the 'saint' character that develops.

Perhaps it's everyone else's lack of faith that shakes her. She sees that she's fighting for something no one else seems to really appreciate. It's hard when no one else believes as hard as you do.

EmpNortonII wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
With Tau, I'm not so much going for funny and light as actually more grimdark, but I want to get across that for all their clean aesthetic and relatively positive fluff, the wars they fight and the lives they live and take are just as real as the guardsmen that get so much more of the spotlight. We've all seen the story about the human wondering if killing aliens is the right thing to do, but given the setting, I think it's far more a) appropriate and b) interesting that that story is told from the PoV of an alien wondering if humans are as worthless as they are taught. If I can get the Tau character to actually be something the audience can sympathise with, then I think I'll have got that.

Any feedback welcome!

The problem with that is the Tau have no problem at all taking in human worlds that don't resist. On the other hand, Tau have no problem with Gue'vesa fighting alongside them- perhaps with pulse rifles and battle armor instead of flashlights and cardboard boxes.

If you're wanting a story about humans and Tau bonding, there's some good stuff over at the Advanced Tau Tactica. Dunno if I'm allowed to post links to other forums, though.

At any rate, it's not a big leap for the Tau. After all, their mindset very much includes the idea of aliens fighting for the Greater Good.

The Gue'vesa will certainly be featuring, and be shown from both sides as well, so I'm hoping I can get in some interestingly different views there, as I imagine that, somewhat ironically, the Tau are going to hold those humans in much higher regard than the Guard or certainly the Sisters. That, though, does play into what I want to show with the Tau character; he has humans fighting by his side, but at the same time is dealing with the darker side of humanity against him, so dealing with that dichotomy will be a large part of his character arc. Later on, when the effects of Chaos show through and some of the humans get (even more) mad and dangerous, he'll be swayed much more towards hating the humans, and that again leads to conflict with the idea of the Greater Good; he knows the Gue'vesa don't have to die, but he can see what they can become and starts to fear that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate, well, you'll just have to read it!

AtoMaki wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
With Tau, I'm not so much going for funny and light as actually more grimdark, but I want to get across that for all their clean aesthetic and relatively positive fluff, the wars they fight and the lives they live and take are just as real as the guardsmen that get so much more of the spotlight. We've all seen the story about the human wondering if killing aliens is the right thing to do, but given the setting, I think it's far more a) appropriate and b) interesting that that story is told from the PoV of an alien wondering if humans are as worthless as they are taught. If I can get the Tau character to actually be something the audience can sympathise with, then I think I'll have got that.

I think the Tau wouldn't fall for the mistake of misunderstanding their opponent just because "muh propaganda". A Tau Fire Warrior is probably fully aware that he is barely a match for an average human in terms of physique, and combined with humanity's primal, violence-based psychology, the whole race is a massive powder keg, ready to blow, right into the nearest Fire Warrior's face. The humans are pretty much the same to the Tau as the Orks are to the humans: somewhat similar just with the savagery-o-meter turned up to eleven.

Maybe a Fire Warrior would fear humans, in the same manner as the weakling nerd fears the school bully. Like, they know that it isn't right, but they can't argue with the tough reality. For example, a Fire Warrior witnessing a whole FW Team getting lynched by desperate human refugees then opening fire on the mob because - even against the direct orders of his superiors - he wants to live would be a good scene. Or a part where a Fire Warrior loses all his shiny equipment, and he has to fend off almighty human warriors like a starving mother gathering food for her children (in her eyes food = Tau meat) or a crippled and/or aging PDF trooper.

As above, it won't be so much 'misunderstanding' as a change in how he sees them, and how even the humans on his side, perhaps the embodiment of the idea of a Greater Good, come to be something that is hated/feared.

Basically, I want to make the Tau character just as 'real' as the Guardsmen and Sisters, more than just a faceless antagonist and with all the same gak the 'good guys' have to deal with.

 Paradigm wrote:
We've all seen the story about the human wondering if killing aliens is the right thing to do, but given the setting, I think it's far more a) appropriate and b) interesting that that story is told from the PoV of an alien wondering if humans are as worthless as they are taught. If I can get the Tau character to actually be something the audience can sympathise with, then I think I'll have got that.

Well, for the most part the Tau would be discouraged from hating or believing humans or most other aliens are worthless. The greater good advices against hatred and prejudice of the alien (Unless the ethereal declare that particular alien race irredeemable). That kind of attitude from a Tau fire warrior might be what sets him apart from the rest. He may truly hate or fear humans, whereas the rest of his Cadre happily accepts them as auxiliaries.

It's interesting because there are hints about that kind of prejudice existing within the fire caste more-so than in others. I seem to recall that in the previous codex, Farsight Enclaves lists could not take any Auxiliaries, which might mean either that the auxiliaries simply would not follow Farsight, or maybe that he did not trust or like the aliens the Ethereals seemed to be so readily and happily trying to include in the empire. Something to understand about the Tau, which I think is what makes them obnoxious to a lot of people in the fluff, is that a lot of times they believe what they're doing is for the best not only for themselves, but for the enemy they're fighting.

With the IoM it's like "Alien scum! EXTERMINATUS!", with the Tau is like "Wow.. why? Why would you go and do that, gue'la? We believed in you. We're just trying to do what is best for you. I'm not mad just.. I'm very disappointed, and trust me, this hurts US more than it hurts YOU, but we're going to have to bombard you from orbit. No hard feelings, 'kay?"

Yeah, that's kind of the direction I'm taking it in; the Tau that comes to see humans for what they really are, largely by being in the wrong place at the wrong time and seeing them at their worst, becomes just as outcast from his comrades and more and more like the humans as he starts to fear and hate them more and more.

Now that's grimdark. I approve.