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 Paradigm wrote:
Yeah, that's kind of the direction I'm taking it in; the Tau that comes to see humans for what they really are, largely by being in the wrong place at the wrong time and seeing them at their worst, becomes just as outcast from his comrades and more and more like the humans as he starts to fear and hate them more and more.

bit like Fire Warrior - esp the novel

One thing that you might want to add in is the sheer disgust and hatred imperial forces have for those humans who have joined the Tau - its quite well done in "The Greater Good" where Cain feels discomfort and disgust at having to deal wiht them (even when she is pretty!) Even when the two forces are acting together they keep the Imperial forces and the human Facilitators - "Those who guide wisely" - Kuu'tenvos'Kla apart as Cain considers that:

"The abhorance most guardsmen felt for traitors and heretics would make it impossible to rein them in"

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Yeah, that's kind of the direction I'm taking it in; the Tau that comes to see humans for what they really are, largely by being in the wrong place at the wrong time and seeing them at their worst, becomes just as outcast from his comrades and more and more like the humans as he starts to fear and hate them more and more.

bit like Fire Warrior - esp the novel

One thing that you might want to add in is the sheer disgust and hatred imperial forces have for those humans who have joined the Tau - its quite well done in "The Greater Good" where Cain feels discomfort and disgust at having to deal wiht them (even when she is pretty!) Even when the two forces are acting together they keep the Imperial forces and the human Facilitators - "Those who guide wisely" - Kuu'tenvos'Kla apart as Cain considers that:

"The abhorance most guardsmen felt for traitors and heretics would make it impossible to rein them in"

That'll be in there for sure. There's going to be a lot on the subject of human nature and the human condition, and where the various human characters draw the line between their lost allies, former brothers-in-arms, and the allies of the enemy they are supposed to detest. For the Sisters, it's pretty cut and dried 'if you're not with us, you're against us', but for Guardsmen it's a little harder to define.

The Tau don't have an issue with assaulting a fixed position, it's holding a fixed position they don't have doctrine for.

When faced with a static defence, the Tau will engage it with space and air based artillery, night attacks using stealth battlesuits, targeted strikes on supply dumps and utilities, targeted assassinations etc. The whole purpose of which will be to weaken the defences to the point where they can be overwhelmed or a thrust made to turn the defences. You're not going to catch them running in waves at trenches though even at that point, they'll run interference on anti-tank positions with suits while mechanised forces close to engage and disembark infantry.

Static defences are known only on Tau worlds where there are feral Ork populations. Where the Tau have to hold a position or objective, they use it as bait for a Kauyon strategy, as their entire strategic doctrine is about elimination of the enemy as opposed to the taking of ground. Kill-death ratio hoors so they are.

As for Sisters of Battle and the Tau, I'm sure they get about as much information as a regular Guardsman does. They are not a law onto themselves like the Space Marines are, they are under higher echleon civilian leadership that does the thinking for them. And Church thinking on the Tau is "kill them all". Canonesses and the like probably have access to high level military intelligence on the Tauf for the obvious reasons, of course.

So, ordinary Sisters Militant = expect lots of girly awesome rage at the gall of those filthy xenos, higher ranks = urge to purge mixed with a healthy respect for the lethality of the Tau way of war.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
As for Sisters of Battle and the Tau, I'm sure they get about as much information as a regular Guardsman does. They are not a law onto themselves like the Space Marines are, they are under higher echleon civilian leadership that does the thinking for them. And Church thinking on the Tau is "kill them all". Canonesses and the like probably have access to high level military intelligence on the Tauf for the obvious reasons, of course.

So, ordinary Sisters Militant = expect lots of girly awesome rage at the gall of those filthy xenos, higher ranks = urge to purge mixed with a healthy respect for the lethality of the Tau way of war.

Actually its not that simple the Sororitas have a very high degree of independance in fact very similar to the Astartes and as seen below from the current Codex,

"The Adepta Sororitas also provides the protectors of the Ecclesiarchy’s priesthood, and they are tasked with affording them any security and military support that may be required. At the behest of the Ministorum’s priesthood, the Sisters of Battle are called upon to escort hierarchs through hostile war zones, eliminate heretical leaders or launch surgical strikes to recover long-lost relics and artefacts from enemy hands. When the Ecclesiarch himself declares a War of Faith, it is the fanatically loyal Adepta Sororitas who provide its military might, slaying the Emperor’s enemies without mercy or compassion.
Many cardinals call upon the Battle Sisters to enforce tithe requirements on their diocese, and to remind the Imperium’s populace of their duties to the Adeptus Ministorum. Consequently, the power armoured, bolter-wielding Sisters of Battle that are most strongly identified with the incontrovertible power of the Ecclesiarchy; warriors who enforce doctrine at the barrel of a gun and secure for the Ministorum those worlds that cannot be won over with words alone.
The Orders Militant also form an internal policing force for the Ecclesiarchy itself. The Battle Sisters may be dispatched to deal with a troublesome cardinal who has lost his way, either through their mere presence and the threat it implies, or in more serious cases by forcibly and permanently removing them from power"
Though she is ostensibly answerable to the Prioress of her Convent, a Canoness’ superior knowledge of battle inevitably holds sway concerning military matters.

they even have their own interstellar transport.

But I would agree that the rank and file Sisters are mostyl just taught how to kill them and want to watch for in terms of therir Heresy

That passage would seem to suggest exactly what I said: that civilian control over the Orders Militant remains very much intact. Whereas it barely exists at all for Space Marines.

No one below Canoness is going to be making any truces with Tau at any rate.

No, there's certainly not going to be any truces. In the pre-writing and planning, I'm almost accidentally playing up the Sisters as the more subtle villains of the early acts. What they hold as piety and duty, the Tau and eventually the Guardsmen come to see as uncontrolled hatred and something just a little bit dangerous. For a human, even an Imperial, their fury in battle and complete insoctrinaction would actually be pretty chilling after a while, I imagine.

In terms of the Sisters having a greater understanding of the Tau, I don't ask for the purpose of them forming any kind of bond or truce, simply because it serves the story to have the Sisters understand what they're fighting and what they have to do to win while the Guard lack that context and judge them without having all the facts.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
That passage would seem to suggest exactly what I said: that civilian control over the Orders Militant remains very much intact. Whereas it barely exists at all for Space Marines.

No one below Canoness is going to be making any truces with Tau at any rate.

Truces, no, but I would argue that the average Sister who is deployed in a warzone where they might encounter Tau will know more about Tau than the average guardsman.

The average guardsman will be told: "Tau are pathetic in close combat, and their accuracy is bad."

The average Sister, being a far more disciplined, far less numerous resource, will know that Tau armour can't protect against heavy bolters and heavy flamers, that Battlesuits are best targeted with Melta, and maybe even that white helmets indicate squad leaders. They'll also almost certainly be told that the ones in robes are high priority targets.

Yeah, I'd expect rank-and-file Sisters to have better intel briefings than their counterparts in the Guard. Some IG commanders are better about such things, but the institution as a whole seems to have a culture of
(1) being focused internally on its own very complex organization & logistics -- understandably given how hard it is to mobilize billions of troops from thousands of planets -- rather than outward on understanding the enemy ;
(2) unwilling to trust its own troops with much information about anything, especially anything that might scare them.
The Astartes and the Sororitas don't have either problem. The Sororitas do have to deal with the bureaucracy of the Ecclesiarchy, whereas Astartes are virtually autonomous, as folks have mentioned above. On the upside this means different Orders Militant don't go off the reservation following their own agendas or get into dick-measuring contests with each other the way Astartes chapters sometimes do.

Just a couple more questions on the Tau:

- How often/easily do Tau units and Gue'vesa interact out of combat? I assume they would be barracked separately, but would they basically treat each other as equals or is there more of a divide? Also, would the humans be taught to speak Tau or vice-versa, or do Tau have some/kind of translator, Star Trek style.

- What kind of non-combat personell would inhabit a typical Tau base? Obviously Earth Caste mechanics and crew, but what else?

- Anything you can tell me about less obvious facets of Tau out of combat would also be appreciated.

 Paradigm wrote:

- How often/easily do Tau units and Gue'vesa interact out of combat? I assume they would be barracked separately, but would they basically treat each other as equals or is there more of a divide? Also, would the humans be taught to speak Tau or vice-versa, or do Tau have some/kind of translator, Star Trek style.

They mostly treat each other equal, but they don't necessary have separated quarters. Units are quartered by teams (so one team share one living chamber), but within the same barracks, there could be all kinds of teams living next to each other. And they have translators for inter-racial communication.

 Paradigm wrote:

- What kind of non-combat personnel would inhabit a typical Tau base? Obviously Earth Caste mechanics and crew, but what else?

Water Caste entertainers, Air Caste courtiers/liaison officers, lower-ranked Ethereals (Aun'La - Aun'Ui), support crew for the auxiliaries, and if the camp is on a colonized world, then refugees too.

 Paradigm wrote:
- Anything you can tell me about less obvious facets of Tau out of combat would also be appreciated.

They always stay together per their battlefield team setup. So a Fire Warrior Team will do absolutely everything together even outside of combat. If a higher-ranking Tau orders a lower-ranking Tau to stay with him/her, then the lower-ranking Tau sticks to the higher-ranking one (even during R&R and other seemingly inappropriate times) until he/she is ordered to do otherwise.

1. Gue'vesa is an extremely general term for all humans in the Empire.

Troops and other humans recruited from worlds that have been under Tau rule for generations are as trusted as any Tau would be. There are several examples of this, but most prominent is the use of "facilitators", whom move among newly conquered or integrated human populations to spread the state ideology. This role is obviously a very sensitive one, and one that wouldn't be given to people whom the Tau had little faith in. Troops recruited from such worlds are generally trained and organised in the standard Tau fashion. They're Fire Warriors, but human.

By contrast, troops recruited directly from worlds recently occupied or skimmed from enemy forces are treated a lot more like cannon fodder, both out of a lack of absolute trust in the forces in question and as an idea to test the forces for loyalty in the face of adversity. They are barracked separately, and are lead/mentored by humans who have proven themselves or humans from the above group of older Tau possessions.

Humans are taught Tau through the usual means we would be familiar with, while some of the older fluff has the Tau learning very basic Gothic via something akin the hynotherapy. Unsurprising given they have mastered neural link technology. Some humans even go through surgery to modify their vocal cords to allow for better speech in Tau, as it is a very difficult language to learn for humans. Apparently humans speak with a heavy accent without such surgery. EDIT: They do have automated translators as well though. Drones usually.

2. Earth caste engineers, medical personnel, logistics specialists. Water Caste liasons and cultural specialists. Air Caste communications specialists and pilots. Lower ranking Ethereals attached to the entourage of the coalition leader, never below the rank of 'Vre. Just think of all the types of people you need to run a small town and you'll come up with Tau equivalents fairly quick, though the caste designations might be an issue if you're unfamiliar with the lore there.

3. Tidbits from non-combat fluff?

The Tau breed by committee. If you're going to have kids, a genetics committee from the Earth Caste has to sign off on it, or will assign you a mate if you're not doing your duty to increase Tau numbers or if you have some genetic traits they want to blend. Some people take this to mean the Tau have lower sex drives, but in reality, it's just an acknowledgement that even sex is for the Greater Good. Given how they can fly off the handles with rage, I'm sure there's plenty of recreational lust.

The Ethereals are not authoritarian rulers, but rather exist to develop a consensus between castes. This is generally done by a sort of ruling council for each coalition or sept, called an Aun'chiagor. The highest representative from each caste meet to discuss priorities and make decisions together. The Ethereals steer this council to the best course of action as opposed to simply handing down their opinion like an Imperial Governor would. The entire Empire has a ruling body called the Aun't'au'retha, made up of the highest ranking Ethereals and possibly caste representatives as well, of which Aun'Va is the leader.

Tau eyesight is not "bad", but different. Their eyes change focus slightly slower, but their sight extends slightly further into the ultraviolet and infrared than human sight does.

Bear in mind, some of what I've said above is quite old fluff by standards these days, but there have been no real indications that it's changed much. The newer novels imply that much hasn't changed actually, though some things like the vocal chord modifications are very new.

Thanks for the speedy answer! Sounds like there's a lot to play with there in contrast to how the scenes at the Imperial base will go!

One last question on the Gue'vesa: Are there ever mixed units of Tau and Gue'vesa, maybe with the Tau leading the newly-converted humans and taking on a sergeant/teacher role for them?

 Paradigm wrote:
Thanks for the speedy answer! Sounds like there's a lot to play with there in contrast to how the scenes at the Imperial base will go!

One last question on the Gue'vesa: Are there ever mixed units of Tau and Gue'vesa, maybe with the Tau leading the newly-converted humans and taking on a sergeant/teacher role for them?

There are mixed squads, but newly won converts generally aren't part of them. Facilitators from loyal human populations would lead/teach them if integration was the direct priority.

 Paradigm wrote:

One last question on the Gue'vesa: Are there ever mixed units of Tau and Gue'vesa, maybe with the Tau leading the newly-converted humans and taking on a sergeant/teacher role for them?

Could happen, but the other way around: a very talented and dedicated human might find himself in a Tau Fire Warrior Team as a Shas'La. They do this to teach/show the "proper ways" to the human in question. After some time, the human will be reassigned back to a Gue'vesa unit so he/she can spread what he/she has learnt during his time with the Tau.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

One last question on the Gue'vesa: Are there ever mixed units of Tau and Gue'vesa, maybe with the Tau leading the newly-converted humans and taking on a sergeant/teacher role for them?

Could happen, but the other way around: a very talented and dedicated human might find himself in a Tau Fire Warrior Team as a Shas'La. They do this to teach/show the "proper ways" to the human in question. After some time, the human will be reassigned back to a Gue'vesa unit so he/she can spread what he/she has learnt during his time with the Tau.

They do indeed do this, generally with non-bonded squads.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Thanks for the speedy answer! Sounds like there's a lot to play with there in contrast to how the scenes at the Imperial base will go!

One last question on the Gue'vesa: Are there ever mixed units of Tau and Gue'vesa, maybe with the Tau leading the newly-converted humans and taking on a sergeant/teacher role for them?

There are mixed squads, but newly won converts generally aren't part of them. Facilitators from loyal human populations would lead/teach them if integration was the direct priority.

Sounds good, so long as there is some kind of precedent for a mixed squad, I can work with the ideas I have.

Oh! And one other thing: a male and female Tau bonded by the Ta'lissera are considered married (Ta'lissera means 'marriage' too). Tau who have a dislike for Shadowsun and know about Farsight use this as kinda' like a running joke or moral story because the two have had the bonding ritual when they were Puretide's pupils, so Shadowsun is technically Farsight's wife.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Oh! And one other thing: a male and female Tau bonded by the Ta'lissera are considered married (Ta'lissera means 'marriage' too). Tau who have a dislike for Shadowsun and know about Farsight use this as kinda' like a running joke or moral story because the two have had the bonding ritual when they were Puretide's pupils, so Shadowsun is technically Farsight's wife.

Is the Ta'lissera the squad bonding ritual, or something else? And is it simply a formal/traditional thing rather than any genuine show of affection?

Ta'lissera is the squad bonding ritual. It effectively makes the bond-holders into a family of sorts, with associated sexual connetations that probably is the source of the aforementioned "Shadowsun is Farsight's wife" thing.

Squads only do it if they intend to become utterly devoted to one another. As such, it's usually only Fire Caste squads and Earth caste workgangs that undergo the ceremony.

 Paradigm wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Oh! And one other thing: a male and female Tau bonded by the Ta'lissera are considered married (Ta'lissera means 'marriage' too). Tau who have a dislike for Shadowsun and know about Farsight use this as kinda' like a running joke or moral story because the two have had the bonding ritual when they were Puretide's pupils, so Shadowsun is technically Farsight's wife.

Is the Ta'lissera the squad bonding ritual, or something else? And is it simply a formal/traditional thing rather than any genuine show of affection?

It is the squad bonding ritual. It is a formal/traditional thing and has nothing to do with affection. On the other hand, if a Tau wants to have offsprings, then the Earth Caste is going to work outwards to find a suitable partner, starting with the Tau's bonding partners if he/she has any. This is why the Shadowsun/Farsight "couple" is so funny for everyone except Shadowsun.

I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with affection, just that it isn't a romantic thing. It's a "sworn brotherhood" type deal.

So, for arguments sake, if a Fire Warrior were to do something that broke that bond, like abandoning or endangering his bonded squadmates for whatever reason, he would be more shamed for having broken that tradition than the personal betrrayal? I probablt won't find a way to work this into the novel, but I'm intrigued now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The average Sister, being a far more disciplined, far less numerous resource, will know that Tau armour can't protect against heavy bolters and heavy flamers, that Battlesuits are best targeted with Melta, and maybe even that white helmets indicate squad leaders. They'll also almost certainly be told that the ones in robes are high priority targets.

And fluff aside, I've found my Sisters to be really tough on my mate's Tau. The poor fishies don't really have THAT much AP3, their basic troops disintegrate like paper once I get in shooting distance and they often do a "tactical retreat". I never manage to get all the suits, but they don't score. Also, they try to avoid Exorcist tanks at any cost.

 Paradigm wrote:
So, for arguments sake, if a Fire Warrior were to do something that broke that bond, like abandoning or endangering his bonded squadmates for whatever reason, he would be more shamed for having broken that tradition than the personal betrrayal? I probablt won't find a way to work this into the novel, but I'm intrigued now.

Given the Japanese inspired parts of the fluff, it wouldn't surprise me if the warrior opened his guts with the bonding blade in shame of such an act. Though, it would depend on the judgment of an Ethereal, I would imagine. Abandoning your duties to your bondmates without orders would be a criminal offence as much as a moral one.

And fluff aside, I've found my Sisters to be really tough on my mate's Tau. The poor fishies don't really have THAT much AP3, their basic troops disintegrate like paper once I get in shooting distance and they often do a "tactical retreat". I never manage to get all the suits, but they don't score. Also, they try to avoid Exorcist tanks at any cost.

The Tau have plenty to deal with 3+ saves now compared to what it was like in the past, so they've actually improved against Sisters. Clunky battlesuits aren't generally the answer though, drowning the bolter bitches in markerlighted pulsefire is generally far more effective.

I think the problem is that some Tau players think their Riptide's AP1 ignores cover large blast should just wipe away everything, then panic when they find a whole army that still gets a save against it.

The Ta'lissera is a blood-sharing ritual somewhere between brotherhood and marriage... however, contrary to the Shadowsun is Farsight's Wife joke, to the best of my knowledge, it's the only kind of mutual bonding ceremony the Tau practice since they raise children via creche and mate via committee.

The purpose of marriage as we understand it is to form stable family units to raise children in, but the Tau have done away with parents raising their children so the 'nuclear family' has no meaning. I like the fact that they have the Ta'lissera instead as a team bonding ritual that takes the same social role... I just don't understand how or why anyone would want to try and use it to justify binary husband/wife relationship jokes that, sensibly speaking, would never even occur to a species who don't have a tradition of binary marriages.

It's like trying to make a paternity joke in Liverpool.

I'm late to the party but keen to help. A lot of the questions your asking are heavily featured in the second story in the Damocles anthology featuring a Gue'vesa squad leader who's squad protect a water caste diplomat visiting human colonies.

- Given their superior mobility, would the Tau engage in a pitched battle with the Imperium over an objective, or would they stick to hit-and-run attacks and surgical strikes?
Tau are known for their mont'ka or kuayon tactics.
Mont'ka is usually i hard suprise strike designed to cripple the enemy before they can react. This can range from a battlesuit alpha strike to leveling cities with orbital lasers.
Kuayon will try to draw an enemy out with bait before ambushing them with re-enforcements.
They don't frown upon 'dishonourable' tactics often having stealth teams and pathfinders in the field picking out weak points long before any other forces.

- In game Tau have low leadership, in fluff do Tau run often? And if so, is there any precedent for how this is handled by their commanders or ethereals? Would they take the summary execution route as per Commissars, or simply punish them in a more formal manner, maybe like a court martial?
Not usually, a bonded squad will choose their squad mates over themselves. and if an ethereal or an 'O or 'El of any caste is present they will work hard to protect them. If an Ethereal is present they will protect them unconditionally like bees or ants protecting a queen.

- What kind of damage could Battlesuits of various types take before the pilot dies or withdraws? Could an XV8 Crisis keep fighting with an arm or leg off, or its jetpack smashed?
In fluff a strong shot such as plasma or melta through the torso will probably kill the pilot. Most of the weapon systems are mounted on the arms and jet pack so it would be crippled and battlesuits rely on their jet packs to keep out of reach so they'd be more vulnerable to close combat as well where, although their tough, would still have a hard time.

- How often/easily do Tau units and Gue'vesa interact out of combat? I assume they would be barracked separately, but would they basically treat each other as equals or is there more of a divide? Also, would the humans be taught to speak Tau or vice-versa, or do Tau have some/kind of translator, Star Trek style.
Tau auxiliaries are usually in squads together but separate to Tau. So humans, kroot and vespid might be in the same squad but unlikely to be in the same squad as Tau. A Shas will obey order from a higher ranking gue'vesa. Humans rarely reach a rank higher than 'vre and are nearly never allowed to use battlesuits. Humans are taught to speak Tau however they need vocal surgery to make the correct sounds to speak it fluently. Tau don't need surgery to speak human. high ranking tau such as shadowsun do have translators in the battlesuits.

- What kind of non-combat personell would inhabit a typical Tau base? Obviously Earth Caste mechanics and crew, but what else?
Fire caste to fight and protect, Earth caste to maintain gear and constructs shelters etc, Water caste to deal with prisoners, Air caste will come and go dropping off troops and resources, an Ethereal if it's a really important base.

-Are there ever mixed units of Tau and Gue'vesa, maybe with the Tau leading the newly-converted humans and taking on a sergeant/teacher role for them?
As far as I know auxiliaries are deployed along side Tau, but in separate squads. Usually an already loyal auxiliary will lead the squad as this will be easier on new converts than being lead by a Tau. The squad featured in damocles is humans with one kroot and a human squad leader who protect a Por'el visiting human colonies.

-Is the Ta'lissera the squad bonding ritual, or something else? And is it simply a formal/traditional thing rather than any genuine show of affection?
Any Tau squad, even auxiliaries, can take the bonding ritual if they choose. High ranking Tau often encourage auxiliaries to take the bonding ritual as it further integrates them into the empire, however they won't be forced to accept Tau beliefs only that they are loyal. most bonded Tau forces will be closer to each other emotionally than humans are to their families.

-if a Fire Warrior were to do something that broke that bond, like abandoning or endangering his bonded squadmates for whatever reason, he would be more shamed for having broken that tradition than the personal betrrayal?
The bonding ritual is the squad equivalent of marriage. He would feel the same as anyone who abandoned or endangered their spouse would.

Hope this helps