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 Asherian Command wrote:
Teach women to stay away from certain areas. Travel in packs. Ensure that you do not go somewhere and buy a drink from a stranger. There should be more steps taken to prevent it. But we cannot punish every single man on the planet and generalize. Because that is damning a large group of people.

And the constant threat of physical abuse or rape doesn't?

There's a time and place for everything. Not wanting people to bother you while you're out doing God knows what isn't a sign of a "psycopath", as some in this thread would claim. There's plenty of times when one can be social with someone without having to force a conversation on someone. A simple "hello", "how do you do", etc. is fine, but why on earth would you assume that you're so interesting a person that any random person would like nothing more than to talk to you? If anything, that seems anti-social to me.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Based Mom chimes in.

I agree with everything in that video. She is right in regards to criminalizing speech in public places would disproportional target minorities and the poor and unsolicited speech is a first amendment issue.

She gets it all right on every angle. Thanks for exposing me to that Video blog, I gonna listen to more of their stuff.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Instead it should be thought about. Where are you most likely to get attacked or raped. If you give that out there is more likely a chance that you will be raped. Basically areas where there is more raped reported. Like school campuses, in this certain area of new york. Stay away from there. Teach women that to defend themselves. Teach women how to kick ass. Teach women to stay away from certain areas. Travel in packs. Ensure that you do not go somewhere and buy a drink from a stranger. There should be more steps taken to prevent it. But we cannot punish every single man on the planet and generalize. Because that is damning a large group of people.

1) This is just ridiculous "blame the victim" nonsense, and what people mean when they talk about "rape culture". Essentially what you're saying is "rape happens and we just have to accept it, so make sure you do everything you can to make sure you're not the one who gets raped". You're proposing a situation in which the potential victim has the biggest obligation to stop a crime, and every woman has a life full of reminder after reminder that they could be raped at any moment if they aren't careful at all times. And if they do get raped you've guaranteed that the current trend of constantly blaming the victim and asking why they didn't prevent the crime will continue. Why do you think that this is in any way a good situation?

2) You're making the incorrect assumption that most rape is the "stranger jumps out of the bushes" kind when most victims know the rapist. Staying away from "bad areas" doesn't do anything when you discover that you trusted a potential boyfriend too early and he wouldn't accept "no" as an answer. In fact, this kind assumption just helps the "she really wanted it" defense when there was no "bad area" or drugged drink involved.

(Rapists in my opinion, I think there punishment should be if they brag about it, sterilization, if they abused her, held her or him against their will, drugged her, I think sterilization is the only way to go in that case. Get them out of the genepool.)

1) You're making the mistake of assuming that rape is about making babies, not power. Sterilizing a rapist is going to do absolutely nothing to keep them from repeating their crime.

2) You're making the even worse mistake of assuming that there's some kind of "rape gene" that can be kept out of the gene pool. This is just laughably wrong, rape (like other crimes) is caused by social influence and individual decisions, not genes.

Based Mom is awesome. I agree on certain things. I.E. people think this should be human rights biggest concern. when it should be stopping the united states from using bloody drones and blowing children up. But Alas I am talking to a wall there.


Peregrine seems to forget that assuming leads to terrible debating.

Peregrine I am assuming you are smart individual, but immediately when you wrote that response. I had a long think as to why you wrote it, without I don't know... confirming that is what I meant?

You know assumption is basically as my friend puts it the death of free thought.

 Peregrine wrote:


1) This is just ridiculous "blame the victim" nonsense, and what people mean when they talk about "rape culture". Essentially what you're saying is "rape happens and we just have to accept it, so make sure you do everything you can to make sure you're not the one who gets raped". You're proposing a situation in which the potential victim has the biggest obligation to stop a crime, and every woman has a life full of reminder after reminder that they could be raped at any moment if they aren't careful at all times. And if they do get raped you've guaranteed that the current trend of constantly blaming the victim and asking why they didn't prevent the crime will continue. Why do you think that this is in any way a good situation?

Sorry. But Are you reading the post I am talking about?

Where am I blaming the victim?

Where?

I have said that you need to be careful and aware.

To be ready if it happens. If it does. RUN.

"rape happens and we just have to accept it, so make sure you do everything you can to make sure you're not the one who gets raped".

O.O
What.
What.

No. You buffon. I am suggesting preventive ideas and ways to prevent it. Rape culture does not exist. There are not peoples in the millions being raped. That is persona being pursued by many and that is the image that is being given off. I reject that.

Rape does happen. And we must do more than we are currently doing, and fitting status quo. We should ensure that it is taken more seriously. Instead of well right now.

2) You're making the incorrect assumption that most rape is the "stranger jumps out of the bushes" kind when most victims know the rapist. Staying away from "bad areas" doesn't do anything when you discover that you trusted a potential boyfriend too early and he wouldn't accept "no" as an answer. In fact, this kind assumption just helps the "she really wanted it" defense when there was no "bad area" or drugged drink involved.

For gods sakes where have I said that it is someone jumping out from the bushes. I didn't say that. Rape occurs between people who know each other. Right now that is what is happening.
Where the hell did I make that assertion? WHERE DID I SAY THAT!

You made that up. You put words into my mouth and misrepresented my opinion. That is stupid and you have no place in this argument to put words into my mouth. This is not the first time you have done this.

Do not assume. You will anger people by doing that.

The thing I have stated is that there should be studies into where this happens, not as to who do it. This is completely different. from what you are thinking. I am suggesting that maybe certain areas such as economical statuses might have more of a certain thing. That is what I am talking about. That certain areas in the country are either more prone to it like murder, like theft, happen. Rape does happen, and I am not saying it doesn't, but we need to think what type of area, has more of it. What types of areas, should you avoid. This is to say places like dorm parties. Like parties in general. To be cautious.

That is what I am saying. Being cautious and aware.

Do not immedately think I am blaming the victim. I am not. I am saying that more preventive things must be done. More thought must be put into it. Because right now most people have no bloody idea about it.

1) You're making the mistake of assuming that rape is about making babies, not power. Sterilizing a rapist is going to do absolutely nothing to keep them from repeating their crime.

2) You're making the even worse mistake of assuming that there's some kind of "rape gene" that can be kept out of the gene pool. This is just laughably wrong, rape (like other crimes) is caused by social influence and individual decisions, not genes.

Oh for christs sakes. DID I SAY THAT?

No. I said thats form of punishment you moron! To disencourage idiots from attempting it. That is prevention. That is what you do. Right now going to jail for rape is kind of a joke. Compared to many things. Especially if you are white.

I have only assumed one thing. You know what that is... Nothing. I don't assume. I don't work absolutes. Saying I do is wrong.

I have not said that it is hereditary in anyway way. You assumed that. That is your fault.

It will keep them away because they will be in jail, with no ability to use their tool. I suggested military service as a janitor, and to be imprisoned. To work for their rest of their life for ruining someone elses. See the problem is that I said that. And you ignored it. The thing is that the prison system of course also has to improved as well. If you are a child rapist for example. You will not survive one day in a prison. Because even murderers think they are higher than a child rapist.

So my thoughts are this punish them severely and disencourage that from happening and then to reform them completely.

They will not make the same thing happen if they have been sterilized and being monitored. So basically their lives are being watched and ensured that they can not in anyway ever procreate or have sex. Period.

And the constant threat of physical abuse or rape doesn't?

There's a time and place for everything. Not wanting people to bother you while you're out doing God knows what isn't a sign of a "psycopath", as some in this thread would claim. There's plenty of times when one can be social with someone without having to force a conversation on someone. A simple "hello", "how do you do", etc. is fine, but why on earth would you assume that you're so interesting a person that any random person would like nothing more than to talk to you? If anything, that seems anti-social to me.

I encourage talk and discussion and communication between all peoples. But I think we can tell one someone is off their game, and we actively avoid them. Sometimes it is fine to do so. But that is up to the person to decide.

The entire thing is subjective. So There will be certain cases where it is fine. Like I know a few people who have been raped. I asked them the following. "Did you watch your drink?"
The response is usually on the lines. "No a guy gave it to me."
My response to that is. "Always watch. Your bloody drink. Get your own drink. Make them drink it. You know as a test."

If they refuse to drink it. Chances are they spiked it. Then by all means throw it at them and embrass them infront of everyone. not only would that anger them, but the entire crowd would turn on them faster than a dog seeing food at the end of the day.

Ehhhh. I don't know.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Where am I blaming the victim?

Where you write a long list of all the ways in which the solution to rape is to make potential victims prevent the crime.

No. You buffon. I am suggesting preventive ideas and ways to prevent it.

You're suggesting ways to prevent it that depend on the assumption that there are just places/times/whatever when rape happens, and all you can do is avoid being there. For example, why should we just take it for granted that women going out alone are taking a serious risk and tell them to avoid doing that?

Rape culture does not exist. There are not peoples in the millions being raped.

Sigh. Did you even read the part where I said that "rape is always out there lurking and waiting for you to make a mistake and become vulnerable" is what people mean when they talk about rape culture? It isn't about some kind of assumption that every woman will be or has been raped, it's about how, as a woman, you're expected to be constantly aware of the possibility that you could be raped and make rape avoidance a part of your life.

For gods sakes where have I said that it is someone jumping out from the bushes.

You didn't say it explicitly, you just implied it based on the "solutions" you offered. Avoiding "bad areas" is only relevant advice if you assume that the most common rape danger is the "stranger jumping out of the bushes" kind where you just have to watch out for potential rapists and avoid them. It is useless advice if the most common rape danger is from someone you know and trust already.

No. I said thats form of punishment you moron! To disencourage idiots from attempting it. That is prevention. That is what you do. Right now going to jail for rape is kind of a joke. Compared to many things. Especially if you are white.

Err, lol? Going to prison is NOT a joke. The issue with light sentences for rape isn't that prison is a nice happy place where people aren't punished sufficiently it's that the length of a prison sentence for rape is often laughably short compared to other crimes, and that's assuming the rapist is even convicted instead of found innocent based on some ridiculous "it wasn't really rape, I just got her really drunk" or "she had sex with other men so of course she said yes to me" argument. The solution is to give appropriate prison sentences and stop accepting such pathetic excuses, not to make prison even more of a sadistic hell than it already is.

And if you want to accuse me of making assumptions then yes, I made an assumption. I assumed the best possible interpretation of your argument for sterilization as punishment: that sterilization directly prevents a crime somehow. If it's being used as nothing more than a horrible consequence to threaten people with then congratulations, you've gone back to the days when cutting off body parts was considered an acceptable punishment. I think it should be obvious why that is not something we should have again.

It will keep them away because they will be in jail, with no ability to use their tool.

You do realize that a lot of rape happens in prison, right?

They will not make the same thing happen if they have been sterilized and being monitored. So basically their lives are being watched and ensured that they can not in anyway ever procreate or have sex.

Sigh. You do realize that sterilization doesn't prevent a person from having sex, right? It just makes it so that you can't make babies as a result of having sex. Also, did you know that a lot of rape happens with hands/objects/etc and even a "cut everything off" approach to sterilization isn't going to stop it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
The entire thing is subjective. So There will be certain cases where it is fine. Like I know a few people who have been raped. I asked them the following. "Did you watch your drink?"
The response is usually on the lines. "No a guy gave it to me."
My response to that is. "Always watch. Your bloody drink. Get your own drink. Make them drink it. You know as a test."

Wow, so your response to someone telling you that something horrible happened to them is to lecture them on how they could have prevented it by doing this "obvious" think that you thought of? Do any of these people ever talk to you again after this conversation?

 Asherian Command wrote:
They say we live a rape culture. They put out this ridicilous numbers with very little evidence and take the facts already given and inflating them to ridiculous numbers.

Some feminist (as with any group) are pants-on-head crazy. But just because those people exist and can be discredited, doesn't mean that feminism as a whole is discredited, or that it is baseless.

I think "rape-culture" is a problematic term. It is a sort of hyperbole which ends up polarizing people. Obviously a real (honest to god) rape-culture, would involve a lot more rape in a more organized and legal manner. But we do live in a culture where women are frequently objectified, and where men learn to treat women in a certain way, and women learn to be treated in a certain way. The point is we are a culture that abuses women. Subtle things like attitudes to women in the work place, talking about their looks, sexual "banter", pinching in bars -- these kind of things are commonplace. Rape is the extreme end of that abuse. While you might not agree that we live in a 'rape-culture' (I don't agree that we do) -- but I hope that as a reasonable person -- you might consider the idea that culture has a bigger part to play in rape than we might like to admit. Even though the blame falls squarely on the rapist, rapists are still to some degree a product of their culture.

I mean I am hit on all the time. I am a guy, I am cat called and I don't like it. But I know not to be hyper senstive and to strike out at people.

IF someone says hi. I say hi back, even if I don't find them attractive. Because I am not a judgmental jerk.I understand in this day and age it is actually hard to not be a white man. But the fact is that you cannot ignore the experience of one.

I don't think wanting more respect for women (or black people) needs to be viewed as an attack on white men. And when you talk about being hit on "all the time" I don't think you fully appreciate how relentless it is for some women. I've had my ass pinched in bars by girls occasionally, but I've never come home covered in bruises from it happening all night. I've never not wanted to go to a place because of it, and I've never worn denim shorts under my street clothes because I'm scared of being penetrated. But this is just a fact of life for many girls.

I do also agree that women are probably raped more then men. That is a definite fact. But saying that x percentage of y are more likely to be raped is... misinformed ... But we cannot punish every single man on the planet and generalize. Because that is damning a large group of people.

Sadly women are most likely to be raped by people they know. I know two girls who have been drugged and raped, one was also raped as child. Two members of my family who were raped. My friend's mother was raped during a burglary at her work, and I can think of four other friends who have confided in me that they were raped. Please don't tell me I'm misinformed. Asking for more respect for women is not 'punishing' men.

Err, lol? Going to prison is NOT a joke. The issue with light sentences for rape isn't that prison is a nice happy place where people aren't punished sufficiently it's that the length of a prison sentence for rape is often laughably short compared to other crimes, and that's assuming the rapist is even convicted instead of found innocent based on some ridiculous "it wasn't really rape, I just got her really drunk" or "she had sex with other men so of course she said yes to me" argument. The solution is to give appropriate prison sentences and stop accepting such pathetic excuses, not to make prison even more of a sadistic hell than it already is.

That is what I was meaning and alluding too.

You do realize that a lot of rape happens in prison, right?

Yes. It does. That is mostly because of the problem with prisons in general.

Sigh. You do realize that sterilization doesn't prevent a person from having sex, right? It just makes it so that you can't make babies as a result of having sex. Also, did you know that a lot of rape happens with hands/objects/etc and even a "cut everything off" approach to sterilization isn't going to stop it?

I didn't say how they would sterilize the person now did I

easiest way.... IS to 'cut' off the source.

Sigh. Did you even read the part where I said that "rape is always out there lurking and waiting for you to make a mistake and become vulnerable" is what people mean when they talk about rape culture? It isn't about some kind of assumption that every woman will be or has been raped, it's about how, as a woman, you're expected to be constantly aware of the possibility that you could be raped and make rape avoidance a part of your life.

I would like you to look at the definition

Its an assumption. So it is wrong.

Any assumption is based on human fact. Which is wrong. It is only factorable if it is proven by science and peer review. All cases associated with the study of rape culture have been inconclusive. There is no conclusive evidence that says we are living in a rape society. Any one that says differently is because of that issue.

Rape does exist. But we can take measurable ways to deflate or stop it from happening. That is not victim blaming. That is preventing Victims from occuring. It will prevent victims. And hopefully decrease the numbers.

There is no large amount of precentage of people getting raped. This is only because of number of growing amounts of people and population so you will see numbers rise. But rape has been going down. It is not as common as it used to be.

Rape culture is a concept that examines a culture in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]

Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]

Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]

Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]

Wikipedia delves into it but then forgets to actually talk about it. It is widely debated. And only supported by one side of thinking. It basically states it exists. When it doesn't. Rape does exist. And to say it doesn't is stupid. Rape culture, meaning that rape is trivalized which I am not doing. Is not there. It is a fallacy. As most schools like to paint. It is not entirely one sided.

It is trivalizing if you say it only happens to women.

You didn't say it explicitly, you just implied it based on the "solutions" you offered. Avoiding "bad areas" is only relevant advice if you assume that the most common rape danger is the "stranger jumping out of the bushes" kind where you just have to watch out for potential rapists and avoid them. It is useless advice if the most common rape danger is from someone you know and trust already.

Because I assumed people were smart enough to know that is not what I was saying.

Bad areas include social areas. Such as parties. Not parks. Most rapes happen at home, or at social gatherings. (Or the start of one, which is the most crucial part and the only time something can be done without damaging the very sensetive victim. You can intervene during, but the best time to intervene is before. You must take steps to ensure it does not happen at all. That people take care of themselves, and each other. This can only be solved through group efforts. Not individual level which has not stemmed this at all.

It is a sort of hyperbole which ends up polarizing people. Obviously a real (honest to god) rape-culture, would involve a lot more rape in a more organized and legal manner. But we do live in a culture where women are frequently objectified, and where men learn to treat women in a certain way, and women learn to be treated in a certain way. The point is we are a culture that abuses women. Subtle things like attitudes to women in the work place, talking about their looks, sexual "banter", pinching in bars -- these kind of things are commonplace. Rape is the extreme end of that abuse. While you might not agree that we live in a 'rape-culture' (I don't agree that we do) -- but I hope that as a reasonable person -- you might consider the idea that culture has a bigger part to play in rape than we might like to admit. Even though the blame falls squarely on the rapist, rapists are still to some degree a product of their culture.

Agreed. Actually that is probably better than I could say. I think it doesn't exist mostly because it is an exaggeration and inflation of our culture. We can't really blame everything on culture. We can blame it on both individuals and our culture. Not one thing is more guilty than another.

don't think wanting more respect for women (or black people) needs to be viewed as an attack on white men. And when you talk about being hit on "all the time" I don't think you fully appreciate how relentless it is for some women. I've had my ass pinched in bars by girls occasionally, but I've never come home covered in bruises from it happening all night. I've never not wanted to go to a place because of it, and I've never worn denim shorts under my street clothes because I'm scared of being penetrated. But this is just a fact of life for many girls.

You have no idea. Being sent letters, phone calls, messages, getting notes slipped, getting whistled at. Yeah. I can relate to a womans problems because It happens a lot. But I didn't really say that It happens to me more. I am not self centered. It does happen to me but not in the frequency that it would be if I were to be a woman. If I were to be a woman i would go insane.

I know of this really beautiful arab woman, like she was just absolutely gorgeous, first time she got cat called (like really horrible cat calls in the states) she put on the Hijab, and that was the end of that. She was scared shitless of cat calls. She had never experienced it, because she was from the middle east.

I think though that the problem is that most people in the states are pigs. I am sorry but this culture is probably the most filthiest culture I have ever seen. Sexualization is basically everywhere. So It would be horrible to be a girl in the states.

Sadly women are most likely to be raped by people they know. I know two girls who have been drugged and raped, one was also raped as child. Two members of my family who were raped. My friend's mother was raped during a burglary at her work, and I can think of four other friends who have confided in me that they were raped. Please don't tell me I'm misinformed. Asking for more respect for women is not 'punishing' men.

Yeah :/ It does happen. But I am saying that precentage of women have this happen to them, it only puts fear into the public if you inflate the numbers. What I am saying is that there is sometimes where they inflate the number as a scare tactic which I don't think really helps. It just makes people afraid. Afraid to talk and afraid to meet new people.

I think in general people should respect each other more than they are currently doing. As someone saved someones life while everyone looked at me, while I was yelling at people to get help while they just walked on by, I know of the uncaring people of this country and of this planet and Cringe at it.

People are taught that someone will always come to aid them. We need more people that are self reliant because right now it is just pathetic. A lot of these rapes can prevented. And it is sad that they are not.

I can point to hundreds of crimes where women are killed and raped even though there was an onlooker nearby who did nothing and just didn't want to deal with it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
easiest way.... IS to 'cut' off the source.

I guess in your world nobody is ever wrongfully convicted? I mean, what are you going to say to someone after you impose that punishment and then find out that they were innocent? "Sorry we cut off an important part of your body and destroyed your sex life, but hey, at least you'll be a warning to potential rapists"?

Any assumption is based on human fact. Which is wrong. It is only factorable if it is proven by science and peer review. All cases associated with the study of rape culture have been inconclusive. There is no conclusive evidence that says we are living in a rape society. Any one that says differently is because of that issue.

Err, lol? How exactly do you conduct studies on something that is so subjective? This isn't a physics problem where you can just run some experiments and determine a final number, you're talking about attitudes in society that can't be quantified in such a neat way.

It is widely debated.

It's debated, but that doesn't mean there's a legitimate debate. There's a debate about the age of the earth where some people think it is only 6000 years old and evolution is a satanic lie, but that doesn't make it a credible argument. If you look at the things that your wikipedia definition defines "rape culture" as including you'll find that they're all pretty indisputably accurate:

Victim blaming: yep, constantly. When it isn't open "she was asking for it by wearing that" kind of blaming it's endless talk about all the ways to avoid being raped (don't go out alone, avoid "bad areas", etc).

Sexual objectification: if you don't see this in society then you aren't even trying to pay attention.

Trivializing rape: rape jokes anyone? Or talking about how you "raped" someone when you beat them in a game?

Denial of widespread rape: yep.

Refusing to acknowledge "alternative" forms: yep. Drink too much at a party and get raped and you'll get an endless supply of people talking about how it wasn't "real" rape, it was just a case of regretting it the next day. Oh, and let's not forget the men: prison rape is "funny", and if a female teacher has sex with a male student you'll see endless comments about how lucky the kid was and how there's no way that's rape.

Bad areas include social areas. Such as parties. Not parks. Most rapes happen at home, or at social gatherings. (Or the start of one, which is the most crucial part and the only time something can be done without damaging the very sensetive victim. You can intervene during, but the best time to intervene is before. You must take steps to ensure it does not happen at all. That people take care of themselves, and each other. This can only be solved through group efforts. Not individual level which has not stemmed this at all.

Again, you're missing the point. A party is only a "bad area" if you assume that the rapist is some random stranger the victim just met at the party, and therefore the way to stop it is to avoid the rapist. Avoiding the "bad area" doesn't help at all if the rapist is someone the victim already knows and trusts. After all, what are you going to do when someone has a few drinks at a party and then leaves with their boyfriend? Follow them home and make sure the boyfriend behaves? The opportunity to avoid the rapist in that situation ended a long time ago.

I know of this really beautiful arab woman, like she was just absolutely gorgeous, first time she got cat called (like really horrible cat calls in the states) she put on the Hijab, and that was the end of that. She was scared shitless of cat calls. She had never experienced it, because she was from the middle east.

I think though that the problem is that most people in the states are pigs. I am sorry but this culture is probably the most filthiest culture I have ever seen. Sexualization is basically everywhere. So It would be horrible to be a girl in the states.

And this is exactly what people mean when they talk about "rape culture". It's just taken for granted that people are "pigs", and catcalling is just part of life. If you're lucky the only way that people will intrude sexually into your life without permission is random objectification and inappropriate comments. If you aren't lucky they'll decide their right to intrude includes more than that. And not only do you have to deal with the lesser forms of harassment you have to constantly wonder whether that guy who just made an inappropriate comment is going to be the one who doesn't take rejection well and escalates to more than just comments. Rape and worrying about rape and trying to avoid rape are just part of everyday life, and there's nothing you can do to escape it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I am saying is that there is sometimes where they inflate the number as a scare tactic which I don't think really helps. It just makes people afraid. Afraid to talk and afraid to meet new people.

I would certainly be in favour of women being less afraid, but I don't think it is feminists that are scaring women. All women will have some experience of being scared first-hand by men. Getting men to worry about this too is kind of the point.

It is really the age of over-reaction. In the Netherlands, Females would talk back and if they don't like the comment they give you the finger (or a knee )

They also should make a similar one in Japan, the would barely get 30 seconds of footage, probably from a few gaijins living in Japan.

 Smacks wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I am saying is that there is sometimes where they inflate the number as a scare tactic which I don't think really helps. It just makes people afraid. Afraid to talk and afraid to meet new people.

I would certainly be in favour of women being less afraid, but I don't think it is feminists that are scaring women. All women will have some experience of being scared first-hand by men. Getting men to worry about this too is kind of the point.

I don't specifically blame feminists I blame idiots who are given 'researchers' to 'studies' on this type of stuff. The fact is that these researchers are trained in social sciences in gender studies. They are not trained on how to do data or how to accurately comprehend it. It is also a lot of assumption and some of them believe that peer review is bull.

The major issue is that people are doing this to distrot society using it as a hammer. Does culture have problems. Yes of course it does. Culture always has issue and it is not perfect. Nor is it good. But blaming the entirety of everyone in the culture and using it as an ad homenimum attack is just unwarranted.

It is really the age of over-reaction. In the Netherlands, Females would talk back and if they don't like the comment they give you the finger (or a knee )

They also should make a similar one in Japan, the would barely get 30 seconds of footage, probably from a few gaijins living in Japan.

Agreed. I think the problem though is that japan has certain laws that are just.... interesting.... And... Well I don't like japan for its laws that it has.

 easysauce wrote:
Our culture wont protect its men, it will protect its women and even keep laws that favor women on the books, yet somehow, society is women hating as a whole.

Even for the OT, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

nkelsch wrote:
I agree with everything in that video. She is right in regards to criminalizing speech in public places would disproportional target minorities and the poor and unsolicited speech is a first amendment issue.

Why do people keep raising this strawman? No one has suggested criminalizing anything. It was simple to show how common boorish behavior is.

nkelsch wrote:
She gets it all right on every angle. Thanks for exposing me to that Video blog, I gonna listen to more of their stuff.

That's what she does. And for this she gets labelled "anti-feminist", "conservative" (despite being a registered Democrat) and, in one case, from a real champion of social justice (Matt Lees), "scum".

The worst kinds of laws on earth are the ones passed to make people "feel" a certain way.

 Ouze wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Our culture wont protect its men, it will protect its women and even keep laws that favor women on the books, yet somehow, society is women hating as a whole.

Even for the OT, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

nkelsch wrote:
I agree with everything in that video. She is right in regards to criminalizing speech in public places would disproportional target minorities and the poor and unsolicited speech is a first amendment issue.

Why do people keep raising this strawman? No one has suggested criminalizing anything. It was simple to show how common boorish behavior is.

what do you expect to be done when they organization who created video calls for 911 training and incident reporting if they don't expect reports of harassment to be responded to by law enforcement? If they are expecting free speech to be classified harassment and be reported to police and responded to police, they are expecting enforcement of a law which means criminalization. And since they consider everything in that video, you have some issues... Like criminalizing or at least erroneous reporting of non harassment speech, liberal enforcement and interpretation of current harassment laws, and in general, another way for police to blanket harassment of the poor and minorities since that is where there is a higher rate of "street harassment".

The hollaback a position is the harassment is already criminal and needs to be reported and the people arrested., so people are calling for it.... They are just not being taken seriously and the laws don't support their definitions of harassment in public places at this time.

Yep. That's exactly how these people work too. They bring up some broad overarching societal issue, exclaim that we all need to do our part to do something about it, don't make any specific suggestions, and then wait for the law makers to come up with something they can actually push as policy.

 easysauce wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

This video and this thread are about sexist harassment of women. It's irrelevant what anyone says or thinks about other topics.

Why don't you first condemn such behaviour, then ask others to condemn similar behaviour towards men?

Apparently you think that because I haven't condemned sexist harassment of men, sexist harassment of women is acceptable.

So, in a thread about a video that alleges harassment of women, any talk about how its not harassment to say hi to people isnt allowed, and is in fact *irrelevant* in your own words.


got it, dissenting opinions even when backed by facts or comparable situations where the reverse happens, are not allowed...

... .

The thread is about harassment of women.

You can't discuss harassment of women by discussing harassment of men.

You can't excuse harassment of women by pointing out that men can get harassed.

When you do this, you create the impression that you don't want to engage with the subject. Why not? Presumably because you think it is all right to harass women, or maybe you don't believe it happens, though apparently you believe that harassment of men happens and is unacceptable.

I heard many times that women do have this problem in France too. I have no idea how to help with that, though. I obviously never do that, and I do not think any of my friend does. If they do, I am not aware of that. It is pretty hard to know if complete strangers are doing it, because you do not know if it is someone greeting someone they already know or if it is unwanted attention. And even if it is, I am usually too cowardly to speak up for myself, so I would not easily speak up for random strangers…
Well, in other words, I am not sure how I can help with that.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You can't excuse harassment of women by pointing out that men can get harassed.
When you do this, you create the impression that you don't want to engage with the subject. Why not? Presumably because you think it is all right to harass women, or maybe you don't believe it happens, though apparently you believe that harassment of men happens and is unacceptable.

I think trying to identify does harassment in general happen or is it only/mainly specific to women?
It does help to address the issue if it is identified as a common part of the human condition.
To be identifying or exclaiming an "excuse" is less correct than looking for a cause of the behavior.

This was of some interest: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/harassment.html
"Harassment refers to a wide variety of behavior which can violate both civil and criminal laws. What constitutes criminal harassment varies by state, but it generally entails targeting someone else with behavior meant to alarm, annoy, torment or terrorize, and creating reasonable fear in the victim for their safety or the safety of their family."

With that definition in mind, regarding the video, what would be "proper" harassment?
The guy following for 5 odd minutes I think would meet the definition.
Many of the other interactions were poorly executed attempts at gaining attention with some sense of entitlement.

Note that it is targeting someone with the intent to bother the other person, me saying "God Bless" to you does not make me responsible for you feeling fear of an unsolicited comment from some stranger.

So, what "harassing behavior" do we stop?
What shall we make a law that is not already our there or make a stronger punishment?
Last I checked we have not stamped out rudeness or stupidity so I am not feeling a good chance for success.

All we can actively do is reward good behavior, discourage bad behavior and punish any that is contrary to law.
Being a realist, these encounters SHALL happen, be prepared to deal with them accordingly.
I am tired of you cannot "excuse this" it is "not acceptable", true, but it shall and will happen, too bad for you.
Take an active role and include others and nail people between the eyes for their lack of self control and poor manners.
Everything else is sounding more like complaining.

My wife has made some rather amusing reversals on comments and does not put up with any garbage.
I admire her wit and strength and she certainly needs no protection.
If more people act on what is "right" we would have less of these issues to point to.

The hardest part of solving any problem is getting people to agree that a problem exists at all.

@Frazz the OP. I guess that s where you start, by helping the majority of the populace to realize that there is a problem.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

This video and this thread are about sexist harassment of women. It's irrelevant what anyone says or thinks about other topics.

Why don't you first condemn such behaviour, then ask others to condemn similar behaviour towards men?

Apparently you think that because I haven't condemned sexist harassment of men, sexist harassment of women is acceptable.

So, in a thread about a video that alleges harassment of women, any talk about how its not harassment to say hi to people isnt allowed, and is in fact *irrelevant* in your own words.


got it, dissenting opinions even when backed by facts or comparable situations where the reverse happens, are not allowed...

... .

The thread is about harassment of women.

You can't discuss harassment of women by discussing harassment of men.

You can't excuse harassment of women by pointing out that men can get harassed.

When you do this, you create the impression that you don't want to engage with the subject. Why not? Presumably because you think it is all right to harass women, or maybe you don't believe it happens, though apparently you believe that harassment of men happens and is unacceptable.

IM not excusing any harassment of women by saying men get harassed, stop making things up, seriously, show some class and address my *actual argument* instead of the one you are making up despite being told multiple times.

Stop making such inflammatory, and insulting statements like suggesting I think harassing women is ok, or doesn't happen.

That is a low class shaming tactic to use to suggest that only a harassment supporter could claim saying HI isnt harassment.

I could simply state you think its ok to harass men, after its easier then actually reading and responding to what you actually wrote.


Im saying, that[u] IT IS NOT HARASSMENT TO SAY HI TO PEOPLE. [/u] if you are not getting upset about people saying hi to men, because saying hi to men isnt harassment, then dont get upset when people say hi to women, because it TOO is not harassment.

this thread is about a video that claims it is entirely composed of harassing cat calls,

saying Hello is not harassing, out of 10 hours, 10 minutes of video came out, out of that 10 minutes, almost all of the so called harassment, WASNT!

its disingenuous to take things that are not harassment, and call them such.


again, saying HI is not harassment, harassment of women exists, but saying HI or politely approaching a woman is not harassment.

multiple times its been stated, "your not a woman you cannot understand" , despite the reverse being a sexist statement, and despite PLENTY of women also coming out as stating that saying hi is not harassment.


Actual harassment is wrong, but lowering the bar to the point where you are labeling those who say hi to people as harassers is incorrect factually, silly, and takes away from *actual* harassment.

When you lump *actual* harassment with imagined harassment, it gives the impression that you are trying to speak for *all* women, some of whom like the attention, most of whom do *not* see saying hi as harrassment, and it gives the impression you perceive natural male actions role fulfilling as evil, wrong, and harassing, when its not.

 easysauce wrote:
When you lump *actual* harassment with imagined harassment, it gives the impression that you are trying to speak for *all* women, some of whom like the attention, most of whom do *not* see saying hi as harrassment, and it gives the impression you perceive natural male actions role fulfilling as evil, wrong, and harassing, when its not.

This.
Quoting myself earlier:

Note that it is targeting someone with the intent to bother the other person, me saying "God Bless" to you does not make me responsible for you feeling fear of an unsolicited comment from some stranger.

It has boiled down to that men should not attempt to engage in conversation with an unfamiliar woman in the street since it would be perceived as a threat.

Too bloody bad.

On the street I am a psycho magnet, if there is anyone off their meds or recently out of jail they seem to find me.
I have had strange and sometimes scary moments but a can guarantee the person did not intend me harm... which made it even more scary.
I have had to adapt, I do not have a sign on me saying "crazy person not wanted" as well as women with a sign "strange men leave me alone".

So until either group gets a clue or we wear signs, all these awkward moments will keep happening.

This video was funny and seems relevant:

^ Boom, headshot.

Asherian Command wrote:There is no large amount of precentage of people getting raped. This is only because of number of growing amounts of people and population so you will see numbers rise. But rape has been going down. It is not as common as it used to be.

Uhm.... 20% of American women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime.

That's a fething *huge* number of people!

Ah. That'd be the 1-in-5 number again, wouldn't it? Ok.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ah. That'd be the 1-in-5 number again, wouldn't it? Ok.

Quit mansplaining this!

Am I doing this right?

Sadly no. That was a woman explaining that 1-in-5 figure, so that can't be mansplaining. What that is is "internalised misogyny".

You need to learn your snazzy gender-based ad hominems. Life's easier with them (unless you live under the thumb of the heteronormative Patriarchy, in which case life is always hard).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sadly no. That was a woman explaining that 1-in-5 figure, so that can't be mansplaining. What that is is "internalised misogyny".

You need to learn your snazzy gender-based ad hominems. Life's easier with them (unless you live under the thumb of the heteronormative Patriarchy, in which case life is always hard).

Guess I live under that thumb... 'cuz

This seems relevant.