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gungo wrote:

Back in the day every krieg list use to have multiple engineers with the drill transport. It's still just as fluffy and NO ONE plays it because it's no longer broken regarding the rules.

People aren't playing the Hades Drill because it's not broken. People aren't using it because it's one of the worst transports in the game. You deepstrike it, it gets one chance to melta-something off the table (if you hit another unit) which most likely won't outright destroy whatever it's hitting, and then it takes a mishap test on -2, which means that it has a 50% of destroying itself and every attached Combat Engineer unit. Make it a bit more like the Mawloc or simply state that it moves other unit out of the way and I'd play it.

OnT: I love playing against most Forgeworld units, as I personally collect DKoK and Minotaurs. However, as the former army is quite bad, I tend to find that I have to rely in some "broken" units in order to be competitive with my friends. But then again, if I find a list that wins 75%+ of all games I stop playing it, so I guess I can't be counted as a WAAC-player.

 Peregrine wrote:

AlexRae wrote:
AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover

Kind of like the "main GW" units with those weapons?

Yeh I disagree with that in general in a sub 2000pt game. Units which are designed to remove large swathes of the enemy off the table from afar only fit in Apocalypse sized games because they speed up proceedings.

So when it comes to units in 40k that have those sort of weapons, I would generally avoid events that allow them on Super Heavy platforms.

Other than that Forgeworld is super cool. Even if it does make Eldar even more broken than they are already with their Hornets

AlexRae wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

AlexRae wrote:
AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover

Kind of like the "main GW" units with those weapons?

Yeh I disagree with that in general in a sub 2000pt game. Units which are designed to remove large swathes of the enemy off the table from afar only fit in Apocalypse sized games because they speed up proceedings.

So when it comes to units in 40k that have those sort of weapons, I would generally avoid events that allow them on Super Heavy platforms.

Other than that Forgeworld is super cool. Even if it does make Eldar even more broken than they are already with their Hornets

As disclosure, I have a bit of FW stuff as well as a couple superheavies (Lynx, etc.).

Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.

The biggest problem with FW is the hideously bad reputation that FW players have that has been all but self-inflicted. Players that ask, "Can I use a couple of FW units?" and then proceed to drop superheavies on the table and then pie plate their opponent off the table makes it so much difficult for the rest of us to use even the non-superheavy FW stuff. And telling people "l2p fething n00b" isn't helping any.

(I have three Hornets and yes they are kind of nasty. I usually don't use them all in one squadron. I don't think I have seen people spamming nine of yet. When Eldar lists start always including nine of them by default, then we have a problem.)

Wow, morgoth comes across... awkwardly.

I couldn't think of anything else to say without being insulting, but basically:

morgoth wrote:Reality! My only weakness! AAARGH!

The biggest problem with FW is the hideously bad reputation that FW players have that has been all but self-inflicted. Players that ask, "Can I use a couple of FW units?" and then proceed to drop superheavies on the table and then pie plate their opponent off the table makes it so much difficult for the rest of us to use even the non-superheavy FW stuff. And telling people "l2p fething n00b" isn't helping any.

Honest question though, how many people have actually met the player who does this rather than read about it on the internet? My experience may be largely anecdotal due to having only ever played with friends in my/their homes, and regularly at 2 GW stores but whenever someone has asked to play FW it has either been IA13, Corsairs or a token model (either a Riptide variant, or Russ Variant) which have been utterly stunning models but not overly potent in the game. The only FW Lord of War I have placed is my Malcador Defender for my Renegades (anyone who hasnt seen the rules, its a demolisher cannon and a tonne of heavy bolters, mounted on worse armour than a Russ, fueled by a variable distance engine), which again has drawn a ridiculous amount of enemy fire but largely its cutting down swathes of incredibly cheap infantry with its heavy bolters and rarely makes back its cost.

The malcador is awesome... Rules are meh, but the tank is cool.

That's something people miss with the fw stuff in debates like this, the models are cool and to hell with the rules, the sicarion is arguably what all marine tanks should be anyway, fast and medium toughness.

And the cardinal rule : Bring the rules for anything you plan on fielding...before actually using it..allow your opponent a bit of time to read it and get a idea what it is and does.

Don't use memory or crib notes..have the most up to date stats and use those, the same as for any other codex unit in the game..alot..and I mean alot of this misunderstanding is due to players not using the actual stats and limitations of FW units, and getting things wrong..then it becomes a blown out of proportion issue..with people making all kinds of claims.

I love FW stuff..i love their books and lists, and actively support the use..but used correctly and by the rules..just like anything else in the game.

I dont really care one way or the other. The models look cool and I enjoy seeing the painted up just as much as I do normal models.

If they are actual FW units instead of FW models representing "normal" units, I would hope that the actual rules are brought along (not hand written ones but the REAL rules so I can know exactly what they can/cant do/ stats/ect before the game starts.

 Formosa wrote:
The malcador is awesome... Rules are meh, but the tank is cool.

That's something people miss with the fw stuff in debates like this, the models are cool and to hell with the rules, the sicarion is arguably what all marine tanks should be anyway, fast and medium toughness.

Definately this, the Malcador Defender model is beautiful, its a clearly outdated tank that the imperium has just about got enough working knowledge of the get it going but never reliably, and for renegades it is a fantastic concept of many guns firing (albeit poorly) from a relic that likely belongs more in a museum than on the field of battle.

I have just picked up the newest Forgeworld riptide, which yeah is good in ruleswise but it is a fantastic looking model, posed in a running stance he stands far taller than either of my other riptides and just looks fantastic, well worth the money paid and I'm really going to enjoy painting it up. Which is why i have forgeworld units, not because they're OP but because they are almost always centrepieces in my army, the best looking models amongst those in my collection are forgeworld models (Solar Auxilia as carapace vets, Malcador Defender, Hazard Suit as iridium armoured Commander, Big old Riptide)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, morgoth comes across... awkwardly.

I couldn't think of anything else to say without being insulting, but basically:

morgoth wrote:Reality! My only weakness! AAARGH!

I'd like to think he's trolling for his sake, but I'm not really sure he is...

zend0g wrote:

Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.

The Typhon has more issues with dying to anything that can efficiently disable a Land Raider than anything else. 350pts, 14 all round, and six hull points means it's on average eight melta shots to kill it, potentially as few as two if you're lucky.

That or charge it with ten models with Haywire and it's dead.

(If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)

The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)

On the subject of Morgoth, I don't know if I'm stepping into an ages-old feud or am going to get shot down for defending someone who has said/done horrible things on other threads but speaking as someone who's had very little contact with him outside this thread it sounds like he's taking a lot more flak than is warranted for making a legitimate point badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TWilkins wrote:
The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)

Some armies are shafted/need Allies to get Forge World to work properly. On the bright side the rules as to who can take what superheavy are really, really fuzzy so there's theoretically no reason you couldn't take an evil Revenant or make a big Raider and call it a Lynx. Or run a Sororitas Baneblade.

 TWilkins wrote:
The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)

The lack of variety for certain armies is a shame, not just for sake of rules variety but for lack of modelling, DE definately need their fair share of FW lovin sometime soon.

The Tau Commander... this could potentially be as much as issue with Special Characters as it is with Forgeworld (don't get me wrong, characters like Sevrin Loth are a beast), in specific reference to R'alai he is a field combination of battlesuit and vindicare like ammo but comes like to 200ish points, definately potent but can never join units and is only packing a 3+ (4++ upping to 3++ within 12 inches) and at T5 he can still be ID'd

 AnomanderRake wrote:
On the subject of Morgoth, I don't know if I'm stepping into an ages-old feud or am going to get shot down for defending someone who has said/done horrible things on other threads but speaking as someone who's had very little contact with him outside this thread it sounds like he's taking a lot more flak than is warranted for making a legitimate point badly.

That happens a lot around here. Usually it stems from simply disagreeing with someone on a point that is purely opinion based. This is when "buddies" end up ganging up on the persona and harrassing them forever because its fun for them and it is allowed. Sad really.

Selection does seem to be an issue in terms of how many different armies have. I honestly neve thought of that being a reason why someone would not want to face FW units.

Before doing my own research and reading rules for some units, I had considered ALL FW to be OP. Then I found it was only some and we had issues with people bringing superheavies and titans to normal games. This BEFORE such units were mainstream. Now that they are mainstream, most players gear up for them anyway so seeing a FW one is no big deal.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)

I thought the balancing factor to that was that the Greater Brass Scorpion can't fight back against another super-heavy ?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

zend0g wrote:

Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.

The Typhon has more issues with dying to anything that can efficiently disable a Land Raider than anything else. 350pts, 14 all round, and six hull points means it's on average eight melta shots to kill it, potentially as few as two if you're lucky.

That or charge it with ten models with Haywire and it's dead.

(If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)

If you are going to spend 350 points on a model, you might as well spend the extra 20 for ceramite armor and laugh off the melta attacks. As a superheavy, it can also laugh off a lot of things that tend to cripple a Land Raider. So, that really isn't a good comparison. Not to mention a local techmarine with harness and/or using the Iron Hand chapter tactics can make it even more durable to the point of, "No, just no." Like I said, it's offense is balanced in Apoc.

I know wyches lost their haywire grenades. Swooping Hawks still have theirs, but they may lose them in their new codex. There are Scourges and you are likely to see four of them in 1850 game with Haywire Blasters but eight would be unusual unless we are talking about list tailoring or your local meta is really vehicle heavy.

I won't deny that the Brass Scorpion is nasty, but it is also 700 points. There are some superheavies that wouldn't be that bad in a regular game and there are others that are just too much with no real good dividing line between them. Unfortunately people that like to push FW tend to take the latter.

zend0g wrote:
Unfortunately people that like to push FW tend to take the latter.

Again there is this assertion that the people advocating Forgeworld "tend to" take the most ridiculous OP stuff. This has if anything been the opposite of my experience with those taking Forgeworld who often trend toward the modelling aspects of the hobbies (if you're spending 72 instead of 50 for your riptide, you ought to enjoy painting it for that money) rather than just slapping down OP stuff on the table. Whilst again my experience is annecdotal is there anything supporting the assertion that people like me (Forgeworld Enthusiasts) do, as stated, trend toward the more powerful units?

They're a very positive thing from an aesthetic point of view -being able to field a tank or squad with a different look to the original it a great thing . Can't speak as to how powerful they are relative to "mainstream" 40k units as have never played against any.

 Blacksails wrote:
The summoning was successful!

BWAHAHAHAH!

It took a few blood sacrifices but I was successful!

zend0g wrote:


(I have three Hornets and yes they are kind of nasty. I usually don't use them all in one squadron. I don't think I have seen people spamming nine of yet. When Eldar lists start always including nine of them by default, then we have a problem.)

Except fielding them in vehicle squadrons is a severe nerf to their durability, so unless it's unbound with FW included, you'll never see 9 Hornets being competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

zend0g wrote:

Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.

The Typhon has more issues with dying to anything that can efficiently disable a Land Raider than anything else. 350pts, 14 all round, and six hull points means it's on average eight melta shots to kill it, potentially as few as two if you're lucky.

That or charge it with ten models with Haywire and it's dead.

(If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)

Superheavy, armor options, 350 points, 14/14/14 and six hull points and you think it's not durable enough ???

You might want to take a look at all the other tanks in the game, Wave Serpent included. Nothing is that tough per point afaik.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
On the subject of Morgoth, I don't know if I'm stepping into an ages-old feud or am going to get shot down for defending someone who has said/done horrible things on other threads but speaking as someone who's had very little contact with him outside this thread it sounds like he's taking a lot more flak than is warranted for making a legitimate point badly.

I like to present valid opinions that go against received thoughts, that tends to create a lot of friction with people who enjoy not thinking for themselves.

In this case, as a FW lover, I thought it made sense to point out that there are very valid reasons for people to fear FW.

 TWilkins wrote:
The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)

Ralai.
I field him every game. I LOVE him. he's the definition of awesome.
And he hight impractical and nearly never actually gets his points back XD

Sorry to say mate, but if his Ralai did make up far more then his (190) points, than either he had incredible luck or got some rules wrong. (and if he has a cheater reputation, even more likely. being less known FW are actually easier to cheat with)
He has some relevant flaws, like the lack of ability to hide in a squad (he is not in fact an IC, many miss that) is the biggest, unimpressive warlord trait (PE: IC. what the hell?) makes him slightly worse as a solo HQ, and nearly everything getting hot means sometimes something will go wrong.

Yes, his firepower is divine. but his endurance is laughable.

 BoomWolf wrote:
and if he has a cheater reputation, even more likely. being less known FW are actually easier to cheat with

Hey, isn't that a good reason to be afraid of FW in general ?

Once again, I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, so therefor, you can't play the Dark Eldar. I also don't have CSM or Chaos Daemon codex, you can't play those.

morgoth wrote:


Hey, isn't that a good reason to be afraid of FW in general ?

No.

No it isn't.

You keep a confusing a reason with a good reason.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Once again, I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, so therefor, you can't play the Dark Eldar. I also don't have CSM or Chaos Daemon codex, you can't play those.

Please. Most Games Workshop stores will have store copies of each of the codexes to resolve disputes where someone doesn't have a codex. (Even though players are supposed own a copy of the codex they are using.) Do Games Workshop stores carry the FW books? I don't think so as they are not allowed to sell them in the same way they cannot sell FW miniatures. Most small independent game stores don't have the books and even if they did they would probably not let someone break the cellophane wrapping and paw through an expensive book without buying it. If you don't play with FW, you probably have not seen the FW books in depth.

As A FW player, I understand someone that has reservations about playing against FW because they have not seen the books that I am using (IA:A 2ed and IA:v2 2ed). I would let them carefully look over the entries that I am using (as I like my books to stay in good shape). Go over the units that I am using along with their pros and cons. Compare them to units that already exist. (Saying, "But Wave Serpents are much worse!" almost never helps.) Make them feel comfortable and have a fun game. You want to bring players into the FW fold, not act like a fething git and drive them away. After reflecting upon it, I am going to agree with the person that you were replying to. If you are using stuff from a book that I have not seen, I want to see it or I want the option to see it. If you want to use some of the new Chaos units in IA:v13, then just have the book with you. If you have that book on you, it is a good disincentive for you to cheat.

Speaking of cheating, what about the most common ways players cheat with FW? Since not many people have the FW books aside from the player using the FW units and even fewer people have all of the books, it can be difficult to defend against.

Edition Hopping - If you think the new price for Hornets is awesome, but it stinks that the Warp Hunters were nerfed and you remember that you still have IA:v11 where they were better and you decide to use that profile instead without telling your opponent, then you are an fething git. For some units like Tarantulas, this can be somewhat excusable as they have like three to four current set of profiles and probably a similar number of 1ed profiles with some being nice and others being terrible. (It's so tempting to use the nicer profiles.)

Forgetitis - A player want to use his FW units but left his IA books are home as he doesn't want to scuff them up. So, all you have is his chicken scratch handwriting of what his units do. Yeah. Unless you really know the units and/or trust the player, you may want to be really cautious here. Another form of forgetitis is a player conveniently forgetting errata and updates that have nerfed some of their FW units. (*shakes fist at the Sicaran update*)

Same Metrics as always

Do you have the model AND books? then we are cool

Bonus points for painted

zend0g wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Once again, I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, so therefor, you can't play the Dark Eldar. I also don't have CSM or Chaos Daemon codex, you can't play those.

Please. Most Games Workshop stores will have store copies of each of the codexes to resolve disputes where someone doesn't have a codex. (Even though players are supposed own a copy of the codex they are using.) Do Games Workshop stores carry the FW books? I don't think so as they are not allowed to sell them in the same way they cannot sell FW miniatures. Most small independent game stores don't have the books and even if they did they would probably not let someone break the cellophane wrapping and paw through an expensive book without buying it. If you don't play with FW, you probably have not seen the FW books in depth.

That's only GW stores, which usually aren't where most people play anyway (especially in the US, particularly as most only have one or two tables), and even those don't always have store copies. Independents certainly won't have store copies of codex books (much less supplements, data slates, etc) in most cases.

My buddy plays CSM. I have no Chaos. And every time he does something or says something that seems uber, he shrugs and says "noise marines", or "contemptor dread" like that explains everything. He does keep the printed out page copies nearby, but since all the copies of CSM codex are wrapped, I think we should just ban CSM from my flgs entirely.

So goes the anti-forgeworld argument.

Don't play against me with forge world. I don't want to have to learn a bunch of other s@#$y rules that don't make sense for your amusement or win at all costs attitude. Forge world is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep forge world separate from it please.