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Seriously, I don't see why this would be a big issue, IMO it would give us more accurate feel of fluff marine, and make tactical marines actually GOOD.
Hell, even if they made them 1-2pts more expensive for it, I feel like it would be worth it. What do you guys think?

FOR TACTICAL SQUADS, AND POTENTIALLY A PURCHASABLE UPGRADE FOR OTHERS.

Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

That would be crazy overpowered, IMO, especially for only 1-2 points. For one thing it would all but double the number of shot's you're firing, for all of 25-50 points difference across your whole army, since it would mean everybody is going to rapid fire at least one additional time, before charging. It would also remove all impetus to strategically place heavy weapons units. I'm just sitting here imagining the amount of devastation my Long Fangs could do if they were able to just chase vehicle around the field to keep them in range, shooting lascannons at full BS. I wouldn't object to the idea of being able to somehow purchase relentless for models, but it should be something like 10 points per model, and certainly not available for things like most chapters' neophyte scouts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

I don't know. I see lot's of Sisters players constantly pointing out that in the fluff they don't suck donkey hole, and the rules should reflect that.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I wouldn't object to the idea of being able to somehow purchase relentless for models, but it should be something like 10 points per model, and certainly not available for things like most chapters' neophyte scouts.

I think that's an excellent idea - restrict it to perhaps Veterans as one of several options that could be purchased to reflect their "elite" status. Making it one of several options that could be chosen (only one allowed) would be a step towards allowing you to represent different veterans of different chapters (or even companies).

Regular SM are not huge enough to be relentless.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
That would be crazy overpowered, IMO, especially for only 1-2 points. For one thing it would all but double the number of shot's you're firing, for all of 25-50 points difference across your whole army, since it would mean everybody is going to rapid fire at least one additional time, before charging. It would also remove all impetus to strategically place heavy weapons units. I'm just sitting here imagining the amount of devastation my Long Fangs could do if they were able to just chase vehicle around the field to keep them in range, shooting lascannons at full BS. I wouldn't object to the idea of being able to somehow purchase relentless for models, but it should be something like 10 points per model, and certainly not available for things like most chapters' neophyte scouts.

4e-book-style Veteran Skills? +3ppm and available only to Sternguard, Devastators if you're playing Imperial Fists?

Stormonu wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I wouldn't object to the idea of being able to somehow purchase relentless for models, but it should be something like 10 points per model, and certainly not available for things like most chapters' neophyte scouts.

I think that's an excellent idea - restrict it to perhaps Veterans as one of several options that could be purchased to reflect their "elite" status. Making it one of several options that could be chosen (only one allowed) would be a step towards allowing you to represent different veterans of different chapters (or even companies).

Yeah, at present, there's nothing, beyond weaponry, that really distinguishes a veteran from an initiate or neophyte. When you compare it to the drastic difference in toughness and strength between, say, different Orks, Space Marines don't seem to actually improve with experience.

OP? since when where tactical OP? way I figure it, it would give bolters some more punch, and make tacticals, well, tactical, shoot then charge. I don't see how it changes it enough to come close to warrent a 10pt cost per model. hell, a +1 attack doesn't seem to come to that much. Ofc I wouldn't give it to scouts. (oh no, 10 extra str4 ap5 bolter shots coming at you....)

I here plenty of orks, deamons, eldar(not so much this edition), and others arguing with the fluff-stat thing. I am not saying it just because, I simply said it would fit better, I proposed this because I feel it would be a good boost with little real impact other then bringing tactical marines back up to having a place in top tier marine lists.

and makes devastators much more worthwhile, as is, save longfangs, or MAYBE imperial fists, I rarely see devs these days. while I could see it costing more on devs, it still wouldn't warrant 10pts in my mind. maybe 5-7 since you can stack some decent firepower in a dev squad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

Because marine players like that want marines to be as tough as the marines in the books...but they don't want to give up being able to field ~80 marines at 1500 points should they choose.

I'd be all for rule changes like this (I play marines), but only with a significant points cost increase. At which point marine players would complain about not being able to field many models on the table, to which the simple answer would be that in the fluff, they're rarely running 1-2 companies worth of kit and manpower against what the equivalent of 1500 pts of orcs would be. Marines are the elite; you either design the models so that you can field very few of them, but with fluff-based rules, or you make them less awesome than the fluff would indicate and make it possible to take enough models that players can feel like they're running an army, rather than a tiny 30 model strike force.

Honestly, it would be awesome to design a game variant where you take IG and SM forces, but buff up the SM units and cost them so that they are points appropriate with the new rules-basically make them the elite saviours of the IG, as they are in the fluff, to take out threats the regular IG aren't designed for.

^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?

eldar have rending weapons on almost all of their infantry (representing the lore of the monofiliment ammo used), they can run AND shoot. (representing their agility and swiftness).

tau have str5 guns, ap4, 30" range. representing their advanced technology. why do marines get nothing?

 raiden wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?

eldar have rending weapons on almost all of their infantry (representing the lore of the monofiliment ammo used), they can run AND shoot. (representing there agility and swiftness).

tau have str5 guns, ap4, 30" range. representing their advanced technology. why do marines get nothing?

T4? The best infantry armour in the game? Storm Shields? Multirole squads? 24" range small arms? Sternguard? AV14? A broad selection of weapons with ranges longer than 36"? Grav weapons? Drop Pods? Sicarians? Nothing?

This is really starting to sound like a case of the grass being greener in the next guy's Codex.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?

eldar have rending weapons on almost all of their infantry (representing the lore of the monofiliment ammo used), they can run AND shoot. (representing there agility and swiftness).

tau have str5 guns, ap4, 30" range. representing their advanced technology. why do marines get nothing?

T4? The best infantry armour in the game? Storm Shields? Multirole squads? Sternguard? AV14? A broad selection of weapons with ranges longer than 36"? Drop Pods? Sicarians? Nothing?

This is really starting to sound like a case of the grass being greener in the next guy's Codex.

I was discussing basic infantry, not the entire codex, our codex in a whole is a solid mid-topmid tier, I am discussing infantry and basic troops, as represented in the weaponry I described.

T4. best armour in the game- lol. 3+ is indeed nice, but half the things in tau/eldar codex get that as well, with better weapons and options, not to mention over half the stuff fielded in even semi-competitive games today is ap3 or rending.

sternguard- yes, I admit these are probably the best unit in the SM codex bar none, they are good, but compared to the "best" of the other codices....


now moving on, tactical squads, ASM, Sternguad... none of these can take Storm shields, AV14- 250 points base, comes with 2 TLLC and a TLHB, or TL AC and 2 Hurricane bolters..

eldar- wave serpents. all I am saying.
nid-flyrant
etc.

multirole squads? please enlighten me on this multirole squad, tacticals are indeed slightly more versatile then some other infantry, but you give tau firewarriors emp grenades and watch them wreck vehicles all day, even walkers, with ease.

I will be honest, when I proposed this, I intended it to be a tactical squad only special rule, I realize I didn't state that in the original post which is my bad and I shall rectify this. However you cannot say tactical squads are extremely lackluster compared to other troops. I simply wanted to make them a little more versatile in that they could fire rapid fire/heavy (which they will have, at most, 1 of each at 150pts+) then charge, and be FLEXIBLE like they are supposed to be.

we have 2 weapons that most of our infantry models can take with range above 36, thats the ML and the LC, 15 and 20 points respectively. and both are heavy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?

eldar have rending weapons on almost all of their infantry (representing the lore of the monofiliment ammo used), they can run AND shoot. (representing there agility and swiftness).

tau have str5 guns, ap4, 30" range. representing their advanced technology. why do marines get nothing?

T4? The best infantry armour in the game? Storm Shields? Multirole squads? 24" range small arms? Sternguard? AV14? A broad selection of weapons with ranges longer than 36"? Grav weapons? Drop Pods? Sicarians? Nothing?

This is really starting to sound like a case of the grass being greener in the next guy's Codex.

Seconded. Are there some issues with fluff-to-rules translation? Sure. I get a little enraged every time I open my codex and see that Logan Grimnar, Great Wolf of the Space Wolves, High King of Fenris, a warrior who has led his chapted for nearly 5 centuries has the same strength and toughness as a lowly Blood Claw. There is definitely room for certain units to get some upgrades to reflect their skill and experience. But to say that space marines get "nothing" is just ridiculous. A 3+ armor save may not seem like much when you only play other Marines, but play against Orks and their 6+ t-shirt saves and it looks a lot better. Watch 15 IG get annihilated by a single bad Initiative role, and tell me that being immune to Sweeping Advances isn't a hell of a perk. Watch a squad of grots fail morale check after morale check right off the board, and tell me that an auto regroup is "nothing". There's a reason 60 models in a 2500 list is a large SM army. A single basic, bolt pistol and chainsword SM model is easily worth 3 of just about any other army's basic infantry.

ATSKNF- great rule, I won't argue against that. I didn't mean marines get NOTHING, I simply used a wrong word to attempt to express my thoughts on a matter. I was simply making a point that, compared to other basic infantry, especially those of the stronger armies, marines are lacking. And that giving tactical marines relentless, and possibly other marines relentless, would help make them more versatile and flexible and focus on the "good all arounder" point of there purpose. The fluff translation was a bonus that I am sorry I even damn well mentioned.

however, I greatly disagree on that single marine being worth 3 shoota boys, or 3 slugga boys, or 3 fire warriors, or 3 dire avengers, or even 3 guardsmen.

Pulse Rifles are AP5.

The fluff is too ridiculous to base a game on it. Should tone down the fluff so that Marines player don't expect their lil' dudes to be able to pull the crap they pull in the fluff.

I sure as hell don't expect my Scions to beat the crap out of Orks like they do in their codex.

 raiden wrote:
ATSKNF- great rule, I won't argue against that. I didn't mean marines get NOTHING, I simply used a wrong word to attempt to express my thoughts on a matter. I was simply making a point that, compared to other basic infantry, especially those of the stronger armies, marines are lacking. And that giving tactical marines relentless, and possibly other marines relentless, would help make them more versatile and flexible and focus on the "good all arounder" point of there purpose. The fluff translation was a bonus that I am sorry I even damn well mentioned.

however, I greatly disagree on that single marine being worth 3 shoota boys, or 3 slugga boys, or 3 fire warriors, or 3 dire avengers, or even 3 guardsmen.

I don't know that I'd even disagree all that much with the idea of letting tac squads with bolguns, meltas, and plasmas double tap and still charge. I guess my main issue is with giving them relentless. I'd rather see a separate rule, that let them rapid fire normal size weapons and still charge, but still forbade them from firing heavy weapons (at full BS, to whit) and charging. The former seems fairly fair, the latter seems overpowered, especially because it would remove a lot (but not all) of the incentive to take terminators. Plus, if you gave tac squads the ability to rapid fire and charge, but not Relentless, it would create a nice upward ability curve from neophytes and assault squads, to tac squads and veterans, to termis.

 raiden wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
<LONG>

I was discussing basic infantry, not the entire codex, our codex in a whole is a solid mid-topmid tier, I am discussing infantry and basic troops, as represented in the weaponry I described.

T4. best armour in the game- lol. 3+ is indeed nice, but half the things in tau/eldar codex get that as well, with better weapons and options, not to mention over half the stuff fielded in even semi-competitive games today is ap3 or rending.

sternguard- yes, I admit these are probably the best unit in the SM codex bar none, they are good, but compared to the "best" of the other codices....


now moving on, tactical squads, ASM, Sternguad... none of these can take Storm shields, AV14- 250 points base, comes with 2 TLLC and a TLHB, or TL AC and 2 Hurricane bolters..

eldar- wave serpents. all I am saying.
nid-flyrant
etc.

multirole squads? please enlighten me on this multirole squad, tacticals are indeed slightly more versatile then some other infantry, but you give tau firewarriors emp grenades and watch them wreck vehicles all day, even walkers, with ease.

I will be honest, when I proposed this, I intended it to be a tactical squad only special rule, I realize I didn't state that in the original post which is my bad and I shall rectify this. However you cannot say tactical squads are extremely lackluster compared to other troops. I simply wanted to make them a little more versatile in that they could fire rapid fire/heavy (which they will have, at most, 1 of each at 150pts+) then charge, and be FLEXIBLE like they are supposed to be.

we have 2 weapons that most of our infantry models can take with range above 36, thats the ML and the LC, 15 and 20 points respectively. and both are heavy.

Very well. Basic line troops. You've got T4/3+, available to...let's see...two non-Space-Marine Codexes. You're functionally immune to Ld. You can credibly engage every target in the game. You've got access to Drop Pods (a top three Dedicated Transport, don't let anyone tell you otherwise). Your small arms are solidly mid-tier, they don't have the short-range punch of shuriken catapults or the all-round power of pulse rifles but you've got BS4 native (which the Fire Warrior doesn't), 24" range (which the Guardian doesn't), and, again, T4/3+ (which neither have). You've got straight-up the best upgrade guns out there.

Space Marines in general, and Tactical Marines in particular, are not here to outperform specialists like Guardians and Fire Warriors at their own game. 'Jack of all trades' does not mean 'better than everyone at everything'. Space Marines figure out what the other guy's not well-equipped to counter and do that. You may think Guardians are vastly cooler than your Marines could ever be; what are they going to do if you Drop Pod next to them and flamer their butts off? Wave Serpents are hard-countered by assault, you've got krak grenades. Use your transports, box them in. Don't get into a sustained firefight with Fire Warriors, block their Pathfinders' line of sight to you and then run through their bullets and charge the bastards.

Tactical Marines are not a straightforward point-and-click unit. They are also not a lackluster unit; they are reliable, effective, versatile, and depending on their equipment and transport can fight pretty much anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Pulse Rifles are AP5.

The fluff is too ridiculous to base a game on it. Should tone down the fluff so that Marines player don't expect their lil' dudes to be able to pull the crap they pull in the fluff.

I sure as hell don't expect my Scions to beat the crap out of Orks like they do in their codex.

I just want Striking Scorpions that you can't draw line of sight to. They're supposed to be ninjas.

I'm sorry for not being able to catch a skimmer vehicle... or, you know, get into CC with tau with supporting fire.

tac marines are reliably lackluster, this comes from countless games with using them several different ways, and watching them be used several different ways. The best way to use them I have found is infantry killers, and they don't excel at that. I apologize if I pissed you off but I haven't asked for much. Ask any space marine player and they will tell you the same, tactical squads rarely feel like more than anything but a tax. Why do you think so many people go out of there way to take as few as possible? 80% of the time? that drop pod of flamers? oh, guess what, those squishy eldar are in a nigh unkillable (via shooting) wave serpent, who will gleefuly hop out and shurkien me to death.

our transports are 11/11/10. what about that makes you think they can survive shooting from a wave serpent to "box them in"

guardians are the equivalent of our scouts. Dire avengers are the "equivalent" of our marines, please compare the apples to apples.

guess what codex can have a heavy flamer (only flamer to eat armor 4+ other than flamestorm and bale) BA, no other SM tac squad can take heavy flamers. guess what armor dire avengers have? 4+

as someone else has posted here, I would be happy with a special rule allowing tacs + (note this excluded devs and ASM) to fire rapid fire weapons and then charge. They don't get relentless but my main Idea holds. double tap then charge. Thats really all I am asking. Let me make just a little bit better use of my tactical squads.

 raiden wrote:
I'm sorry for not being able to catch a skimmer vehicle... or, you know, get into CC with tau with supporting fire.

You have drop pods, you have table edges. You're not going to catch a Wave Serpent by walking at it waving your arms, you've got to back it into a corner. A physical corner. As in the one on the side of the table that's sharp and hurts if you walk into it suddenly.

It takes thirteen overwatching Fire Warriors to kill one Space Marine. You only have to not be outnumbered four to one once you get there.

Keep in mind while you're complaining about the OPness of Bladestorm that on average about eleven percent of shots will get it. That's two AP2 shots coming out of a full Dire Avenger squad. You can toss two AP2 shots out of a plasma gun if you're so inclined.

Or you could just use their bolt pistols to shoot before the charge, IIRC?

Take bikes as troops and enjoy the next year or so until we get that option removed?

I mean, 7 more points nets you hammer of wrath, 12" movement, a 12" turbo boost, T5, relentless, a twin linked boltgun, and the small opportunity cost of having 2 special weapons.

And no 35pt box with a 'first blood here' sign attached.

I remember when marines were like 18pts, without frag and krak grenades! No bolt pistols either!

The whole "fluff" perspective should take into account that most spess mehreen fluff is supposed to be propaganda.

I don't think more special rules is a solution anyway. The game is bloated enough as it is.

The lack of "superhuman feel" with current marines comes, in my opinion, from small details in the rules design department. In example, everybody moves the same. If a regular guardsman's movement attribute were 4'' while a marine had 5'' or even 6'', the "moves so fast he looks blurry" fluff part would be represented rules wise.

"ATSKNF- great rule,"

Overrated. My marines die, not run. Also, much of the time, I want marines swept so I can shoot the enemy assault unit.

Marine suffer from T4 S4 W1 3+ being a joke in the face of dozens and dozens of STR 6+ shots a turn. They also suffer from having relatively poor offense to fire back with and so they fall further and further behind each turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I'm sorry for not being able to catch a skimmer vehicle... or, you know, get into CC with tau with supporting fire.

You have drop pods, you have table edges. You're not going to catch a Wave Serpent by walking at it waving your arms, you've got to back it into a corner. A physical corner. As in the one on the side of the table that's sharp and hurts if you walk into it suddenly.

It takes thirteen overwatching Fire Warriors to kill one Space Marine. You only have to not be outnumbered four to one once you get there.

Keep in mind while you're complaining about the OPness of Bladestorm that on average about eleven percent of shots will get it. That's two AP2 shots coming out of a full Dire Avenger squad. You can toss two AP2 shots out of a plasma gun if you're so inclined.

Not every opponent is Eldar. Drop pods against Orks and Nids is a death sentence. The "drop pod" argument as to why Eldar aren't broken cheese is getting stale.

Martel732 wrote:
"ATSKNF- great rule,"

Overrated. My marines die, not run. Also, much of the time, I want marines swept so I can shoot the enemy assault unit.

Marine suffer from T4 S4 W1 3+ being a joke in the face of dozens and dozens of STR 6+ shots a turn. They also suffer from having relatively poor offense to fire back with and so they fall further and further behind each turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I'm sorry for not being able to catch a skimmer vehicle... or, you know, get into CC with tau with supporting fire.

You have drop pods, you have table edges. You're not going to catch a Wave Serpent by walking at it waving your arms, you've got to back it into a corner. A physical corner. As in the one on the side of the table that's sharp and hurts if you walk into it suddenly.

It takes thirteen overwatching Fire Warriors to kill one Space Marine. You only have to not be outnumbered four to one once you get there.

Keep in mind while you're complaining about the OPness of Bladestorm that on average about eleven percent of shots will get it. That's two AP2 shots coming out of a full Dire Avenger squad. You can toss two AP2 shots out of a plasma gun if you're so inclined.

Not every opponent is Eldar. Drop pods against Orks and Nids is a death sentence. The "drop pod" argument as to why Eldar aren't broken cheese is getting stale.

Last I checked I wasn't arguing that Eldar weren't powerful, I was arguing that Tactical Marines aren't useless.

"My generalist line infantry can't beat the specialists from the most powerful army in the game" isn't a good argument for why your troops are a waste and need to be buffed. Believe it or not there are places between "useless" and "broken".

But tac marines, for their price, are basically useless. Their ranged output is a joke, and their HTH capability on a per point basis is worse than a guardsman.

This all goes back to the bolter thread and the 3+ armor thread. As well as the cheapening of S4 T4 due to S6 shooting and the futility of assault. The things that are supposed to be scary about marines are no longer scary. What is scary are the gravstars that come along for the ride with tacs.

Martel732 wrote:
But tac marines, for their price, are basically useless. Their ranged output is a joke, and their HTH capability on a per point basis is worse than a guardsman.

This all goes back to the bolter thread and the 3+ armor thread. As well as the cheapening of S4 T4 due to S6 shooting and the futility of assault. The things that are supposed to be scary about marines are no longer scary. What is scary are the gravstars that come along for the ride with tacs.

I would love to see your math on this.

The most relevant math is S6 wounding T4 and T 3 on the same number.

Martel732 wrote:
The most relevant math is S6 wounding T4 and T 3 on the same number.

And?

What about all the weapons that aren't S6?