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It's a difficult weapon to talk about, because so many examples of the Flamberge that remain, are purely ceremonial weapons. Quite often, You'll see them with a squiggly central ridge, which isn't as strong as a straight central ridge. Most of those are going to be your ceremonial types. I have seen some examples were the "waves" are more pronounced, and the blade almost looks more like a sword breaker than it does a sword.
I actually don't think they look "silly" I think that, when properly made, they are absolutely gorgeous weapons. I'm saving up for a pair to hang on the walls of my "living room" (the floor plan calls it that, but it's where my pool table is)
Nice! It just didn't look practical to me at first.
Speaking of practical weapons - morning star flail - cool looking. Practical? Maybe on horseback, but definitely not on foot. Also, did knights use their lances in open combat, or were they used mostly used for jousting? I think they were too prone to breaking to be used as a serious combat option....unless, of course I forgot, they charged in their first wave with lances then they unsheathed their swords
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 23:24:42
Speaking of practical weapons - morning star flail - cool looking. Practical? Maybe on horseback, but definitely not on foot. Also, did knights use their lances in open combat, or were they mostly used for jousting?
I just imagine a dude with a flail accidentally nailing his steed in middle of combat. I would say better on foot.
feeder wrote: Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.
Speaking of practical weapons - morning star flail - cool looking. Practical? Maybe on horseback, but definitely not on foot. Also, did knights use their lances in open combat, or were they mostly used for jousting?
Flails CAN be practical, but they do have downsides... 1. you have to use it's momentum. 2. it's only really good use is as a "disarming weapon", which leads to 3. You still need other weapons to fight.
The lance and heavy cavalry charge was definitely an "in vogue" thing for a long long time after 1066... It largely fell out of use with the rise of gun powder, however IIRC, the "last" lance wielding cav charge was in the Franco-Prussian war? (or it was in the 1800s with Napoleon's armies... sometimes things get jumbled in my brain)
Now, as discussed earlier, certain forms of armor were definitely a "mostly for tournaments" item, such as the frogmouth helmet.
We have several times. A flamberge is just a zweihander/zwerch, the classic 'two handed sword'. The specifics are for style rather than function, the wavy blade is not practical and only accounts for the lower portion of th blade, the business ends are the same as a straight zwerch as fro a flamberge.
If you read Hans Talhoffer the plays for the zwerch do not specify type, to the contemporary practitioner they were all the same in terms of usage and classification.
I must agree they are very nice looking sword though, and a personal favourite. Exceptionallty versatile too, they were used in ways a modern observer might not expect.
This excellent and characterful video tells you a lot about ghe versatility of this fantastic weapon.
Its a fairly good long spear also.
...and a saw, a cleaver, quarterstaff and of course a slashing sword. The zwerch is a lost art.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 23:31:33
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Lances were used in combat, but they weren't the oversized ones used in jousts. They would be smaller. Metal tips and wooden shafts. The shafts would inevitably break on first contact with the enemy, the knight would then discard the lance and draw his secondary weapon. If the opportunity for multiple lance charges presented itself, Knights would have their squires carry some extras. After a battle the broken tips would be recovered to reuse the tips.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Speaking of practical weapons - morning star flail - cool looking. Practical? Maybe on horseback, but definitely not on foot. Also, did knights use their lances in open combat, or were they mostly used for jousting?
Flails CAN be practical, but they do have downsides... 1. you have to use it's momentum. 2. it's only really good use is as a "disarming weapon", which leads to 3. You still need other weapons to fight.
Posted as you were typing also, the video posted just now of exotic weapon plays includes flail plays. Enjoy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 23:37:08
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
You aint lying there.. Lol, in modern times we tend to be "surprised" that people are beaten to death by Baseball bats, or pipes... Back then the guys at the pub would be sayin, "amateurs.. pfft. I once kill't a man with me sheep shears"
And the fact that they have manuscripts and fighting styles for ANYTHING that could be held in the hand shows this. I've often been fascinated by the various Italian "duelling" styles... Rapier and dagger, or rapier and cloak, etc.
Interesting, I was thinking about this, does anyone have knightly roots, or is descended from a medieval order?
I've done extensive research of my family history, and one of my forbearers on my mother's side, fought in Maximillian I's army and was knighted after a skirmish. We even have our own coat of arms for House Grama - a golden sun on a purple field, and our motto is "We stand fast".
Sadly, at my current state I would mayhaps be equivalent to a merchant's son and might have a glimmer of hope, that I might be a squire and not go to battle with a pitchfork
I'm wondering what was the oldest sword ever used in combat again? In 1798 a Irish rebel used a 2'500 year old bronze age sword. Anyone got anything older?bronze age sword vs ISIS perhaps?
Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an!
Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an!
Sadly, at my current state I would mayhaps be equivalent to a merchant's son and might have a glimmer of hope, that I might be a squire and not go to battle with a pitchfork
You'd actually be fairly lucky even if you weren't a squire. Merchants had to fight too, but as they had money(often more than some knights) they could afford decent equipment on par with the nobility.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Artorias the Abysswalker wrote: Interesting, I was thinking about this, does anyone have knightly roots, or is descended from a medieval order?
As I've found my family arms, I KNOW there's some nebulous form of "nobility" in my lineage... But I can't make any claims like some folks do, that I'm related to some Emperor from the HRE or King Richard III or anything like that....
My family arms are: Argent, two bendlets sinister sable, of the first, a cross patee double (something unreadable) sable, bordered argent....
In layman's terms: It's a white shield with two black stripes going "sinister" (from top right to bottom left), with a "fancy" iron cross within the top stripe (its a white iron cross, with four triangles outlining a "second" cross in the middle)
From further research the "sinister" bends tend to mean either that there was a bastard in the family line (who was knighted), but in everything I've read, bastards tend to only get a single line/mark. The other use was for a knight who hadn't been granted arms yet who showed himself particularly awesome in a defensive situation, and in this case, multiple "bends" or multiple marks tends to mean that a knight in this family, or of that arms, had made many defensive actions.
Sadly, at my current state I would mayhaps be equivalent to a merchant's son and might have a glimmer of hope, that I might be a squire and not go to battle with a pitchfork
You'd actually be fairly lucky even if you weren't a squire. Merchants had to fight too, but as they had money(often more than some knights) they could afford decent equipment on par with the nobility.
Indeed... It was part of a knight's "duty" to arm and armor himself. If he couldn't afford to, he would enter the service of his liege and become a "house knight"... In this way he went into battle wearing his liege's arms until such a time as he could afford his own, then he was allowed his own "decorations"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 23:59:11
Then I Shan't despair. Hmm, how would you equip yourselves for battle, given your respective place in the medieval world?
For me I think:
Bastard Sword, Mace, Dagger
Chainmail overalls, plate for arms and legs (vambraces, gauntlets, greaves, etc), padded coif +Sugarloaf greathelm
Surcoat , displaying family heraldry, of course
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
As a merchant, I would probably have the following, assuming late/mid middle ages.
Weapons
1) Polearm of some kind as my primary weapon
2) Warhammer, axe, or pick as a backup weapon(swords are expensive)
3) Crossbow
Armor
Chainmail leggings and sleeves, padded doublet, cheap breastplate, metal greaves, and a simple metal helm. Along with a shield, likely reinforced hardwood.
If I'm richer than average I might be able to afford a horse and better armor. And after any battles I've got my eye open for any better equipment off the dead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 00:10:55
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Artorias the Abysswalker wrote: Then I Shan't despair. Hmm, how would you equip yourselves for battle, given your respective place in the medieval world?
Depending on timeframe... and given that my "family line" comes from areas where Landsknechts were typically from, I'd probably have:
Half-plate mail
Zweihander or Pike
a silly hat,
codpiece (it's seriously important!)
like this:
Spoiler:
Although, I would love to be kitted out like this:
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Ahh, full Gothic plate. Most badass looking armor ever.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Speaking of practical weapons - morning star flail - cool looking. Practical? Maybe on horseback, but definitely not on foot. Also, did knights use their lances in open combat, or were they mostly used for jousting?
Flails CAN be practical, but they do have downsides... 1. you have to use it's momentum. 2. it's only really good use is as a "disarming weapon", which leads to 3. You still need other weapons to fight.
Historically, the main advantage of the flail was its easy availability. Every medieval grain farmer would have had one and known how to use it. Flails were thus mostly a weapon for peasants, rather than knights. Knights used 'noble' weapons, mostly swords, maces and lances.
The lance was a knight's most important weapon, because the main use of cavalry is the charge. The lance is extremely deadly in a charge. After the charge, the lance would be dropped in favour for a close combat weapon.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The lance and heavy cavalry charge was definitely an "in vogue" thing for a long long time after 1066... It largely fell out of use with the rise of gun powder, however IIRC, the "last" lance wielding cav charge was in the Franco-Prussian war? (or it was in the 1800s with Napoleon's armies... sometimes things get jumbled in my brain.
The Polish cavalry used lances in WW2, and achieved a number of notable successes with it. The very last cavalry charge using lances was during the battle of Schönfeld on 1 March 1945. Cavalry existed alongside gun powder weapons for a very long time, it is only with machine guns that the cavalry charge became obsolete.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 00:17:12
Iron_Captain wrote: Historically, the main advantage of the flail was its easy availability. Every medieval grain farmer would have had one and known how to use it. Flails were thus mostly a weapon for peasants, rather than knights. Knights used 'noble' weapons, mostly swords, maces and lances.
The lance was a knight's most important weapon, because the main use of cavalry is the charge. The lance is extremely deadly in a charge. After the charge, the lance would be dropped in favour for a close combat weapon.
One point of contention for me there IC... In all my reading, the ONLY "noble" weapons were the lance and the sword/shield. Maces started off as basically clubs found through necessity during fighting. Eventually, enough guys had experienced the weapons and so they began to hire smiths to make "better" and fancier maces. It's kind of the same thing with hammers. Often times, the peasants would be armed with a bow (either a crossbow or "regular" type bow, depending on locale) and whatever else they were carrying. And it was from the peasant fighters that the hammers and maces came until, again, the nobility began to have them made.
I think it goes without saying that "chivalry" goes out the window when your own survival depends on it
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The lance and heavy cavalry charge was definitely an "in vogue" thing for a long long time after 1066... It largely fell out of use with the rise of gun powder, however IIRC, the "last" lance wielding cav charge was in the Franco-Prussian war? (or it was in the 1800s with Napoleon's armies... sometimes things get jumbled in my brain.
The Polish cavalry used lances in WW2, and achieved a number of notable successes with it. The very last cavalry charge using lances was during the battle of Schönfeld on 1 March 1945.
That sounds like the one I was thinking of. I knew I had heard of it before, I just couldn't remember the name of the battle, etc.
I wonder why in post apocalyptic film when fire arms and bullets are rare, they don't make their own guns? In Thailand, many criminals have homemade firearm. I guess there must be some black market work shop in Thailand that make these firearm and sell them.
I think if Gun control were ever to take place in USA, these type of guns will start coming out. I think that control will never work when there are human desire and technology that has already been discover... people will get what they want.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Likely because the people who post-apocalyptic movies are unaware that guns and bullets are fairly easy to make. Although a real limiting factor is the casing itself. While reusable, new ones could likely only be made in limited quantities. So bullets would become a valuable commodity.
And yes, this is yet another reason why gun control simply isn't feasible.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Likely because the people who post-apocalyptic movies are unaware that guns and bullets are fairly easy to make. Although a real limiting factor is the casing itself. While reusable, new ones could likely only be made in limited quantities. So bullets would become a valuable commodity.
And yes, this is yet another reason why gun control simply isn't feasible.
The one shot scatter gun rod would be good. You just carry a few rods as a weapon, like old Pirates with his musket. Easy to make and almost endless supply of ammo as long as you have gun powder. Short effective in 10 yard range and beat hand to hand all day.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Muskets would likely also see a resurgence if casings proved difficult or impossible to acquire.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Speaking of practical weapons - morning star flail - cool looking. Practical? Maybe on horseback, but definitely not on foot. Also, did knights use their lances in open combat, or were they mostly used for jousting?
Flails CAN be practical, but they do have downsides... 1. you have to use it's momentum. 2. it's only really good use is as a "disarming weapon", which leads to 3. You still need other weapons to fight.
Posted as you were typing also, the video posted just now of exotic weapon plays includes flail plays. Enjoy.
The farm tool scythe as a weapon is a myth. That freaking thing is almost impossible to use in combat. You have better chance at wining combat with a iron pan.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
But plenty of other farm implements were useful on the battlefield. The billhook is an example of a proper weapon of war developed from a farming tool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%28weapon%29
It was basically an axe with a grabbing hook on the tip. useful for chopping or snagging stuff around a farmstead. It proved equally adept at hacking through armor or dragging an armored knight off his horse.
And hey, a scythe is better than nothing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:17:50
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Artorias the Abysswalker wrote: Interesting, I was thinking about this, does anyone have knightly roots, or is descended from a medieval order?
I've done extensive research of my family history, and one of my forbearers on my mother's side, fought in Maximillian I's army and was knighted after a skirmish. We even have our own coat of arms for House Grama - a golden sun on a purple field, and our motto is "We stand fast".
Sadly, at my current state I would mayhaps be equivalent to a merchant's son and might have a glimmer of hope, that I might be a squire and not go to battle with a pitchfork
I think I am related to Genghis Khan because of a documentary I saw. I think it was something like Sex in the middle ages. It turned out that Genghis Khan is one of the guy who "spawn" the most offspring in the world.
If I remember correctly, he had something like over 1,000 children by rape, concubine, etc... The decedents would have this "long ear lob" and they tested the DNA and genes of this trait. It was something like 1 in 500 Asians were Genghis Khan decedents. My uncle have this trait, so may be my great great times x grand mother was rape by Genghis Khan... don't know if that is something to be proud or ashamed off.
I think also, if you are european decedent.. you have something like 1 in 2,000 chances of be Julius Caesar. Same show about Sex and decedent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:22:55
It's also not true that the farm tool scythe is a myth. Scythes were converted into make shift pole arms. Take the blade off the scythe and use it as a spear tip. Not ideal, but it's still pointy and it saves you the time of having to make spear tips from scratch.
The Japanese Kama is a similar such weapon, though due to it's smaller hand held size, it didn't need much conversion to be made useable.
Swords likely had their start way back when being developed from the sickle or other bladed farming tools.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:24:48
LordofHats wrote: It's also not true that the farm tool scythe is a myth. Scythes were converted into make shift pole arms. Take the blade off the scythe and use it as a spear tip. Not ideal, but it's still pointy and it saves you the time of having to make spear tips from scratch.
The Japanese Kama is a similar such weapon, though due to it's smaller hand held size, it didn't need much conversion to be made useable.
Swords likely had their start way back when being developed from the sickle or other bladed farming tools.
In dedicato imperatum ultra articulo mortis 
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