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I pointed that out in one of those bimonthly "worst army" challenge threads when the book came out- I have no idea how you could intentionally ruin a necron list. Everything is at least a B+ unit. Everything that doesn't get killed by t3 will have most likely paid for itself in either damage caused or tactical trades, like tarpitting. I've already seen a set of 3 scarabs go around an opponent's backfield cleaning up 5 drop pods so that line breaker wouldn't be an issue, while the rest of the army ignored the pods and fought on.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Everything is at least a B+ unit.

The sad thing is, this is true, and is the way every codex should be, unfortunately.

Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

O.o

Uh, I dunno about that. Serpent Spam is still tough for anyone, even Necrons.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

O.o

Uh, I dunno about that. Serpent Spam is still tough for anyone, even Necrons.

Dident take him but one game losing them to mass tomb blades to change his mind.

 Orock wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

O.o

Uh, I dunno about that. Serpent Spam is still tough for anyone, even Necrons.

Dident take him but one game losing them to mass tomb blades to change his mind.

Well...I guess if spamming Tomb Blades is the option, then yeah Serpent spam would die rather easily.

One of my friends actually feels bad enough using the Decurian in friendly games, it takes more firepower to drop a single warrior than it should for the basic troops, so he has chosen to not use that, just using some of the formations, which have been awesome.

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

How? How do those few guys stand a chance against them? Ive seen a 1500 point match at saturday. They never had a chance. Belial tried hard not to suck, but he bit the dust like every one else of his battlebrothers.

even without the Decurion i'm feeling bad with my crons.

i ran what i thought was a very unoptimal list, but i tabled a double riptide tau player at the top of turn 2.

he had:
2 riptides
1 hammerhead with long strike
2 squads of 10 fire warriors
pathfinder squad
and 2 squads of 2 crisis battle suits


my list was
destroyer lord
20 X warrior squad
2 X 10X warrior squad
Triarch Stalker
min squad of scarabs
harvest formation
conclave of burning one - deceiver shard


the blob of 20 was hitting on 2's re-rolling on 1's....goodnight sweet everything within rapid fire range

niv-mizzet wrote:
I pointed that out in one of those bimonthly "worst army" challenge threads when the book came out- I have no idea how you could intentionally ruin a necron list. Everything is at least a B+ unit.

This is very true. It is literally impossible to take a bad unit out of this codex. Sure, some are better than others, but there is no equivalent of Wyches or Hellions in this book. Even Eldar have Banshees as their albatross unit.

I am baffled by the new Necron codex as it is completely out of synch with ever other 7th edition codex, thus far. Good for Necron players, but bad for everyone else. At this point, I don't even care if they "fix" Eldar and Tau with new codexes any more, as they've already given us an Eldar 2.0.

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

I swear every Necron thread turns into a bunch of necron players going, "We're not that bad, we just have a strong codex" and glossing over the massive cheese that is buffed reanimations and underpriced units.

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

satire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

OFC I would start building eldar right before this cron stuff dropped.

My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Feeling a bit bad about it.

I've not lost with it yet, and in some of those games I didn't even lose a single unit.

Its like playing on easy mode.

The only weakness of the list is the lack of psychic defense, but this can be largely mitigated.

Murrdox wrote:
My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Again, it all comes down to what he's fielding in the Decurion. I played a 1500 point game a few nights ago against someone still learning the game, so I took it easy on him. I played a very basic Reclamation Legion, a minimum Destroyer Cult, and 2x 10 man Flayed One units. He was using a Captain with the relic jump pack and Stormshield and all that goodness, with Sanguinary Guard, 8 Termies with Claws and a Librarian, A Libby Dreadnaught and 5x Death Company in a Stormraven, some tac squads, some bikes, and some scouts.

He had never played against Necrons yet, so I felt I handicapped myself a good bit. Footslogging troops, I had a single Warscythe as my AP2, no fliers, no vehicles, very basic. We played Maelstrom, and I helped him along the way as much as I could. First 2 turns there was no first blood, until he killed his own Libby with perils. His Stormraven tore apart a unit of Flayed Ones, and Death Company and Sang Guard tore through units of Destroyers (Though the DC were tied up for a few combats). At the end of the game, He had his Stormraven, his librarian dreadnaught, a single Sang Guard, and a Tac squad left. I had a single unit of Destroyers, My overlord and some of his immortals, both squads of warriors were at about half strength, and my D-lord with his flayed ones had most of their unit intact. I had to say, he did rather well for being a newbie, and I really only won because of how the TacOs played out. (I think the score was about 11-5)

I don't think it matter much about your skill level when it comes to fighting Necrons, and honestly, it depends on what formations their bringing in the Decurion. If you're playing someone spamming Wraiths in Harvests, sure, that sucks. I can make casual lists still, and have them perform well, but not break the game. Though next time he might wanna actually see what wraiths are capable of. >.>

I don't feel bad, but I think I might suck with necrons. I have assault armies, and I have that strategy down pretty well. a 24" shooting army feels odd. First game I lost little. Played against DE and was tabled. You should have seen my wraiths die. 4 wounds = 1 dead wraith. I think I will try a foot slog army soon, but I only own about 40 warriors and nor much else outside of vehicles.

Pretty much the only way to make a "bad" Decurion is to neglect your Reclamation Legion. As long as your invincible gunline horde is set it doesn't matter too much which supplementary forces you take.

Decurion is a meta changer, so people who copy current net lists and follow trends will have a lot of trouble until information starts becoming available about how to adapt. Basic Decurion units like Warriors, Immortals and Tomb Blades really only die when you cover them all with a S8 AP3 template, or enormous amounts of high-strength AP3 melee attacks. Most lists aren't bringing that to the table. The main reason is before Decurion, they didn't need too!

One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

Counters are out there, but you're not going to see them in common use until every army figures out how to pull it all together into something of a TAC list. Obviously what works on IKs is going to completely flop with Necrons. So that's not going to be easy.

Well, the new Khorne Daemonkin codex runs a similar formation that gives some nice bonuses with some cumbersome minimal requirements. We'll see soon enough how well it compares to the Decurian. Getting a free blood tithe point and ability each turn isn't bad, but the biggest problem are the units in the various detachments, they simply aren't as good and have some pretty hefty minimal requirements. This was a missed opportunity to fix alot of the busted Khorne units in both SM and CD books, but according to early rumors, nothing was changed from a rules or points perspective.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Again, it all comes down to what he's fielding in the Decurion. I played a 1500 point game a few nights ago against someone still learning the game, so I took it easy on him. I played a very basic Reclamation Legion, a minimum Destroyer Cult, and 2x 10 man Flayed One units. He was using a Captain with the relic jump pack and Stormshield and all that goodness, with Sanguinary Guard, 8 Termies with Claws and a Librarian, A Libby Dreadnaught and 5x Death Company in a Stormraven, some tac squads, some bikes, and some scouts.

He had never played against Necrons yet, so I felt I handicapped myself a good bit. Footslogging troops, I had a single Warscythe as my AP2, no fliers, no vehicles, very basic. We played Maelstrom, and I helped him along the way as much as I could. First 2 turns there was no first blood, until he killed his own Libby with perils. His Stormraven tore apart a unit of Flayed Ones, and Death Company and Sang Guard tore through units of Destroyers (Though the DC were tied up for a few combats). At the end of the game, He had his Stormraven, his librarian dreadnaught, a single Sang Guard, and a Tac squad left. I had a single unit of Destroyers, My overlord and some of his immortals, both squads of warriors were at about half strength, and my D-lord with his flayed ones had most of their unit intact. I had to say, he did rather well for being a newbie, and I really only won because of how the TacOs played out. (I think the score was about 11-5)

I don't think it matter much about your skill level when it comes to fighting Necrons, and honestly, it depends on what formations their bringing in the Decurion. If you're playing someone spamming Wraiths in Harvests, sure, that sucks. I can make casual lists still, and have them perform well, but not break the game. Though next time he might wanna actually see what wraiths are capable of. >.>

What are you trying to proove? Read your post again. So you played against a new player, won by a lenght, didn't loose much from your army while beating his.

rhavien wrote:


What are you trying to proove? Read your post again. So you played against a new player, won by a lenght, didn't loose much from your army while beating his.

The point was he was a fresh player, and did VERY well against me. The Decurion didn't break the game or anything, and it's usually people bringing the Canoptek Harvest and the like that give it a bad name.

Yoyoyo wrote:
One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

A LRBT firing its Battle Cannon and snapfiring all 3 Heavy Bolters kills about 3.15 non-decurion Necron Warriors, or 39 points.

5 Rough Riders charging 3 Tomb Blades have 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds. 1.66 dead.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Decurion is a meta changer, so people who copy current net lists and follow trends will have a lot of trouble until information starts becoming available about how to adapt. Basic Decurion units like Warriors, Immortals and Tomb Blades really only die when you cover them all with a S8 AP3 template, or enormous amounts of high-strength AP3 melee attacks. Most lists aren't bringing that to the table. The main reason is before Decurion, they didn't need too!

One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

I have trouble accepting these assertions.

LRBT's aren't particularly great. An LRBT with heavy bolter sponsons is 170pts. It can only snap-fire those heavy bolters if it fires its main gun, making those heavy bolters largely ineffective and pointless. That main guns effectiveness is extremely variable, it's dependent not just on scatter, but on enemy model spread and the simple number of models that are there at all. Cover likewise is a gigantic issue for it, as often (if not usually) the target will have a 4+ or at least a 5+ cover save with a competent opponent and a properly set up table, at least if they're not super close.

Yeah, they're scare if you land a pieplate on target against a good sized unit, clumped up and in the open. Outside of that, they're not actually killing that much.

With regards to Rough Riders, a full unit of 10 getting a charge off onto a unit of Tomb Blades that are part of a Decurion, assuming zero casualties before getting stuck in and no "reroll 1's" on reanimation protocols, the Rough Riders will kill 2-3, and if combat goes to another round the RR's will likely lose subsequent combats (and will be wounding on 6's instead of 4's). That said, we're talking about a T3 5+sv Ld7/8 infantry unit almost assuredly won't make it in, or won't make it in with any strength, against even a half-way competent opponent, and overwatch from even a 5man Tomb Blade squad is probably going to kill 2 or 3 RR's by itself.

Chalking everything up to just a "meta shift" is a big disingenuous. We've had armies with 3+ armor and 4+ FNP around, (Plague Marines) they're not unknown in tournaments, and they don't have the same effect, largely because such units are far more expensive than their Necron counterparts. The Decurion and formations giving huge survivability bonuses for zero additional points cost gives them Plague Marine resiliency at basic Tac marine cost essentially.

Typhon battle tank hooooy!

Even then it's only killing 2/3's of what it would against anyone else. Even less if we're talking wraiths or chronometrons being involved.

rhavien wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Again, it all comes down to what he's fielding in the Decurion. I played a 1500 point game a few nights ago against someone still learning the game, so I took it easy on him. I played a very basic Reclamation Legion, a minimum Destroyer Cult, and 2x 10 man Flayed One units. He was using a Captain with the relic jump pack and Stormshield and all that goodness, with Sanguinary Guard, 8 Termies with Claws and a Librarian, A Libby Dreadnaught and 5x Death Company in a Stormraven, some tac squads, some bikes, and some scouts.

He had never played against Necrons yet, so I felt I handicapped myself a good bit. Footslogging troops, I had a single Warscythe as my AP2, no fliers, no vehicles, very basic. We played Maelstrom, and I helped him along the way as much as I could. First 2 turns there was no first blood, until he killed his own Libby with perils. His Stormraven tore apart a unit of Flayed Ones, and Death Company and Sang Guard tore through units of Destroyers (Though the DC were tied up for a few combats). At the end of the game, He had his Stormraven, his librarian dreadnaught, a single Sang Guard, and a Tac squad left. I had a single unit of Destroyers, My overlord and some of his immortals, both squads of warriors were at about half strength, and my D-lord with his flayed ones had most of their unit intact. I had to say, he did rather well for being a newbie, and I really only won because of how the TacOs played out. (I think the score was about 11-5)

I don't think it matter much about your skill level when it comes to fighting Necrons, and honestly, it depends on what formations their bringing in the Decurion. If you're playing someone spamming Wraiths in Harvests, sure, that sucks. I can make casual lists still, and have them perform well, but not break the game. Though next time he might wanna actually see what wraiths are capable of. >.>

What are you trying to proove? Read your post again. So you played against a new player, won by a lenght, didn't loose much from your army while beating his.

Yeah, I was a bit confused by this as well. By your own admission you took it easy on him and brought a sub-optimal list (by Necron standards)...and you still almost tabled him. You said he had a single Dreadnaught, a flyer, one Sang Guard, and one Tac squad left. And you still had a unit of Destroyers, some Immortals, two partial squads of Warriors, and most of your D-Lord + Flayed Ones unit. And you won by more than double his VP score? Sounds like quite the moral victory for your opponent.

First of all, sloppy calc on the Rough Riders, my bad. I still want to pursue this though.

I don't disagree with what you guys are saying. But this discussion is the process of adaptation itself, where we weigh new ideas, discard what doesn't work, and find what does. I'm repeating your own words, Vak -- Decurion and formations give huge survivability bonuses for zero additional points. That's exactly why it's significant to the meta. Why? You simply cannot throw fire against Decurion points-for-points and get results. So really your only option is to outmanuever it or try something radically different. A lot of popular netlists rely on shooting attack output, that's what's popular to weigh effectiveness on the forums right now, and Decurion upsets that.

That's the thing. It's easy to say "5x Rough Riders kill 1.67 Tomb Blades, not gonna work". But a TL-Punisher on a Vulture, a "good" weapon, only kills 2.2! And it can't lock the unit in CC. Find some way to buff the squad, and they will eventually wear down the remainder. If not, maybe you just hold them in assault and focus on the rest of the board.

I'm not saying "Rough Riders are good". I'm just saying Decurion is going to shake things up. Same with the LRBT. How can I reduce scatter? How can I manipulate the board to get units to clump up? Is there a better platform that can give me a S8 AP3 blast and lots of Bolters so it's not useless when the template effectiveness tails off? What options do I unlock with Enfeeble? Of course I don't have the answer -- I started thinking about this today! But that's the process that's going to happen, someone will find something that works, and eventually everyone else will copy it. If nothing else, Infantry are slow and have short-range. Bikes are expensive. So I'm sure eventually someone will have the answers, even if I don't today.

I don't feel bad. I still feel good.

I like that I can play Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers and put together something resembling a Terminator-style army that looks like one and actually plays like one.

Yoyoyo wrote:
snip.

It is more of an example that IG sucks as 7th ed codex and that is all. Good armies have anwsers to other good armies, unless they are direct counter builds. IG can't deal with good builds even, if it takes ally. In fact the "good" way to play IG is to ignore all units that are not wyverns, multi CAD and hope that the opposing army isn't flying or mounted up.

I see necron players here saying come up with a counter.. my gaming group of roughly 12 thought long and hard and have though of one.. we don't play our necron guy j/k haha. He uses the old codex cause he is to cheap to buy the new one.

Quad heavy bolters. 3 in a battery. No gauss benefit as T7 and not a vehicle. Puts out 18 tl bs4 st5 ap4 shots. That's an average of 16hits. 5.33 dead warriors after 4+rp (assuming no chronometron or res orb). Makes it's points back in 2 turns.

Yoyoyo is right in the fact that it will help change the meta - hard hitting reliable assault units could sweep most crons units fairly easily. As long as the opponent doesn't have many wraiths, lychguard or praetorians.