Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
locarno24 wrote: [
The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.
How is that any different than Space Wolves, who basically laugh in the face of the Inquisition and the Codex Astartes? DA are not the first to break the rules
I kinda feel like it's a bit of a loaded question. Loyal to Imperium, yes, I'd say they are. Loyal to the current ruling bodies of the Imperium? No. No probably not at all.
You can still be a good guy, and do the right things overall but know that other authorities would question your methods or even turn against you as an individual or even a group if they deemed you to dangerous to their own ways of thinking. It's a fine line to walk.
I look at it the same way I look at the TV show 'Dexter' (even though I think the entire premise of that show is flawed).
Is he a killer? Yes.
Is he only killing people just as bad or arguably worse than he himself is in terms of danger to society as a whole? Yes.
Is what he does still technically against the rules created by society even though they are benefiting from his actions? Yes.
Thing is, if people other than the current ruling body in the Imperium were making the rules and enforcing things differently, the DA might not even have this problem, or be in a position where their actions were questioned. They could be more open with their little secret, take up the good fight, and champion the cause of the Imperium more completely were the current ruling bodies more understanding and equitable towards resolving issues through less genocidal means.
But they aren't. So the DA is left having to rely on only themselves and their own strength of arms due to the causal relationship they have with the broader ruling bodies. I'm kinda okay with that though honestly. Screw those other dudes, the DA do what they think is the right thing for the DA. I don't feel like they owe anything to anyone, given they'd likely be immediately targeted for extermination if the High Lords and Inquisition had their way, even though the current DA have been fighting against their past for 10,000 years.
The problem with that idea is that the current society of the Imperium wasn't in place when the initial betrayal happened. Not to mention they could at least ask any nearby chapters for help tracking down a traitor, rather than actually opening fire on the friendly chapter to hide their secret. I mostly agree with locarno24 on this one, the lengths they will go to covering up the betrayal eclipses the betrayal IMO. They aren't traitors, but they aren't loyal either.
I actually kinda have to disagree with you there. I don't disagree with you that it wasn't the same Imperium back just after the Heresy, but the current model of the Imperium is the problem they face currently. And the current DA had no part in what their forebears did, yet they "would" be castigated by other current Imperium entities if they don't act with an iron fist. Should you be judged by the things your father did? No. But they will be, and they know it. The only recourse they have in the current political landscape of the Imperium is to be so strong that their decisions and actions are unassailable by those who would judge them. An artificial "Might makes Right" position. If assuming that position makes their decisions ones that sometimes force an unwarranted action, an action some would call self centered, even evil, then so be it. That is the tragic position they inhabit. This is exactly the sort of thing that makes them fascinating in my eyes. I could never blame an animal or even another man for doing what was necessary for survival. Judge yes, but blame? No. With their untenable position in the current Imperium with current Imperium rationale, survival is exactly what keeping their secrets means.
So are they loyal? Certainly, I'd say so. Who works for someone you know will axe you for something you currently have no control over without openly quitting? Someone who is loyal, that's who. That does not mean they won't do their best to serve their own interests however. And I cannot blame them for that. It's a dark universe out there.
Edit: Man, I can't seem to get these quote things right.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:48:58
ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")
Agent_Tremolo wrote: In my personal scale for rating unlikely prophecies it scored two Millenium Bugs and one Mayan Apocalypse.
By that definition an employee who works for a company that treats him like garbage but occassionally steals things from the company would be considered a loyal employee, and that simply isn't true. I still maintain my position that what they have done in the name of covering up something that was admittedly not their fault is worse than what they are covering up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 16:59:31
I voted "Yes" because I think the DA think of themselves as loyal.
However, as a BT I say they are dirty heretics who deserve justice to be dealt to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thairne wrote: BT capturing Cypher?
No way in the warp they could catch him.
That attitude is why you would not serve in the ranks of the BT. Black Templar embody faith, zeal and the ultimate knowledge that doubt and fear are weakness.
And most likely they didn't catch him in the warp, but somewhere in realspace.
I'm not doubting the BT's prowess. I'm however doubting that this wasn't somehow Cypher's plan all along. After every bit of fluff I read about that guy, he's the CREEEED of the Space Marines that outwits basically anyone. Simply "getting caught" doesn't fit the bill.
Just as planned...
Data author for Battlescribe
Found a bug? Join, ask, report:
https://discord.gg/pMXqCqWJRE
Orblivion wrote: By that definition an employee who works for a company that treats him like garbage but occassionally steals things from the company would be considered a loyal employee, and that simply isn't true. I still maintain my position that what they have done in the name of covering up something that was admittedly not their fault is worse than what they are covering up.
I don't see that angle man, but it's okay to disagree on it. I would say put yourself in their position though. If you admit to any of what has come before, you know the Imperium is going to gang up on you and eradicate you and every man under you. There's not really any question about that.
So what do you do? Do you agree to take on punishment for something that came long before your time? Or do you take the strongest position you can? Each person will answer that in their own way. I'm fine with what they've chosen, and I don't feel like it calls their loyalty into question, only their judgement.
ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")
Agent_Tremolo wrote: In my personal scale for rating unlikely prophecies it scored two Millenium Bugs and one Mayan Apocalypse.
Either way, it's more fun for me to say the BT captured him and if it wasnt for those meddling kids (Dark Angels) we would have been able to bring him to justice.
Although this does bring one question to mind. Since when do Black Templar take prisoners?
Orblivion wrote: By that definition an employee who works for a company that treats him like garbage but occassionally steals things from the company would be considered a loyal employee, and that simply isn't true. I still maintain my position that what they have done in the name of covering up something that was admittedly not their fault is worse than what they are covering up.
I don't see that angle man, but it's okay to disagree on it. I would say put yourself in their position though. If you admit to any of what has come before, you know the Imperium is going to gang up on you and eradicate you and every man under you. There's not really any question about that.
So what do you do? Do you agree to take on punishment for something that came long before your time? Or do you take the strongest position you can? Each person will answer that in their own way. I'm fine with what they've chosen, and I don't feel like it calls their loyalty into question, only their judgement.
There is a difference between being reluctant to reveal their secret, and actively attacking their allies to conceal it. They could at least start with cutting that gak out, moving forward.
They are as loyal as any other Chapter, but like most other chapters they tend to think they're above the rabble. It's not uncommon for Space Marines to go on their own and refuse to listen to other Imperial authority even if it would outrank them, because they're Adeptus Astartes and the saviours of mankind, the avenging angels, the warriors of the sky.
All of the Space Marines pretty much embody the sin of Pride. Some of them just also happen to have other sins as well.
I find it likely that Cypher need to point out some corupt BT to the DAs. So he got himself caught so the DA would remove them to keep their secret not knowing they killed heretics.
I am a firm believer that not only is Cypher a good guy but a supernatural troll.
Cypher is A good guy. Funny that cypher was the name of the position of "record and tradition keeper" for the order of knights on Caliban that Johnson led.
Rippy wrote: I believe they are now, though they weren't at time of heresy.
Yes they were. The majority at least, and the Lion was. Obviously there were Luthers lot who fell to Chaos but the Dark Angels as a whole were loyal during the Heresy.
I prefer the other theory actually, where secretly the Lion did fall.
Rippy wrote: I believe they are now, though they weren't at time of heresy.
Yes they were. The majority at least, and the Lion was. Obviously there were Luthers lot who fell to Chaos but the Dark Angels as a whole were loyal during the Heresy.
I prefer the other theory actually, where secretly the Lion did fall.
When he wakes up, well ask him, at least last time I checked, he's in the middle of the Dwayn Johnson being tended too by the watchers in the dark, that's still a thing that's happening right?
Shadowrun is the best game ever. It's the only thing I have ever played in which I have jumped out of a shot out van with a chainsaw to cut a flying drone in half before leveling a building with ANFO assisted by a troll, a dwarf, an elf, and a wizard.
locarno24 wrote: [
The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.
How is that any different than Space Wolves, who basically laugh in the face of the Inquisition and the Codex Astartes? DA are not the first to break the rules
The big difference is that the Space Wolves don't actively attack other Imperial institutions or Space Marines. The SW did get into conflict with the Inquisition, but rather than attacking and assassinating any offending inquisitors, they remained oassive and non-violent until the Inquisition started to fire on them, at which point they defended themselves. The Dark Angels on the other hand have attacked their allies without any need to defend themselves.
locarno24 wrote: [
The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.
How is that any different than Space Wolves, who basically laugh in the face of the Inquisition and the Codex Astartes? DA are not the first to break the rules
The big difference is that the Space Wolves don't actively attack other Imperial institutions or Space Marines. The SW did get into conflict with the Inquisition, but rather than attacking and assassinating any offending inquisitors, they remained oassive and non-violent until the Inquisition started to fire on them, at which point they defended themselves. The Dark Angels on the other hand have attacked their allies without any need to defend themselves.
FakeBritishPerson wrote: Nah, they've killed Black Templars and stolen a lot of stuff. The filthy heretics. Loyal to their Primarch and chapter? Absolutely.
Source?
4th edition Black Templar codex.
The Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf (998.M41) - A smaller Crusade was launched by Castellan Raimer, the master of the Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Ophidium Gulf and its company of 90 Black Templars, into an unexplored region of space in the galactic south called the Veiled Region by Imperial stellar cartographers. The Black Templars inadvertently made contact with the Fallen Angels, the hunted Traitors of the Dark Angels Space Marine Chapter. While in the Veiled Region, they came upon a small Dark Angels fleet. The Black Templars' capture of one of the Fallen Angels, and their refusal to turn him over to the custody of the Dark Angels, nearly led to open conflict between the two Chapters. Outgunned, Castellan Raimer reluctantly turned the prisoner over to the Dark Angels before he departed the Veiled Region. The ultimate fate of the Ophidium Gulf is unknown, as a single astropathic communication from the starship was received just before it prepared to make a Warp jump from the alien system, and no further communication has been received by the Black Templars from the starship since then.
My vote: yes, they are loyal to the Emperor. However, they are not good "Team Players" by any use of the term!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 20:19:58
locarno24 wrote: [
The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.
How is that any different than Space Wolves, who basically laugh in the face of the Inquisition and the Codex Astartes? DA are not the first to break the rules
The big difference is that the Space Wolves don't actively attack other Imperial institutions or Space Marines. The SW did get into conflict with the Inquisition, but rather than attacking and assassinating any offending inquisitors, they remained oassive and non-violent until the Inquisition started to fire on them, at which point they defended themselves. The Dark Angels on the other hand have attacked their allies without any need to defend themselves.
You know, frankly I love that difference though. The DA are absolutely, in no uncertain terms, not "screwing around." There's no passivity involved. If it's likely that they need to make something happen in order to protect themselves or actively mitigate potential damage to one of their interests, they will not hesitate to "disappear" someone, something or even an entire starship. They aren't around to play nice with anyone, including the Inquisition.
I just really really wish their army reflected that a little more on the table atm. Too me, fluffwise, they seem like the biker gang that doesn't take guff from anyone and that other people should be complaining about in "life is so unfair blogs." You ever meet someone that you flat out thought, "I will NOT mess with that guy. He doesn't care about laws, he actually will destroy me and no one will ever find my body. I disrespect him at my own peril and I do not wanna be that foolish."? That's how I enjoy imagining the DA. In my head, they are some seriously bad mojo. Plus they actually do have bikes
Man I wish they played on the board the way they do in my head.
ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")
Agent_Tremolo wrote: In my personal scale for rating unlikely prophecies it scored two Millenium Bugs and one Mayan Apocalypse.
locarno24 wrote: [ The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.
How is that any different than Space Wolves, who basically laugh in the face of the Inquisition and the Codex Astartes? DA are not the first to break the rules
The big difference is that the Space Wolves don't actively attack other Imperial institutions or Space Marines. The SW did get into conflict with the Inquisition, but rather than attacking and assassinating any offending inquisitors, they remained passive and non-violent until the Inquisition started to fire on them, at which point they defended themselves. The Dark Angels on the other hand have attacked their allies without any need to defend themselves.
But the DA are the violent and aggressive ones....
Exactly what I said. In both cases, the SW were not the agressors. Unlike the Space Wolves, who only react with force to agressive behaviour from other Imperials, the Dark Angels fire first on their allies (including their own brother Astartes no less) for no apparent reason but 'No! You can't find out about our super secret secret!' The DA are so ruthless in their hunt and keeping of their secrets, it goes above loyalty to the Imperium for them. That is where the DA cross the line from being loyal to the shady area of not loyal but not really traitors either. The DA, even more so than the SW, are on the edge of being renegades.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 20:45:15
Inkubas wrote: I've been reading a lot of the fluff and seeing a lot of the comments regarding the ambiguous alliance of the Dark Angels with people thinking that they aren't loyal. I don't understand why people believe that? The Lion was always loyal the Emperor and the only thing that the Dark Angels are concerned about is erasing the mistakes of the past through any means possible.
They feel (rightly so, perhaps) that if the information about half the legion turning to Chaos would cause them to be destroyed and branded traitors.
Cypher and the Fallen are supposedly loyal to the Emperor, yet they hang out with Chaos. It would only make sense that the DA are traitors that hang out with the IoM
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Lion's dealings with the traitor are suspect. He was either plotting to turn, exploiting heresy for personal gain or was seriously dense.
Spoiler:
Lion: Pertuabo, Horus has turned on us all. He is a traitor and will be defeated. Do you know what this means?
Peturabo: .....
Lion: It means he won't be warmaster anymore!
Peturabo: Oh, right. I mean, OF COURSE he will fail.
Lion: Totally, I just stole the siege engines he needs to storm the imperial palace.
Peturabo: Dope man. So who will be the next warmaster you think?
Lion: Well I dont mean to toot my own horn but, I am the only real choice.
Peturabo: Oh, really. I dont know man. You who is really WarMastery?
Lion: Who Who Who?
Peturabo: Russ.
Lion: NOOOO anyone but him. I hate him.
Peturabo: I tell you what. Why dont you give me those siege engines you stole from the forge world and for that ill support your claim to warmaster after we *easily* defeat Horus.
Lion: Oh that is so nice of you. Sure ill give you the siege engines that are really good at storming large fortresses. Fortresses like Dorn's defenses on Terra.
Peturabo:You know me, I love siege engines and uhh they will be safer with me. Certainly wouldnt want to give them to Dorn, he is clearly a Russ guy.
Lion: I'm so lucky to have a friend like you!
Lion: Next Im gonna go talk to Kurze. He is the linchpin to becoming Warmaster. If I can get him on my side Ill surely win
Peturabo: Sure thing man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 20:50:49
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
locarno24 wrote: [
The Dark Angels are loyalists. And they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. But they're loyal only as long as they can be loyal on their terms.
How is that any different than Space Wolves, who basically laugh in the face of the Inquisition and the Codex Astartes? DA are not the first to break the rules
The big difference is that the Space Wolves don't actively attack other Imperial institutions or Space Marines. The SW did get into conflict with the Inquisition, but rather than attacking and assassinating any offending inquisitors, they remained passive and non-violent until the Inquisition started to fire on them, at which point they defended themselves. The Dark Angels on the other hand have attacked their allies without any need to defend themselves.
But the DA are the violent and aggressive ones....
Exactly what I said. In both cases, the SW were not the agressors. Unlike the Space Wolves, who only react with force to agressive behaviour from other Imperials, the Dark Angels fire first on their allies (including their own brother Astartes no less) for no apparent reason but 'No! You can't find out about our super secret secret!'
The DA are so ruthless in their hunt and keeping of their secrets, it goes above loyalty to the Imperium for them. That is where the DA cross the line from being loyal to the shady area of not loyal but not really traitors either. The DA, even more so than the SW, are on the edge of being renegades.
In both cases, the Inquisition wanted the SW to submit to an order from the Imperium. In the Fenris Incident, they literally just wanted to come in and investigate, but Russ flipped out and opened fire on their vehicle.
The DA have a secret that, if exposed, would likely mean that they would be purged or labeled traitors by the entire IoM. What's the SW reason? They're grumpy wolf-children who stick together and dislike outsiders or people who question their traditions
The Lion's dealings with the traitor are suspect. He was either plotting to turn, exploiting heresy for personal gain or was seriously dense.
Spoiler:
Lion: Pertuabo, Horus has turned on us all. He is a traitor and will be defeated. Do you know what this means?
Peturabo: .....
Lion: It means he won't be warmaster anymore!
Peturabo: Oh, right. I mean, OF COURSE he will fail.
Lion: Totally, I just stole the siege engines he needs to storm the imperial palace.
Peturabo: Dope man. So who will be the next warmaster you think?
Lion: Well I dont mean to toot my own horn but, I am the only real choice.
Peturabo: Oh, really. I dont know man. You who is really WarMastery?
Lion: Who Who Who?
Peturabo: Russ.
Lion: NOOOO anyone but him. I hate him.
Peturabo: I tell you what. Why dont you give me those siege engines you stole from the forge world and for that ill support your claim to warmaster after we *easily* defeat Horus.
Lion: Oh that is so nice of you. Sure ill give you the siege engines that are really good at storming large fortresses. Fortresses like Dorn's defenses on Terra.
Peturabo:You know me, I love siege engines and uhh they will be safer with me. Certainly wouldnt want to give them to Dorn, he is clearly a Russ guy.
Lion: I'm so lucky to have a friend like you!
Lion: Next Im gonna go talk to Kurze. He is the linchpin to becoming Warmaster. If I can get him on my side Ill surely win
Peturabo: Sure thing man.
Why does he have to be dense? The Heresy was something that very few saw coming, so I can totally see the Lion being surprised by being backstabbed by Kurze.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 21:15:07
The Lion was always loyal. The only people who say otherwise are Fallen who were either confused or out to twist the truth (Astelan).
The only thing that the Lion was guilty of was not being able to understand people. Having grown in the Caliban wilds, he was almost feral and had a hard time relating and understanding people. With Zero charisma he let Luthor be the cheerleader while he came up with the strategies.
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
Inkubas wrote: The Lion was always loyal. The only people who say otherwise are Fallen who were either confused or out to twist the truth (Astelan).
The only thing that the Lion was guilty of was not being able to understand people. Having grown in the Caliban wilds, he was almost feral and had a hard time relating and understanding people. With Zero charisma he let Luthor be the cheerleader while he came up with the strategies.
Scuse me. Um yes, HH novel here. The lion in "Descent of Angels" is not only imposing, but exceptionally charismatic, far-sighted, optimistic. Once he sets his mind to something however, it will be done. Whether for good or ill.
The Lion grew up in the wilds of Caliban and has a hard time understanding people. He can come up with all sorts of tactically ingenious ideas but can't judge a person's intentions worth a squat. This was explained in a few books but it shows up in detail when you're reading "Fallen Angels" when Nemiel has to tell the Primarch that the Imperial Guard commander is a good and virtous man and the Magos is shifty. At that moment Nemiel realizes that the charismatic leader in the knights is Luthor and that the Lion is more of the tactical genius.
This inability to read people makes him more frustrated and paranoid when dealing with people during the Heresy.
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
Charsima is getting people to follow you, or like you. Which the lion did well. I never said he was good at relating to people or reading them. He is charismatic due to his passiion, drive, and full beleif of a "better tomorrow".
I know that Charisma is not about being able to read people. What I'm saying is that the Lion was emotionally reserved, unable to discern people around him, distrusting, and a pragmatist instead of an optimist.
The Lion was about as charismatic as a totem pole. He was a brilliant tactician but when it comes to rallying the people and being personable; that was all Luthor.
Luthor was the one that got all the knights of Caliban to get onboard with the Lion's idea to slay all the monsters in the woods. Without Luthor, the Lion wouldn't have been able to accomplish what he did.
This consensus was also echoed by the Primarchs as well as those who were close to the Lion. With most saying that Horus was arguably the better tactician but was more charismatic and loved by the Emperor thus a good contender for the title of Warmaster. To the Lion, on the other hand, felt that he was the clear choice and was denied by fate. He couldn't see that he was distant and secretive.
This is in due part to living in the wilds of Caliban for an unknown amount of time.
He was a good leader (don't get me wrong) but he's about as personable as Stannis from Game of Thrones.
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
Inkubas wrote: I know that Charisma is not about being able to read people. What I'm saying is that the Lion was emotionally reserved, unable to discern people around him, distrusting, and a pragmatist instead of an optimist.
The Lion was about as charismatic as a totem pole. He was a brilliant tactician but when it comes to rallying the people and being personable; that was all Luthor.
Luthor was the one that got all the knights of Caliban to get onboard with the Lion's idea to slay all the monsters in the woods. Without Luthor, the Lion wouldn't have been able to accomplish what he did.
This consensus was also echoed by the Primarchs as well as those who were close to the Lion. With most saying that Horus was arguably the better tactician but was more charismatic and loved by the Emperor thus a good contender for the title of Warmaster. To the Lion, on the other hand, felt that he was the clear choice and was denied by fate. He couldn't see that he was distant and secretive.
This is in due part to living in the wilds of Caliban for an unknown amount of time.
He was a good leader (don't get me wrong) but he's about as personable as Stannis from Game of Thrones.
Whoa whoa whoa. I'll give you Lion was not as personable as Luther, but Horus arguably a better tactician? Um, no. I'd say they were on par, maybe even Horus being a bit better, but the Lion was brilliant. He beat Russ to the punch in defeating a Hive Invasion, he kicked the Night Lords butt all up and down the heresy. I think half the reason Horus won was because his tactic of sucker punch the Imperium worked only because no one expected the betrayal, not that he was infinitely more brilliant that the Lion. He just had more time to prepare because he was stabbing his brothers in the back in secret. Even being surprised by the Night Lords, the Lion still destroyed them handily.
Inkubas wrote: I know that Charisma is not about being able to read people. What I'm saying is that the Lion was emotionally reserved, unable to discern people around him, distrusting, and a pragmatist instead of an optimist.
The Lion was about as charismatic as a totem pole. He was a brilliant tactician but when it comes to rallying the people and being personable; that was all Luthor.
Luthor was the one that got all the knights of Caliban to get onboard with the Lion's idea to slay all the monsters in the woods. Without Luthor, the Lion wouldn't have been able to accomplish what he did.
This consensus was also echoed by the Primarchs as well as those who were close to the Lion. With most saying that Horus was arguably the better tactician but was more charismatic and loved by the Emperor thus a good contender for the title of Warmaster. To the Lion, on the other hand, felt that he was the clear choice and was denied by fate. He couldn't see that he was distant and secretive.
This is in due part to living in the wilds of Caliban for an unknown amount of time.
He was a good leader (don't get me wrong) but he's about as personable as Stannis from Game of Thrones.
Whoa whoa whoa. I'll give you Lion was not as personable as Luther, but Horus arguably a better tactician? Um, no. I'd say they were on par, maybe even Horus being a bit better, but the Lion was brilliant. He beat Russ to the punch in defeating a Hive Invasion, he kicked the Night Lords butt all up and down the heresy. I think half the reason Horus won was because his tactic of sucker punch the Imperium worked only because no one expected the betrayal, not that he was infinitely more brilliant that the Lion. He just had more time to prepare because he was stabbing his brothers in the back in secret. Even being surprised by the Night Lords, the Lion still destroyed them handily.
might I add, taking much less losses than the smurfs in the process.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 04:56:24
The Lion was a brilliant tactician but you have to step back and look at what Horus accomplished:
He purged 3 legions of any loyalist elements(Sons of Horus,Emperor's, Death Guard)
Tricked 3 legions to utter ruin (Iron Hands, Salamanders,Raven Guard)
Detained 3 other legions(Ultramarines,Blood Angels,Dark Angels)
Sent one legion to destroy the other while hurting itself(Wolves vs Thousand suns)
Turned Thousand sons from loyalist to ally
Enlisted Mars as an ally
Controlled his traitorous brothers to varying degrees (Angron, Fulgrim and Kurze)
Boosting his powers with chaos by going on a spirit quest.
Tricked the Lion by having Perturabo take the siege weapons from the Lion. The same ones that he fought and nearly died to defend.
Finally, Horus almost succeeded in destroying the Imperium
Now the Lion did the following:
Cripple one Legion (Night Lords)
Then he arrived late to Terra and heads back to Caliban to meet Luthor and an army of traitors. Loses the 1 vs 1 fight against a chaos enfused Luthor and then takes a power nap for 10,000 years +
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 05:00:48
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
Inkubas wrote: The Lion was a brilliant tactician but you have to step back and look at what Horus accomplished:
He purged 3 legions of any loyalist elements(Sons of Horus,Emperor's, Death Guard)
Tricked 3 legions to utter ruin (Iron Hands, Salamanders,Raven Guard)
Detained 3 other legions(Ultramarines,Blood Angels,Dark Angels)
Sent one legion to destroy the other while hurting itself(Wolves vs Thousand suns)
Enlisted Mars as an ally
Controlled his traitorous brothers to varying degrees (Angron, Fulgrim and Kurze)
Boosting his powers with chaos by going on a spirit quest.
Tricked the Lion by having Perturabo take the siege weapons from the Lion. The same ones that he fought and nearly died to defend.
Finally, Horus almost succeeded in destroying the Imperium
Now the Lion did the following:
Cripple one Legion (Night Lords)
Then he arrived late to Terra and heads back to Caliban to meet Luthor and an army of traitors. Loses the 1 vs 1 fight against a chaos enfused Luthor and then takes a power nap for 10,000 years +
Right, and the ONLY reasons he succeeded doing this were A) the mass amounts of help he had from the Warp influence and others pushing him to fall B) the absolute utter surprise attacks he made and C) the months of planning he had to effectively cripple the IoM. Ofcourse he knew what to do, he was the Warmaster and had months of time to prepare and investigate. Plus, these were armies he knew inside and out because they were his brothers.
Had he just declared he was a traitor and went to war normally, I think the Lion had a fifty-fifty chance of outplanning him. Also, yeah, just crippling the Night Lords, even though they were repeatedly ambushed by, again, surprise attacks.
Finally, I find it funny the Lion gets so much gak for losing to Luthor, but how could poor old wittle Sanguinius stand up to big buff Horus. It's the exact same situation.
~1.5k
It's the exact same situation.