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Yes, the rules support a 2+ FnP, with a +1 modifier to effectively make 1+ FnP - but the same rules also give 4+ Resurrection Protocols with so many +1 modifiers as to be 1+ as well. Lictors used to (long time ago) have modifiers to cover save rolls, for effectively 1+ cover.

Ultimately, the way nearly everyone plays it is that a modifier to a roll changes the roll required. The way it is played (note - not the RAW) is that the following all mean the same thing:

"Improve your armour save by 1."
"Add 1 to your armour save value."
"Add 1 to your armour save rolls."
"+1 to your armour save"
"+1 to your armour save rolls."

All of these would change a 3+ to a 2+, or a 2+ to a 1+, where the roll of "1" always fails. The difference? 1+ armour saves can't be ignored by AP2 weapons.

Again, not RAW, but entirely the way everyone plays it, and what I would suggest you do for this rule as well.

Well at least stomps and D-weapons can still remove the unkillable characters, better get out the ol' 4-5 wraith knights to play against anyone trying to do this. I mean, we are just trying to play a "fair" and "balanced" game right?

I really hope this isn't intentional on GW's part and them just being oblivious again. If it is, I shudder how much power creep is going to be in the Tau Codex and supplements, and may have to update my banner...

 kitch102 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Mr.T wrote:
Srsly, all those people who think that they can play with insta pass FNP on roll 1+ must got something wrong with brain.

Why? This is what the rules say. What is your reasoning for implying that people who follow the rules are brain damaged? I'd happily play against someone who understands ]how to bend the rules well enough to see how a 1+ FnP roll is possible. I'd simply target and kill the Apothecary, and move on with the game. I would NEVER play against someone who implied that I was brain damaged.

Fixed that for you.

Even as a Marine player myself, and therefore someone that could take advantage of this, I wouldn't play someone using this rule in this manner. What would the point be? Engage god mode -> steam roll opposition -> gloat. Where's the fun in that? By being a player that uses the above rule as discussed here, where's the kudos for being a strong tactical mind that simply has a) a strong army in the first place, that is b) backed up by something that would make them immune to 90% of weapons in the game?

If it's a computer game against a computer itself, fine - invulnerability cheat just for the fun, but to pull it on another human is disrespectful and frankly, trolling the game, boring your opponent, and disrespecting yourself if you think you need an unbeatable army to win a game of dice.

Please don't EVER change my words like that again. If you want to disagree with me, fine. If you don't agree with how the rules as written work, fine. Do NOT edit my words.

Getting a FnP roll that is successful on a roll of a 1 or higher doesn't require any rules bending at all. It is obviously not how most people will play and it's very possibly not what GW intended, but it's currently legal rules as written.

While I can see that RaW allows a 1+ roll to be successful, my group and I house rule this issue so that a 1 on a FnP roll will be a fail, much like how 1's are fails for cover, armor and invulnerable saves. We simply added FnP "saves" to that list.

With the amount of force weapons, D weapons, s10 weapons etc it isn't a huge issue, every army has something that can deal with it.

Man...I hope someone will bring the 1+ FnP against me. Then I will feel no guilt at all bringing my Necron Decurion with Crypteks and claiming it all stacks for my RP rolls. Good times.

Is not really scary. I see your 1+ fnp and deny you it with a common s8 or tougher weapon. Whoops, you don't have an invul only fnp? He dies. Loser. Waac. Go cry cause all those points were wasted. Bah... Ih players an their shinanigans.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is not really scary. I see your 1+ fnp and deny you it with a common s8 or tougher weapon. Whoops, you don't have an invul only fnp? He dies. Loser. Waac. Go cry cause all those points were wasted. Bah... Ih players an their shinanigans.

He has a 4+ invulnerable and Eternal Warrior, along with IWND, and he'll be able to LOS! wounds like that. Good luck with your common S8 or tougher weapon though, let us know how it all works out for you.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is not really scary. I see your 1+ fnp and deny you it with a common s8 or tougher weapon. Whoops, you don't have an invul only fnp? He dies. Loser. Waac. Go cry cause all those points were wasted. Bah... Ih players an their shinanigans.

He has a 4+ invulnerable and Eternal Warrior, along with IWND, and he'll be able to LOS! wounds like that. Good luck with your common S8 or tougher weapon though, let us know how it all works out for you.

You act like that's good. That's average. Been dealing with ih in my playgroup. The whole smash fether on a bike with all the gadgets dies every time to basic ork fire. Easy. Don't act like they are "good" please. Good luck with your fantasies of having a "decent" army.

the_hanged_man wrote:
Man...I hope someone will bring the 1+ FnP against me. Then I will feel no guilt at all bringing my Necron Decurion with Crypteks and claiming it all stacks for my RP rolls. Good times.

There was actually a thread about this very topic that got pretty heated. As I recall, it's more or less the same issue. The Codex says that your RP can never be improved to require less than a 4+. The various buffs say they improve the roll by 1. So, if I require a 4+, then roll a 3 and improve it by 1, I've effectively rolled a 4 and passed my 4+. The RP roll required was still a 4+, so the Codex requirement to never improve better than 4+ was maintained.

Not looking to open that can of worms again, but the end result was more or less that it was bad writing and probably the intent was to never allow an unmodified roll lower than a 4+ to be successful. RaW seemed to support lower rolls though, if buffs were present.

 Kriswall wrote:

the_hanged_man wrote:
Man...I hope someone will bring the 1+ FnP against me. Then I will feel no guilt at all bringing my Necron Decurion with Crypteks and claiming it all stacks for my RP rolls. Good times.

There was actually a thread about this very topic that got pretty heated. As I recall, it's more or less the same issue. The Codex says that your RP can never be improved to require less than a 4+. The various buffs say they improve the roll by 1. So, if I require a 4+, then roll a 3 and improve it by 1, I've effectively rolled a 4 and passed my 4+. The RP roll required was still a 4+, so the Codex requirement to never improve better than 4+ was maintained.

Not looking to open that can of worms again, but the end result was more or less that it was bad writing and probably the intent was to never allow an unmodified roll lower than a 4+ to be successful. RaW seemed to support lower rolls though, if buffs were present.

I'm a Necron player and not a Clan Raaukhan one but to me these issues are hugely different. The Necron codex tells you (sloppily) your RPs can't get better than 4+, nothing states FnP can't be improved beyond a 2+ so it is irrelevant whether it is a +1 to the roll or an improve by 1. As such this inherently works and not because of sloppy wording but because of poorly thought out bonuses... You have to roll a particular warlord trait but with the moment of D around it is not so game breaking and it is just 1 model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is not really scary. I see your 1+ fnp and deny you it with a common s8 or tougher weapon. Whoops, you don't have an invul only fnp? He dies. Loser. Waac. Go cry cause all those points were wasted. Bah... Ih players an their shinanigans.

He has a 4+ invulnerable and Eternal Warrior, along with IWND, and he'll be able to LOS! wounds like that. Good luck with your common S8 or tougher weapon though, let us know how it all works out for you.

You act like that's good. That's average. Been dealing with ih in my playgroup. The whole smash fether on a bike with all the gadgets dies every time to basic ork fire. Easy. Don't act like they are "good" please. Good luck with your fantasies of having a "decent" army.

What Orks shooting kills him? Getting lucky with about 60 shokk attack guns? What Orks shooting is S10 or has ID (reme,Bering anything else can't possibly hurt him ever)?

Gifts of the Gorgon are only selectable instead of the relics in Codex Space Marines.

Codex Space Marines no longer exists. This is Codex Adeptus Astartes. In fact, no part of Clan Rakuan can be used as it's presumptive on Codex Space Marines.

If you want to be particular about the rules, you have to use all of them.

Still called Space Marines. Warhammer App has confirmed 6th Ed supplements are still valid with the new codex.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I'm a Necron player and not a Clan Raaukhan one but to me these issues are hugely different. The Necron codex tells you (sloppily) your RPs can't get better than 4+, nothing states FnP can't be improved beyond a 2+ so it is irrelevant whether it is a +1 to the roll or an improve by 1. As such this inherently works and not because of sloppy wording but because of poorly thought out bonuses... You have to roll a particular warlord trait but with the moment of D around it is not so game breaking and it is just 1 model.

Right, the codex tells you you can't get RP better than 4+, but all the bonuses add one to the roll and don't actually modify the target number. So technically, you always have a 5+, but with Everliving and 3 Crypteks in a unit you could roll a 1 and still make the roll just like with FnP here. Of course the broad consensus is that it doesn't actually work that way, but FnP and RP do function similarly in the case of adding bonuses to rolls in this corner case.

the_hanged_man wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

I'm a Necron player and not a Clan Raaukhan one but to me these issues are hugely different. The Necron codex tells you (sloppily) your RPs can't get better than 4+, nothing states FnP can't be improved beyond a 2+ so it is irrelevant whether it is a +1 to the roll or an improve by 1. As such this inherently works and not because of sloppy wording but because of poorly thought out bonuses... You have to roll a particular warlord trait but with the moment of D around it is not so game breaking and it is just 1 model.

Right, the codex tells you you can't get RP better than 4+, but all the bonuses add one to the roll and don't actually modify the target number. So technically, you always have a 5+, but with Everliving and 3 Crypteks in a unit you could roll a 1 and still make the roll just like with FnP here. Of course the broad consensus is that it doesn't actually work that way, but FnP and RP do function similarly in the case of adding bonuses to rolls in this corner case.

I know exactly how the RP rules work and how they are written. However the 4+ barrier is clearly written but poorly written so doesn't work RaW but we know what it is designed to do. There is no 2+ limit real or implied on FnP so the argument is entirely different. Change the RP bonuses to improve your required RP roll by 1 and everything works RaW and there's a 4+ limit. Do the same here for the Iron Hands FnP bonus and you can still get a 1+ FnP. So one rule causes a problem because rather than improving the target it improves the roll. For the other it is irrelevant whether it improves the target or the dice roll.

+1 FNP has always been possible due to Warpfire, but extremely rare,

After looking up the rules with the book finally in hand I must stand corrected.

All situations that say either a 1 always fails or you cant improve it beyond a 2+ are not related to FNP.
As such indeed it is very much legal to have a Immortal dude. The rules do state he must roll for it aswell.
But then your treating a "dick move" with another "dick move".
I myself won't mind if my oppoment uses it. Just remove the chain of offects beginning with the weakest point.
Almost every list has barrage and correct positioning can force LoS / allocation in a preferable style.
Learning how to manipulate allocation is a powerfull tool. Even if you lose the battle the faster and better you get at killing his immortal combo.
The more you learned and get skilled in allocation manipulation. He's teaching you use the lessons and crush them!

There's plenty of things that negate FNP.

One invincible IC does not a game win, especially if they poured so many points into making sure he gets his immortality. (Relic shield, bike, good melee weapon, tagalong squad etc.)

I regularly win games against superheavies by just ignoring them. Would likely treat that guy the same.

Maybe it was said earlier in the thread and i din't see it, but how in the Nine blazing hells, can a Model get a 2+ FnP?

From what i've read about IH tactics and the gorgone chains, at most the guy has a 3+ FnP...

+1 for the ChapTac, if he has an Apothicary that give 5+ FnP it becomes a 4+ FnP, and the Gorgone chains give an extra +1, so thats 3+FnP, where is the extra point to make it a 2+ FnP comes from?.

Also if he loses a wound, the Gorgone chain bonus vanish, and if the Apothicary dies he only has the basic 6+ FnP.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Maybe it was said earlier in the thread and i din't see it, but how in the Nine blazing hells, can a Model get a 2+ FnP?

From what i've read about IH tactics and the gorgone chains, at most the guy has a 3+ FnP...

+1 for the ChapTac, if he has an Apothicary that give 5+ FnP it becomes a 4+ FnP, and the Gorgone chains give an extra +1, so thats 3+FnP, where is the extra point to make it a 2+ FnP comes from?.

Also if he loses a wound, the Gorgone chain bonus vanish, and if the Apothicary dies he only has the basic 6+ FnP.

 Iron_Warden wrote:
Cast Endurance for a standard 3+ FNP or 2+ with the chain or +1 to FNP rolls WL trait.

Oh...yeah forgot about that Psychic bullcrap...

Buts its still many points invested into the survival of ONE model, is it really worth it?...

My 3 Exorcists with D6 S8 Ap1 Shots (each) would have a good laugh before obliterating that Unit in 1 volley

It's just about finding the right counter. Most anti-tank Units will work: Melta Drop-Pods, a proper Tau Gunline, etc

 BlackTalos wrote:
My 3 Exorcists with D6 S8 Ap1 Shots (each) would have a good laugh before obliterating that Unit in 1 volley

It's just about finding the right counter. Most anti-tank Units will work: Melta Drop-Pods, a proper Tau Gunline, etc

Unfortunately the Exorcists can't hurt the unit if the CM is at the front as you're only S8. Remember bikes effect the ID threshold now. Same for melta though you can avoid him.

If you can't inflict Str 10, D or instant death to chapter master shieldface, you can't kill him, ever so long as he still has endurance up and the +1 warlord trait.

Would be a neat way to use a massive blob of guard or something. Toss in an inquisitor with psyotroke and rad grenades and you have yourself a party.

Wait you actually think people care and don't just easily ignore the stupid death star iron hand ultra thingy on a bike with the equipment? Point sink that isn't game changing. I like tieing him up n combat and leaving him stuck for 2-3 turns. So many points wasted with such little actual affect. shame.

It really only costs less than three attack bikes to pull the combo off. If you're trying really hard to get the psychic power you could ally for tigirus or that FW guy and ensure you get the power. After that, you simply have to pray your warlord trait is correct.

I don't think you can ignore a melee killy guy who's really fast. Even trying to tie him up is hard without committing a lot of points. Of course, having him lead a squad of 50 guardsmen with attached IC's, grenades of all kinds, and much more becomes a deathstar that can mutli-charge your whole army. Not saying it's easy to get the 1+ FNP, but it's really hard to ignore in certain situations.

If the Iron Hands Chapter Master is mounted on a bike and joined to a biker command squad they can wreck a lot of face. The command squad can take shields and power fists to make sure they aren't stuck long in close combat. Toss in a BA Priest on a bike to join the party then three biker Librarians from the Conclave... It's no joke.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If the Iron Hands Chapter Master is mounted on a bike and joined to a biker command squad they can wreck a lot of face. The command squad can take shields and power fists to make sure they aren't stuck long in close combat. Toss in a BA Priest on a bike to join the party then three biker Librarians from the Conclave... It's no joke.

Anyone who knows what their doing with orks or nids, regardless of power fists, will be able to keep them in combat. To many points in the unit.

Orks or nidz maybe. Bikes have the mobility to keep away.