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Back on topic, in the good old days of Dark Future and Adeptus Teenytechnicus, all new GW tabletop games were proudly emblazoned 3D Role-Play Game, to try and hit as many bases as possible.

But call it what you like, Age Of Sigmar is a game of tactical warfare. It is impossible not to class it as a wargame.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You will be surprised that miniature wargames have a longer, stronger history in the US than you knew.

TBH I'm not actually surprised at all, thanks to Jon Peterson's tremendous book on the gaming culture in the USA leading up to the advent of D&D and TSR. It's called "Playing at the World" and I'd highly recommend it!

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Just because GW calls its games tabletop games (which they have done for a very long time by the way) means absolutely nothing.

Well it might mean something to customers who have spent a lot less time thinking about wargaming than you or I, ones for whom the phrase "wargame" means essentially nothing or, at worst, a game that is boring, expensive, and difficult to get into. (All of which can certainly be hallmarks of wargaming, from certain perspectives.)

Honestly 'Age of Sigmar' is more along the lines of a board game at best in my opinion. It's more like one of those specialist games you play for fun that dies off within a year and maybe resurfaces again at some point like 'Space Hulk'.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Talys wrote:
A lot of people like it quite a bit.

Played it, didn't like it.

Warmachine has, or at least had, around 20-25 models a side in a standard game. Are you seriously telling me that is all that you would need to play AoS in a typical game? If you are that puts AoS very much in skirmish game territory yet for a skirmish game AoS rules are extremely shallow.

Add in the fact that WMH is frankly NOT swords and sorcery fantasy. I was looking forward to see what AoS brought as I needed to go back to WHFB (or something of the same genre) as a kind of palate cleanser from WMH.

Instead, we got... this.

Grimtuff, have you considered the upcoming Frostgrave skirmishy-RPGy-Morheimy miniatures game from Osprey? I am not too fond of Northstar's corresponding line of wizard miniatures but am thinking of using WHFB/AoS stuff in its place. It has a high fantasy feel to it, unlike the steampunkish WM/H or pseudo-historical grim fantasy of traditional WHFB.

 Manchu wrote:
Grimtuff, have you considered the upcoming Frostgrave skirmishy-RPGy-Morheimy miniatures game from Osprey? I am not too fond of Northstar's corresponding line of wizard miniatures but am thinking of using WHFB/AoS stuff in its place. It has a high fantasy feel to it, unlike the steampunkish WM/H or pseudo-historical grim fantasy of traditional WHFB.

I've peeked at it and was not thrilled with the minis, so I dismissed it. Might have to give it a second look.

"Welcome to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, a fantastical hobby of collecting, painting and tabletop wargaming like no other."

Introduction (pg. 3) of the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Primer

i think we can put this debate to rest now...

how each individual chooses to see the new system is up to them...
if you don't like the concept of no points, and are unwilling to adapt to the Warscroll format, that is your choice...
GW is trying something radically different, which has not been completely fleshed out yet...
one can choose to embrace the new system, or not...

one thing that i find interesting is all of the talk of pick-up games as if those are always played with strangers...
in my experience, as an outside observer of the gaming side of the hobby, i see a clique in every shop i visit...
i have been traveling the world for 25 years, and it takes all of two visits to a shop to realize that you see the same group of people hanging out, and about three visits to be considered a local...
i mean, how often do you guys play with complete strangers in your local shop???

cheers
jah

Pretty often, actually. As in, that's the only way I wargame at the moment, as I am stuck between like three cities generally. The only other way I would get games in, if I had time, would be by travelling to tournaments, but currently I can't manage that.

Feel free to ignore my experience to defend AOS though.

 jah-joshua wrote:

I mean, how often do you guys play with complete strangers in your local shop???

Rarely. How often do I organise a game by saying, for example "1750 of FoW next week?" often.

There's also a transport issue, I guess, if you have a really big collection. Because AoS is made to be played from collections rather than predetermined armies. So is everyone supposed to haul a sizable chunk of their miniatures collection to the LGS or their club? Or even their friend's place?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Talys wrote:
A lot of people like it quite a bit.

Played it, didn't like it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like WMH either, though I have 3 WMH armies (mostly for painting/collecting purposes). I was just pointing out that other people do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jah-joshua wrote:
"Welcome to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, a fantastical hobby of collecting, painting and tabletop wargaming like no other."

Introduction (pg. 3) of the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Primer

I stand corrected

I was going by what I'd generally read in White Dwarf, as well as the AoS "leaked" competitive addition still open on my screen, which reads, "Although Age of Sigmar has taken a unique
approach to Tabletop Gaming, this document represents a completely unofficial way to modify the rules into ones more conducive to competitive play."

Obviously, my memory is not very good


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
There's also a transport issue, I guess, if you have a really big collection. Because AoS is made to be played from collections rather than predetermined armies. So is everyone supposed to haul a sizable chunk of their miniatures collection to the LGS or their club? Or even their friend's place?

This is actually why our group mostly plays 40k at my home in the basement. There is a HUGE transport issue once you have Knights and other large models. Some of them are very delicate (at least, in transportation terms), and you can spend 2 hours choosing, packing, and unpacking your models. Then showing up at a destination, and finding that you forgot X model.

This isn't a common problem for "casual" players, but for people with large collections, it's infuriating to appear at a friend's house 20 minutes away to discover that you forgot a hero model that was on a list for this week.

How we do it is, everyone who games at my place can store stuff in either display cases or storage cases (safely, since it's always the same group, and we've known each other forever); people leave their large, difficult to transport units, and maybe some of their common units that they'll never use elsewhere anyways, and just take their characters and easily packable stuff that comprise their "common core".

Then when everyone is gone I secretly play with all those Riptides. Bwahahahahahah! (joking )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jah-joshua wrote:

one thing that i find interesting is all of the talk of pick-up games as if those are always played with strangers...
in my experience, as an outside observer of the gaming side of the hobby, i see a clique in every shop i visit...
i have been traveling the world for 25 years, and it takes all of two visits to a shop to realize that you see the same group of people hanging out, and about three visits to be considered a local...
i mean, how often do you guys play with complete strangers in your local shop???

When I was a teenager, we'd all go on game nights with whatever armies we had, and piece together players for 2 v2 or 2 v 1 or 1v1 by adding up points (approximately) for 40k. It wasn't a science, and the points were never precisely a match anyways. I know there are still groups like this, and most stores host some kind of game nights where folks are likely to meet strangers or regulars who like playing wargames.

But outside of that, I think pick-up games (where you go on a random day and just wait for someone else to bring an army) of 100+ model games are a myth in most independent stores. They're like Sasquatch sightings. I have seen, occasionally, people that always take a set of models in their car, and if they happen to bump into someone in a store who's done the same thing they might say, "do you want to play a game?". I don't like this idea at all, though, because of car break-ins.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Honestly 'Age of Sigmar' is more along the lines of a board game at best in my opinion. It's more like one of those specialist games you play for fun that dies off within a year and maybe resurfaces again at some point like 'Space Hulk'.

See, that's what I like about it.

I would consider it a scenario game more than a wargame, never intended to be a fair match of skill. In order for pick up games to work, players would need to communicate enough to find out if they have compatible degrees of "feth it" attitude. It doesn't work on the norms of yesterday, the assumptions of real wargames. It's something of an outside context tabletop game.

Or you can use wounds plus attacks divided by movement or something if you need points to play happy. Nothing wrong with that, except that it isn't supported by the game.

@Da Boss: why would i ignore your experience???
i was asking an honest question...
i am curious how often people play with complete strangers, because i have always seen that hobby shops seem to have tight sets of locals...

@Silent Puffin: fair enough, as FoW has points...
now you can play by using Warscrolls if you choose to jump into AoS...
if not, then i guess you will get a lot more games of FoW in...

personally, i think a lot of the doom and gloom TFG scenarios are a kneejerk reaction...
i have seen way less bad behavior in 30 years of being in this hobby than i could read in one day here...
that is not to say that bad behavior doesn't exist, or that anyone choosing not to jump into AoS is wrong...
saying this move by GW is objectively bad is a bit of a stretch, though, as it seems like a good amount of people are able to enjoy it so far...
i have a feeling that the world, the game, and the minis will be in a better place in a year, once we have seen how GW's future releases are going to shake out...
i like what i am seeing, so far, and it is exciting to have a new world to explore...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

@Silent Puffin: fair enough, as FoW has points...

Exactly, I can organise virtually any game with just a sentence and be relatively sure that I will have an equal game. With AoS on the other hand..........

 Manchu wrote:
There's also a transport issue, I guess, if you have a really big collection. Because AoS is made to be played from collections rather than predetermined armies. So is everyone supposed to haul a sizable chunk of their miniatures collection to the LGS or their club? Or even their friend's place?

When my friend and I were going to play, it went like this:
Him "Want to try AoS"
Me "Sure, how about saturday at 11"
Him "Sure"

That was the extent of the pre-planning. I grabbed a handful of my Brets - unit of knights (6), unit of errants (6), 20 archers, 16 M&A, standard bearer, general, paladin on foot, 5 mounted yeomen. Hardly my full collection, but a solid army as I used to play it.

When I showed up, he had a force of orks on the table - arrer boyz, huge unit of boys, 3 chariots, an ork boss, amd a giant (I migt be missing something else). He looked at our armies the felt his might be too strong because of the giant.

We played anyway, and had a blast. It worked well, there was enough rules crunch in the scrolls to make things a little different, the tactics were inteesting, the initiative threw a wrench in well prepared plans, etc. We hadn't played WHFB in 2 editions, so it wasn't like we were regulars at it. But it wasn't hard to "balance it by eye".

We 're also historicals players and most of our games don't have points values, or rely on historical OOBs for our forces.

Regardless, it has rekindled out interest in playing (15+ years with GW games, plus too many others), we're setting up a campaign, and going to play it regularly.

Oh, and I tried and dislike both Kings of War, and Warmachine. Just for completeness.

Also, as a last thought, AoS will allow us to pull out all of our old models, and play whatever we like, since we have all the warscrolls we need. If GW moves away from the aesthetic, won't bother us in the least. But we will be very interested in the campaign and scenario stuff that GW puts out.

re: Frostgrave, the minis are not required. You can use any mini for the game. Don't let that stop you. I'll probably get it, because I'm a rules junky, but it won't scratch my fantasy battles itch. AoS will. IMHO.

 Manchu wrote:
There's also a transport issue, I guess, if you have a really big collection. Because AoS is made to be played from collections rather than predetermined armies. So is everyone supposed to haul a sizable chunk of their miniatures collection to the LGS or their club? Or even their friend's place?

I do this today. I have my minis hardcased in Chessex storage, which stack into a gym bag along with my dice and rules. I could bring 400-500 infantry this way, a couple dozen Giants, or some mix in between. As it happens, this is the entirety of my Fantasy collection (200+ infantry + Monsters & cavalry) is portable this way.

However, really huge models like Wraithknights are a challenge, and I tend to bring only 1 or two of those at a time. For something vast like my Eldar or IoM forces, I might only bring whatever fraction of my collection piques my fancy.

Hm, how am I going to get 16 blood thirsters to the store? Perhaps we have discovered another balancing mechanic?

In response to the question about how often people play with strangers, in my experience at least, it depends how you define the word "stranger".

If you mean someone who I have literally never met before, then I don't play them all that often, but enough for it to not be considered negligible. There are people who come in rarely and hence I normally miss and people who are new to the club and/or the area and hence, the first time I play them, they're strangers, even if they do go on to become regulars. In these not-that-rare situations, the ability to be able to say "let's have a game of X points" as per the rules, is very useful.

However, even if the people I play most often are people who are regulars (or at least people who have been to the club/GW several times in the past), they're still not the type of person who I would sit down with and come up with some long-winded set of house rules to try and balance AoS. Outside of game time, I don't often speak to these people. Sure, we'd talk as we were watching another game or whilst we were packing up, but we certainly wouldn't go for a coffee to discuss potentially balancing methods for AoS, or even do the same sat painting at the club. Such activities I think are really reserved for close friends or family - of which I have precious few who are interested in wargaming, let alone AoS.

So what I'm saying is, even though I don't play with a complete stranger every time I play a game, I very rarely play with someone who I feel I could sit down with and come up with a set of house rules for a game.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

@Silent Puffin: fair enough, as FoW has points...

Exactly, I can organise virtually any game with just a sentence and be relatively sure that I will have an equal game. With AoS on the other hand..........

There is, however, no guarantee that a game will be fair or fun.

Flames of War is much easier to balance than a game like Age of Sigmar, or Warhammer 40k. Imagine in FoW, if you introduced Martian units with lasers, and the Germans had dirigibles that could drop concussion bombs and the Brits built giant robots that dwarfed the L'Arc de Triomphe you were trying to protect. Imagine if the largest model is literally so big that an infantry unit can climb through the visor (actually, one sits inside, in the model) --



Now obviously, the warlord titans aren't going to be common But smaller titans -- everything up to Castigators and Revenants -- are very common in 40k, and everything up to the size of Dragons and Nagash or Glotkin are quite common in Fantasy.

The difference is that some people look at the dragons and manifestations of deities on the same field of battle as peasants and goblins and go, "well, that's dumb, what's the point of a game like that?" while others, say, "OMG. That is so awesome. GIMME!"

Bring more models than you plan on using, decide on table size (4x4 is a good spot) from there you should be good to go. Remember, there is a chance your opponent will get two turns in a row without you getting to shoot or declare assaults. They could very well score any of the "kill something" sudden death objectives in that time. You do not want to try and overwhelm people with models, it can backfire HARD.

 jah-joshua wrote:
"Welcome to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, a fantastical hobby of collecting, painting and tabletop wargaming like no other."

Introduction (pg. 3) of the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Primer

Page 3... the intro... doesn't say this bro.

So anyways. My brother got me to try this with him... we've got a funny family. He loves GW stuff, I despise the company. I think Age of Sigmar is ridiculous, and the whole premise of the game is stupid. I played Chaos, he played Sigmar. The game play wasn't horrible, so I have to admit I've played worse. But it wasn't anything great, either.

Whatever you want to call it, it isn't a wargame. Not even close. You can't play out some vignette of a war... It's just a bunch of godly superheroes biffing it out and using magical powers.

But my brother has now convinced me that Age of Sigmar is a GOOD thing. One thing I despise about so-called "casual" players is that there is endless whining if they lose to "TFG" or whatever. Like, they refuse to learn to play the f***ing game, and then want to rage quit when they lose. So now at last there's a game for them, and they can leave serious wargamers to other games. It's great: anyone who likes Age of Sigmar I'll know I never want to play with. "Do you like Sigmar?" "Yes" (scratch off of list). That simple.

Yes, everyone is entitled to play their game, however dumb it might be.

But WARGAMING is a serious thing. A wargame REQUIRES competitive play (playing to win) and should involve it in every step from preparation to victory or defeat. If you can't prepare your army right, you deserve to LOSE. I don't play to make my opponent feel good... I think this is a ridiculous concept, but ok, if that's your thing, go for it. I want them to run away with their tail tucked between their legs because they got butthurt so bad... then come again another day to have another go at me. I feel great when I smash someone to bits and table them. I love when they feel hopelessness and despair. I feel angry with myself for being an idiot if I get tabled, but I focus that on being constructive and figure out what I need to do to win the next round.

So anyways good on GW for making a game for the people that I didn't want to play with anyways.

Good lord, lol.

Hey Marlov, wondering what game your into? Its probably the one for people that I didn't want to play with anyways.

@Dakkamite - Exalted

I dunno whether to laugh or cry Marlov's post was kind of funny. In a rather terrible and offensive way, but funny nonetheless.

Wouldn't want to go to a family get-together LOL.

@Marlov: i was quoting from the digital W:AoS Primer that is free to download on iBooks right now...

cheers
jah

So apparently Marlov is TFG.

For me i'm just insulted there are no points values. It's like instead of weighing something on a scale you guess somebody's weight or same goes for somebody's age. Sure you might get an estimate but it's not always accurate esp. for really big things. I mean imagine if people were like, "Instead of carbon dating this we're just gonna eyeball it and guess how old this fossilized tree is."

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So apparently Marlov is TFG.

For me i'm just insulted there are no points values. It's like instead of weighing something on a scale you guess somebody's weight or same goes for somebody's age. Sure you might get an estimate but it's not always accurate esp. for really big things. I mean imagine if people were like, "Instead of carbon dating this we're just gonna eyeball it and guess how old this fossilized tree is."

To be fair, GW's points were never really more of an eye ball anyways

Rihgu wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So apparently Marlov is TFG.

For me i'm just insulted there are no points values. It's like instead of weighing something on a scale you guess somebody's weight or same goes for somebody's age. Sure you might get an estimate but it's not always accurate esp. for really big things. I mean imagine if people were like, "Instead of carbon dating this we're just gonna eyeball it and guess how old this fossilized tree is."

To be fair, GW's points were never really more of an eye ball anyways

Yes, but it at least made for a baseline that everyone could use for pick-up games and organized play. Part of the value many people were getting from the miniatures came with the game built around them. Kudos to GW for making the rules free, it's just the loss of points eliminates the ability to have that baseline. It doesn't stop friend groups from doing as they like...but then, they never needed help in the first place- they can do whatever they want! It's the game's ubiquity that is coming under threat from the lack of balance.

I've been giving WH-AOS some thought and review over the last week. I think the miniatures are great as GW miniatures tend to be, and the box set is a reasonable/good price. The future releases look like they might be plenty expensive, so I'll wait to see if GW actually learned their lesson or just came in with the boxset-bait on this one. The lore I've actually come to terms with- I like the idea of fighting on the Chaotic plains and the overall worsened nature of things. Sigmarines are something I'm getting used to- I just read that the game is going to become overly reliant on the power armor faction, and we'll see five variants of the same damn army.

The biggest issue I have obviously is the lack of points. Perhaps GW will hear the protests of their customers and actually do something helpful for once, but I'm not holding my breath. My original hope was that they'd try something in the vein of Blizzard and adjust points every six months or so in a living rule book.

So far I give it a B-. Has some good concepts, was a significant change, but still seems to have the same issues GW has been lugging around these past ten years, albeit in a smaller package.

Wow, that guy has something to prove. With tiny plastic army men and random dice rolls...

Glad to hear your idea of a good time is to make sure your oponnent doesn't.

 Manchu wrote:
Hm, how am I going to get 16 blood thirsters to the store? Perhaps we have discovered another balancing mechanic?

Plus....

How are you going to buy 16 bloodthisters in the first place without the Mrs kicking you in the watsits in the first place.

I'm sure GW never banked on that!