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For what is is worth, I cannot see regular Sisters being justified as anything other than S3/T3, and I think even I3 is hard to push beyond. Regular humans in power armour are going to be sluggish compared to Space Marines, no matter how skillfull/experienced they are. I see I4 on regular humans being more of an unarmoured elite assassin kind of character.

I am speaking in terms of base stats, however. A Priest's prayer or Sister's Act of Faith that modifies these stat lines? Yeah, I could accept that! In the case of Initiative, however, I fail to see the justification. Sisters are a shooty army, not assaulty, so they do not need rules that make them second-rate Tactical Marines in assault. BS4 across the board! They are highly trained far beyond what the regular guardsman grunts are. BS5 could perhaps be justified on a Celestian or (more likely) Canoness, but that is pushing the limits. Seraphim are dual wielding Pistols, so firing them at BS4 is already a super human effort!

With other stats, as I said they are not a close combat army, so WS3 for regular Sisters and WS4 only on super elites (Seraphim and Celestians). Maybe even WS5 on a Canoness or Living Saint, but that is pushing it. I think ALL Battle Sisters (even Sisters Superior) should be A1, with only Seraphim (and *maybe* Celestians) being A2. A Canoness could perhaps be argued for A3, and a Living Saint A3 or A4.

I think the current Leadership values are good. Ld8 on a regular Sister, Ld9 on a Sister Superior and Ld10 on a Canoness. Celestians and Seraphim should probably all be Ld9 (as they are), given their elite status and likelihood of being as experienced and high-ranking as any Sister Superior. The Sisters are a disciplined unit like any of the elite forces in the game, and their fanaticism should make them very willing martyrs for their cause. Space Marines may happily withdraw for tactical advantage, but Sister should willingly throw themselves on the heretic's blade to buy time for others to ready the counter offensive.

I just want to see plastic models...

I really can't see any Sisters being more than S3 T3 I3 - they're still regular human women. WS3 BS4 is also something of a gift.

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 A1 I3 Sv3+ -- Sisters are blessed with an excellent profile for an ordinary human.

 Elric of Grans wrote:
For what is is worth, I cannot see regular Sisters being justified as anything other than S3/T3, and I think even I3 is hard to push beyond. Regular humans in power armour are going to be sluggish compared to Space Marines, no matter how skillfull/experienced they are.

I think you're overselling how clumsy power armor is. Even without the black carapace, humans can be quite nimble within power armor with the proper training and experience. Hell, traditionally (IE, pre-fifth edition) Celestians had effectively more skill in melee combat than the common Astartes (hitting more often, though not as hard), and Seraphim have always been more nimble than Assault Marines.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
women

There's no difference between human males or human females in the stats, nor should there be, so stop acting like it matters. You keep bringing this up as if it should be reflected in the stats, which is ticking me off.

Elric - the Canoness is WS/BS 5. :p

Celestians are in a really weird place in the game (as opposed to usually just being in a really weird place in the codex), since for some reason they have two attacks base, where normally an equivalent (elite 'close combat' unit) would have one attack and two close combat weapons for the same net effect... which implies that they're some of the fastest humans alive (only heroes like squad leaders usually get two attacks), but they're still only I3 in this book.

The two facts just don't jive together. Are they fast or not? Gah.

Bring back the days when they were Seraphim with a weapon swap, please...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Elric - the Canoness is WS/BS 5. :p

Celestians are in a really weird place in the game (as opposed to usually just being in a really weird place in the codex), since for some reason they have two attacks base, where normally an equivalent (elite 'close combat' unit) would have one attack and two close combat weapons for the same net effect... which implies that they're some of the fastest humans alive (only heroes like squad leaders usually get two attacks), but they're still only I3 in this book.

The two facts just don't jive together. Are they fast or not? Gah.

Bring back the days when they were Seraphim with a weapon swap, please...

Because they come from a Jive World.

I always viewed the Living Saint as a "Good Daemon" (literally an angel) brought into being by the collective beliefs of whatever Imperial servants are around at the time, a warp-gestalt of the emotion of zealotry, if you will.

I figured she was a daemon with a human form (hence human physical stats like STR 3 T 3 and daemon mental/skill stats such as WS 7 BS7 I7 A5).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I always viewed the Living Saint as a "Good Daemon" (literally an angel) brought into being by the collective beliefs of whatever Imperial servants are around at the time, a warp-gestalt of the emotion of zealotry, if you will.

I figured she was a daemon with a human form (hence human physical stats like STR 3 T 3 and daemon mental/skill stats such as WS 7 BS7 I7 A5).

Ive largely seen it similarly. The Living Saint isnt human anymore. Im not sure what she is exactly but shes gone beyond human. Thus why her stats ook like a Mini Daemon Prince

 deviantduck wrote:


Because they come from a Jive World.

Jive being an evolution of jibe, meaning 'fit' or 'agree'.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I always viewed the Living Saint as a "Good Daemon" (literally an angel) brought into being by the collective beliefs of whatever Imperial servants are around at the time, a warp-gestalt of the emotion of zealotry, if you will.

I figured she was a daemon with a human form (hence human physical stats like STR 3 T 3 and daemon mental/skill stats such as WS 7 BS7 I7 A5).

Ive largely seen it similarly. The Living Saint isnt human anymore. Im not sure what she is exactly but shes gone beyond human. Thus why her stats ook like a Mini Daemon Prince

Agreed. She basically is a posi-daemon princess. Was enough of a BAMF in life for the Emprah to smile upon her, then ascended her to a non-human level of existence wherein she's semi-unkillable. The largley human aesthetic is due to the fact that human minds formed her, and human minds put an emphasis on the human form (as opposed to the more shoggothy appearances of some other daemons which are basically made of whichever resonant shapes a chaos god can dredge up that are semi-compatible with euclidian geometry).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


Because they come from a Jive World.

Jive being an evolution of jibe, meaning 'fit' or 'agree'.

oh, i know. i was being punny.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I always viewed the Living Saint as a "Good Daemon" (literally an angel) brought into being by the collective beliefs of whatever Imperial servants are around at the time, a warp-gestalt of the emotion of zealotry, if you will.

I figured she was a daemon with a human form (hence human physical stats like STR 3 T 3 and daemon mental/skill stats such as WS 7 BS7 I7 A5).

Ive largely seen it similarly. The Living Saint isnt human anymore. Im not sure what she is exactly but shes gone beyond human. Thus why her stats ook like a Mini Daemon Prince

Agreed. She basically is a posi-daemon princess.

I'm agreed that the Living Saint should be semi-Daemonic, basically akin to a Daemon Prince. I would not be opposed to seeing her bumped up to S3(6) T4 A6 and/or 2+/3++.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I always viewed the Living Saint as a "Good Daemon" (literally an angel) brought into being by the collective beliefs of whatever Imperial servants are around at the time, a warp-gestalt of the emotion of zealotry, if you will.

I figured she was a daemon with a human form (hence human physical stats like STR 3 T 3 and daemon mental/skill stats such as WS 7 BS7 I7 A5).

Ive largely seen it similarly. The Living Saint isnt human anymore. Im not sure what she is exactly but shes gone beyond human. Thus why her stats ook like a Mini Daemon Prince

Agreed. She basically is a posi-daemon princess.

I'm agreed that the Living Saint should be semi-Daemonic, basically akin to a Daemon Prince. I would not be opposed to seeing her bumped up to S3(6) T4 A6 and/or 2+/3++.

Id be fine with T 4, as he Sword makes her Str 5, and given Eternal Warrior. Seriously giver her that!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


Because they come from a Jive World.

Jive being an evolution of jibe, meaning 'fit' or 'agree'.

It's ok, Canoness... I speak Jive.

I only know that quote from AMV Hell 3.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
for some reason they have two attacks base, where normally an equivalent (elite 'close combat' unit) would have one attack and two close combat weapons for the same net effect... which implies that they're some of the fastest humans alive (only heroes like squad leaders usually get two attacks), but they're still only I3 in this book.

The two facts just don't jive together. Are they fast or not? Gah.
...

but, how if initiative has something to do with speed would attacks have something to do with speed? I think what jive you want comes from attacks not having anything to do with speed. Initiative has to do with speed. It's ok for them to be different, because they are different. They are different things. One has to do with speed. The other one, attacks, doesn't have anything to do with speed. They are different values because they are different things. Attacks don't have to be speed.

I think Celestians obviously have two attacks and initiative three. Initiative is mostly a racial characteristic.

I also think that if they get drop pods, celsestians are the only unit that could possibly use drop pods as dedicated transports. What happened in the strike force? Well, it's because sisters don't have a navy, and they don't have drop pods. The ship with drop pods have to come from an Inquisitor, from a Lord Militant, from some other organization. If they want Sisters, it's not for a mass infantry landing, it's for a special operation that Celsestians would perform.

I also think that means it should be a formation with many squads of celestians, and extra, empty drop pods to act as locator beacons. That's what is different about this army's pods.

As a reference to way up thread, I definitely think most sisters' armor should be 4+, but because I think most power armor in general should be 4+.

When it comes to flyers, I think flyers imply that there is a big landing pad somewhere with a huge ground crew of technicians, and I'm much more interested most orders having no personnel other than power armored, combatant sisters who have taken or will take vows and who fight in power armor and with bolters.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
for some reason they have two attacks base, where normally an equivalent (elite 'close combat' unit) would have one attack and two close combat weapons for the same net effect... which implies that they're some of the fastest humans alive (only heroes like squad leaders usually get two attacks), but they're still only I3 in this book.

The two facts just don't jive together. Are they fast or not? Gah.
...

but, how if initiative has something to do with speed would attacks have something to do with speed? I think what jive you want comes from attacks not having anything to do with speed. Initiative has to do with speed. It's ok for them to be different, because they are different. They are different things. One has to do with speed. The other one, attacks, doesn't have anything to do with speed. They are different values because they are different things. Attacks don't have to be speed.

I think Celestians obviously have two attacks and initiative three. Initiative is mostly a racial characteristic.

I also think that if they get drop pods, celsestians are the only unit that could possibly use drop pods as dedicated transports. What happened in the strike force? Well, it's because sisters don't have a navy, and they don't have drop pods. The ship with drop pods have to come from an Inquisitor, from a Lord Militant, from some other organization. If they want Sisters, it's not for a mass infantry landing, it's for a special operation that Celsestians would perform.

I also think that means it should be a formation with many squads of celestians, and extra, empty drop pods to act as locator beacons. That's what is different about this army's pods.

As a reference to way up thread, I definitely think most sisters' armor should be 4+, but because I think most power armor in general should be 4+.

When it comes to flyers, I think flyers imply that there is a big landing pad somewhere with a huge ground crew of technicians, and I'm much more interested most orders having no personnel other than power armored, combatant sisters who have taken or will take vows and who fight in power armor and with bolters.

The Sororitas have their own fleet of ships and their own drop pods according to the older official fluff

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I only know that quote from AMV Hell 3.

The original:

People seem to think that power armor will slow people down, and not really add any strength. I'm disagreeing based on the following existing in 2007:

Y2k+ tech doesn't apply, as the Imperium is firmly mired in the 1930s and 1940s.

And later. The concept of Power Armor didn't come around until Heinlein's Starship Troopers in the 50s... wherein it makes you faster and stronger and gives you rocket-boots and such.

It does make you a bulkier target, of course, though in the case of Astartes, this is mitigated by the Black Carapace. However, Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau wore a set of skin-tight power armor under his other clothes, so it's very, very much past the 30s and 40s.

If we're going back to Obi-Wan Sherlock, does that mean we're undoing all of the things that Sisters got since RT was published?

I'm simply pointing out that, in the 40K setting, Power Armor (and other tech) has far exceeded anything conceived or based in the tech of the 1930s and 40s, which is what you claimed.

This is quite obvious with the bolters having, once-upon-a-time, been claimed to be gyrojet weapons (a technology that did not exist until the 1970s), along with such things as ICBMs (1950s), stuff like cloning and genetic/bioware enhancement, (all 1950s and later sci-fi in the methods presented).

Is there a filter where instead of ignoring a person, I can just replace all of their posts with 'NERT! NERT! NERT'!?

If there isn't, there should be.

 Paimon wrote:
Is there a filter where instead of ignoring a person, I can just replace all of their posts with 'NERT! NERT! NERT'!?

If there isn't, there should be.

Exalted for making me laugh before my first cup of tea in the morning.

 Melissia wrote:
Assuming we get a Sisters of Battle, Adepta Sororitas, or Adeptus Ministorum codex (IE, not deleted or merged), in what direction would you prefer to see Sisters taken?

I have always thought of Sisters as a highly competent military-religious force, akin to the Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller. Over the years, I've seen that others have thought of them as fighting closer to crazed berserkers, others prefer to focus on the union between Sisters and Inquisition or Sisters and Ecclesiarchy, adding in a sort of "freak show army" appeal. Some want to see Sisters changed to become more of a horde army (a couple people even advocating that they should los their 3+ save for some reason), while others want to see them get stronger and more elite, and others want to try to carefully maintain the current balance. The level of how specialized they are, vs how much they should be able to adapt to different situations. How much variety they should have, vs how much homogeneity they should have.

If you were to advise on writing their codex, how would you advocate it be done?

I realize I'm late to this party, but it looks like a fun party so I'm going to ignore that it is winding down and jump right in.

If I were designing the codex, I would add in Ecclesiarchy units. I picture the Sisters as an elite, competent religious force in service to a venal, somewhat corrupt and far more faithless Church organization. As such, I would like to add units in somewhat like the Inquisition, but without psykers and with more of a "these are dangerous lunatics" feel. A kind of crazed militia unit in troops, priests and confessors, and inquisition style units with arco-flagellants, cultists, shackled witches (psykers) and daemonhosts and such, with Ecclesiarchy units lacking faith entirely, at least in the sense SoB have it. A good amount of anti-psyker and anti-daemon wargear in here.

As to the SoB themselves I think they are largely effective. Repentia need their base FNP back, Penitent Engines need a way to move faster - crusader maybe, or an AoF that gives fleet. If I were making new units I would probably mess around with some slightly medieval style units as well - Sisters cavalry mounted on well armored/shielded horses with power lances add an element of stubborn chivalry and would be a nod to their devotion to the past and ceremony; some kind of Sisters cc unit that are designed more to pin a unit in place (like Celestians of old were used) than slaughtering them outright (That is the job of Repentia); maybe using storm shields and unique cc weapons with a bonus against psykers and daemons. Or jsut give celestians the option to better fill that durable but less killy cc niche. Keep shield of faith as is. They need a flier - doesn't need to be the best out there, but they need one. I'd give it an option for something akin to those bombs GK had that cause a perils on any hit psyker. A Repressor would be nice, an assault vehicle would be even nicer.

I am inclined to want to see AoF as something more akin to divine intervention than a planned tactic - I'd probably play around with making them go off on a random roll, each unit rolls and get's their faith activated on a roll of 6 per turn. The usual modifiers - +1 if the unit is wounded, +1 with a character, +1 if a character with the marty rule dies. Play with the power levels and modifiers on the acts based on how strong they turn out, compared to the psychic phase most armies have on hand. Let them get one act off on a leadership roll instead if they have a Simulacrum. I do like each unit having it's own unique AOF, it makes their approach to war and faith unique.

All of which probably says more about how I see the army and what I would do to make it have a unique feel than about what works best tactically - but that's the route my thinking on Sisters tends to go.

This is perhaps a little over-the-top, but I took a closer look at what options each faction has available. Obviously, every faction is different, and some are more extreme than others (eg Guard have lots of Tanks, Tyranids have no Transports, etc). There are some general trends however that can be observed.

For Infantry, most factions have 4-8 basic Infantry units and 2-4 others with special rules (eg Jump, Scout, etc). Sisters fall within this, but there are a couple of core places for improvement. Firstly, Sisters are the only faction without a choice between two or more Troops. Frateris Militia have been repeatedly cited as something Sisters need and there is no question they would perfectly fill this gap. Secondly, the Elite Infantry options (Celestians and Repentia) are really letting the Sisters down. Celestians need to be given a niche to fill, while Repentia need to be able to actually fill their niche. Fixing these two would give Sisters the solid core they need.

Now, I do not think there is a unifying term for these, but most factions have 2-4 non-Infantry biological units (eg Bikes, Beasts, Monstrous Creatures, etc). Sisters are the only faction to not have a single one of these! Many options would make little-to-no sense for the Sisters (eg Artillery, Jetbikes), but that does not mean there is no room for these. It has already been suggested that Arco-Flagellants should be Beasts, which would fit their role well and help them to work as a light assault unit. While the core rules of 40K include Chariots, only Daemons actually have them. I could easily see a Priest on a Chariot. There could also be an Ecclesiarchy unit that is classified as a Monstrous Creature, though I think that is beginning to push the limits of realistic. Either way, a couple of options here (probably both Ecclesiarchy rather than Sisters) would help give the faction more options and be a little more interesting.

Vehicles also follow general trends. Most factions have 2-4 transport options; give us plastic Repressors and I think most Sisters players would be happy! Most factions have two fliers, while Sisters have none. This is clearly a significant gap! There could be a Flying Transport, a fighter or a bomber. Of those three, I think a fighter is perhaps the least appropriate for the faction. Most factions then have 3-5 other vehicles (Tanks, Skimmers, Walkers, etc). Sisters already have the Exorcist and the Penitent Engine. The Penitent Engine needs a bit of work to be able to fulfil its role, but the core concept is fine and just needs tweaking. I think the Sisters need one or two alternatives to the Exorcist: they could be based on the same concepts (eg Rhino chassis), but to fill extra roles. Firstly, there needs to be a Skyfire option: this is just a given under seventh edition! Secondly, I would like to see something that fires either a Large Blast or multiple Small Blasts, as Sisters currently lack any form of long-ranged anti-infantry.

Currently, Sisters have the least unit options in their book. Ignoring HQs, they have four less than the next worst faction (Grey Knights) and 12 less than the average number (Dark Eldar and Tau are the other factions will below-average numbers of units). When you look at how Grey Knights and Dark Eldar are still both well behind, it seems unlikely Sisters could catch up in a single edition, but five or six new units would at least give them some options and fill in a few key gaps in their Codex.

As a few other members have mentioned, Frateris Militia are certainly something that should see a place in a codex that doesn't revolve solely around the Sororitas only.

What I'd ask is, what would your idea of the Frateris Militia be other than 'Guardsmen Lite'?

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
As a few other members have mentioned, Frateris Militia are certainly something that should see a place in a codex that doesn't revolve solely around the Sororitas only.

What I'd ask is, what would your idea of the Frateris Militia be other than 'Guardsmen Lite'?

I think they should be like chaos cultists that get buffs based on who is near them. X if with a priest, Y if near a Sister, Z if with/near...... They are the mob. Usless and directionless when alone, but can be wipped up into a fever pitch when directed by someone else.

Why does no one count the avenger strike fighter?