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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





If a player with an OP army can be told in essence to buy something else or quit playing, then he should be able to suggest the same to the player with the underperforming army. I see a double standard on that though because when someone suggests "upgrade your army" suddenly getting new stuff isn't the right answer.

--

Someone said something to the effect of some Eldar players think they are better players than they are because their army is easy. This may be true to sone extent but I can say that back in 4th/5th when I played Eldar regularly, I also got a dark Eldar army. At the time their codex was one of the most challenging and outdated. I didn't notice a significant difference between how I did with the two armies. It is also true I think that players with weaker armies can in some (not all) cases blame their army or their opponent's and use that as an excuse to not get better. I'm not saying this is true of everyone with an underpowered army, or with every army. For some there may be no real options. But there is a middle ground where the problem is more than just the quality of the two codexes.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

It's time for me to one again degrade the quality of the thread at large with my troll posts. Fortunately, this thread wasn't going anywhere anyway, so it doesn't matter. Let's see if I can take up a whole page this time!
Makumba wrote:
 TheNewBlood wrote:
ack and I see how much my army cost me. breathing does not help. In fact I think I had real fun with it for around more then a year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense a hint of sarcasm in your post.

So an Eldar player having fun is wrong and bad because that army is so OP no other army has any effective counters? This makes him "WAAC" and "TFG"? Meanwhile the IG player, having no effective units in 7th edition whatsoever, is in the right for refusing to play against Eldar?

No sarcasm. Fun is subjective. Some people like to be whiped, now talk with such person and tell him that getting whiped is bad or unfun to the extrem. I was talkin aboug expiriance of a group. Eldar players were top tier since the begining of the game. They were , at worse, good. It didn't matter if an edition was bloated with rules or streamlined, they were always like that. So people playing them new and old players always had fun with the army. They didn't have to deal, on a scale of other faction players, with stuff like spending 600$ on stuff that is borderline unplayable in a few months, and even if they did, they still could jump to the new good build. There is no wasted money, no wins making the game unfun for them. In fact there is also feeling of achivment. You can win tournaments with them and play against the best armies or play with a lower tier armiy and still win. That is fun.. for the eldar player. Eldar don't have to worry about game mechanics, theirs are always the best. Edition change nerfing this or that unit doesn't bother them, because either they can replace the falcon with a serpent, or the new rule won't hinder them at all or very little. For other factions it is never so, and not across so many editions.
So playing eldar puts one in a minds set, where one constantly thinks what crap are other people talking about the game. I mean here they are having fun, playing armies that are maxed out or not maxed out, and everything works. For an eldar player there is no TFG or WAAC, because there is almost never such things. In their codex. Well WK can be killed, what is wrong with swooping hawks they die like flies, those reaper I took are not used in any tournament list, ergo they are weak, why are you having problems with me taking them etc.

As the refusing games question, we don't do that. We do drop games turn 2-3, and in super rare occasions turn , but I can't remember not playing anyway. Besides If I wouldn't play against eldar I would lose 2 out 3 people I play most offten.

As far as history goes, I only joined halfway through 6th edition, so I have no firsthand knowledge about past editions. However, from what I've read here and elsewhere and been told by veteran players at my FLGS, earlier editions had it just as bad. There was a time when Blood Angels ruled the galaxy through consolidating into combat, Grey Knights were the absolute pinnacle of OP cheese, Imperial Guard could stomp you so bad you'd want to quit playing 40k altogether, and Eldar were mediocre in 5th edition. So I don't think you can claim that Eldar have been dominant for every edition. They may have been a solid army, but there were others that clearly dominated the game.

Everyone has to retool their army when a new codex or edition comes out. I had to make several changes to my army when 7th edition dropped, and the new codex set me back for a couple months while I built my Warhost. The reason Eldar appear to have it easier is because their codex has such great internal balance that they can easily adapt their tactics by changing a couple units. In an ideal world, every army would have the same level of internal balance as Eldar.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Dman, I don't think anyone has said that the status quo is fine.

They are seeking to balance everything, and the fact that they missed some things is attributable to human error rather than some anti-Eldar, pro-Thunderdome conspiracy.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! He'll catch on! You know the punishment for betraying our secrets...
Dman137 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Ignatius wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
Didn't want to quote the post because it's already long enough but for that person wondering I got perfect sportsmenship scores in doubles and singles. And someone comment saying that competitive players have there army's painted for them or just have primed models and what not, well I paint my own models and took home best appearance (judges choice) so yeah. I no that eldar have there strong builds but there are counters to eldar and good generals no how to play against them. But when you implement house rules it's like giving the eldar players a double nerf, people already know how to beat them and now they have rules in place to help them even further. If events want to nerf eldar that's fine but they need to look at all the other army's and what they can do and nerf them (or the rules) so that everyone is back on the same playing field.


"I am an awesome sportsman, look at my sportsmanship scores!" doesn't come across as sportsmanlike as you seem to think it does.
If you act at all at a tournament like I've seen you act on dakka, I have a hard time believing you about it.
as soon as the event results are up I'll be more then happy to post up the picture


It's very clear by this response that you missed the point entirely.


He seems to be impenetrable.


You all do realize you were the ones who asked about his sportsmanship score correct? Maybe you didn't specifically but you in a collective sense. You then go on to attack him for defending himself.

Dman, it's not so much what you are saying as how you are saying it. I've yet to really see anything like a coherent, thoughtful argument to your claims of Eldar average-ness, yet act as if you have already won the debate.

Have you ever played Militarum Tempestus? And I mean with the army. It's not easy. One mistake and you have suddenly lost the game and any hope of winning. Some armies are just inherently strong, and others are inherently weak. It's unfortunate but that' how this game works. Some players face an uphill battle the entire game while others point at things and roll dice until they win. In the current "era" of the game, one of those inherently strong armies is Eldar (and it has been for a long time, but that's not important). Recognizing that you have it good doesn't mean you can't claim to be a good general as you seem to suggest.

I also agree with you regarding the attitude of some players about the matchups they get. I don't think I've ever declined a game based on someone else's army. There is way too much complaining going on today, which I'll add, you have managed to achieve just by making this thread.

I've been playing 40k for about 15, and in ever edition of the game I have had many different army's (just not sisters because I'm not spending that much on metal lol) people keep saying that if you play eldar your not a good general and I think that's wrong every army has its own style of play and if you know how to build a well structured army list then your already a good general, tactics start right when your writing your list. So people can say what they want but at the end of the day if you play with a army that isent really that good in the current meta then you can't blame eldar or others or nerf them so that your special army doesn't get beat up, adapt to the current meta, but and paint a new army (isn't this a hobby where we buy,paint and play) if your still usin your 4-5th or some people even 3ed army's then I don't feel bad for you. Either get with the times or just stop complaning.

This whole thread is about events nerf eldar but let other cheesy army's fly under the radar. You want a balanced game.? Then balance everything.


I'm sorry, but this is the absolute pinnacle of 40k elitism right here. Effectively, all you're demanding of everyone else is to suck it up, 'pay-to-win', 'L2P' & 'git gud.'
Your attitude is no different to that of the equally repulsive 'Fluff at all Costs' players who decry anything that can kill one of their precious little Muhreens as OP/broken.

Tournament players who believe in only ever fielding the most optimised & powerful combinations need to accept that while your kind of fun is all well and good, it is in fact very much among the minority of players in this hobby.
At our old GW store for example, the hyper competitive players who took over the 40k gaming nights through their 'winning is the only point of the game' mentality and only ever fielding the most obnoxious power lists, caused our 40k nights to dwindle down to just those same 4-6 guys. Once the staff finally put their foot down and told them off for driving away business and sent them packing however, the 40k nights ballooned to the point that we needed 3 nights/week just ensure everyone would get a chance to play!

so they told off players because they play competitively and basically made them not want to come back to the store, so you drove sales away either way lol you think GW wants people that just don't buy anything new and just play with there old stuff, sorry to burst your bubble but it's people like you that are the reason GW has no growth. I buy 1000$ dollar army's at a time, usually 3 or 4 army's a year not to meantion all the other stuff I pic up, and I'm a competitive player and guess what GW would never get rid of me because I'm a real hobbyist

If you want to turn people against you, Dman137, you're doing an excellent job. I'm pretty sure what little sympathy I had for you dried up when you told people to buy new armies if their old ones weren't competitive anymore.

Yeah, this is a game and hobby about collecting, painting, and playing with plastic/resin/metal toy soldiers. Thing is, people don't just do it for the sake of winning; they do it for the enjoyment of painting cool models or playing out battles from a massive collection of history and backstory. Is it alright to play at a highly competitive level? Sure, but not if you denigrate the ways that other people have fun with the hobby.

Most people can't afford to drop $1000 on a new army. Heck, I've been saving up for a $100 purchase, which is big by my standards. Warhamer 40k has a surprisingly long life once you get a decent-sized collection of models. If people assembled and painted their models back in 3rd or 4th edition, why shouldn't they still be able to use some of those same models with some necessary changes to loadouts or unit sizes? Telling people to "deal with it" just makes you come off as an insensitive jerk who doesn't respect other people's time and effort put into their army.

Was kicking some highly competitive players out a store a bad move? Yeah, it sucks. But if your'e letting a minority of people spoil a majority of players' fun (and not providing any sopport to the establishment that provides playing space), then it's the lesser of two evils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If a player with an OP army can be told in essence to buy something else or quit playing, then he should be able to suggest the same to the player with the underperforming army. I see a double standard on that though because when someone suggests "upgrade your army" suddenly getting new stuff isn't the right answer.

--

Someone said something to the effect of some Eldar players think they are better players than they are because their army is easy. This may be true to sone extent but I can say that back in 4th/5th when I played Eldar regularly, I also got a dark Eldar army. At the time their codex was one of the most challenging and outdated. I didn't notice a significant difference between how I did with the two armies. It is also true I think that players with weaker armies can in some (not all) cases blame their army or their opponent's and use that as an excuse to not get better. I'm not saying this is true of everyone with an underpowered army, or with every army. For some there may be no real options. But there is a middle ground where the problem is more than just the quality of the two codexes.

Here's the thing: as Ravenous D and Dman137 so politely pointed out, most people do not play at a highly competitive level. Depending on the local scene/meta, most people just play casually at their FLGS or some other suitable space. Most competitive players probably have some models that fell out of the category of "tournament optimal". I'd say its a lot easier to ask the most competitive players to tone down their lists than to get the majority of players to throw out what they've got and get tournament-level armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/22 15:38:19


~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

@ Thenewblood - The Imperial Guard have never, on their own, been very powerful. The dreaded Leafblower list was in actual fact created by allying the Guard with the Inquisition and abusing several abilities gained from said Inquisition to boost the otherwise mediocre Imperial Guard units. It was also extremely points heavy - to avoid the worst of it all you had to do was play at sub 2.5K points and if you wanted it gone all together then all you had to do was avoid 2K and above games.


Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 TheNewBlood wrote:
It's time for me to one again degrade the quality of the thread at large with my troll posts. Fortunately, this thread wasn't going anywhere anyway, so it doesn't matter. Let's see if I can take up a whole page this time!


Sarcasm? I'm not seeing trolling in this post.


Here's the thing: as Ravenous D and Dman137 so politely pointed out, most people do not play at a highly competitive level. Depending on the local scene/meta, most people just play casually at their FLGS or some other suitable space. Most competitive players probably have some models that fell out of the category of "tournament optimal". I'd say its a lot easier to ask the most competitive players to tone down their lists than to get the majority of players to throw out what they've got and get tournament-level armies.


Some Eldar players are these competitive tournament types, but not all are. There are Saim Hann guys that have never had a strong army to play with until now who finally are getting a shot at being really good who get swept up in Eldar hate and envy even though they've struggled for 25 years with a suboptimal army. There are Biel-Tann guys who had Serpents before sixth who suddenly were told to shelve them because they were too strong in sixth. Some Eldar players are in the same position as everyone else as far as having a limited collection and long periods of mediocrity with their particular models. The expectation though seems to be they have to get new stuff cause it's not fair, but no one else should have to get new stuff. Double standard.

There are also new Eldar players who don't have a clue about the game, spend a bunch of money on the cool bikes then have to listen to people whine at them and tell them to get a new army. They may even lose a lot due to being new and have a real hard time comprehending the hate. They may be in the same spot as the guy with the underpowered army that can't really get new stuff.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op
do you have any DPs or hell drakes.? 2-3 hell drakes walk right tru a eldar army. I've seen it and I've done it. People can play with whatever models they have know one cares, but you can't sit there and complain about army's that are currently out beating you or that your army is no good, sorry your snowflake sucks if you want that to change then buy some new units, maybe try a different army. Like Jesus if your not going to support the hobby then why are you even in it.? I'm sorry but if you're still using the same army for the last 8-10 years and haven't changed a thing about it then I don't feel bad for you. Get some new stuff, support the hobby, this company dosent run on hopes and dreams, yes it's a bit expensive now but sill I'd assume we all have a job that pays us, put some aside and buy some you do t want to buy anything new then don't complain about army's being OP and your special snowflake isent any good, don't sit there and wait for your codex to get a update, update your army selection regardless if it's for fun game or competitive games. Why should any one have to tone down there army just because your army sucks (according to you) CSM don't suck and there are plenty of good list out there.
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

So I have to run daemon princes and he'll turkeys? Which btw I'm not a fan of the turkey at al
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op


I won't ever stop playing my Tzeentch Daemons, even though they're among the most easily abusive units in the codex. Instead, I simply resort to a few things called "self control" and "moderation" to ensure that my opponents also get to some fun...
I'll happily take the Grimoire for example - it's a solid item and well worth the pts investment. I simply won't ever (ab)use it to build an obnoxious re-rolled 2++ unit of any kind. (and instead, I can thus spread my Forewarning to another unit, and give myself two buffed units, instead of one fun-wrecking hate machine.)
Likewise when Flamers were the pinnacle of cheddar, I'd still use some in my army, I simply wouldn't take nearly as many, because they would definitely ruin the game for my opponents... A single unit of 3-6 depending on if I was playing 1000pts or 1500-1700 was my personal rule. I'd only take a fluffy unit of 9 if my opponent decided they were game to try facing off against it.

It's not difficult at all to dial back a list to make the game a little more fun and easy going for non-hyper competitive folks. Especially since it seems the majority of Tourney players claim to have large collections due to the constantly shifting meta.

The only thing you prove by not agreeing to dial down your highly polished, 110% optimised Tourney crushing list and then spouting off that your opponents need to stop acting like special snowflake infants and "pay-to-win-git-gud-L2P-Lolzlolzlolz!", is that YOU are the elitist donkeycave in need of some basic manners.

 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/22 17:17:29


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Dman137 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op


I won't ever stop playing my Tzeentch Daemons, even though they're among the most easily abusive units in the codex. Instead, I simply resort to a few things called "self control" and "moderation" to ensure that my opponents also get to some fun...
I'll happily take the Grimoire for example - it's a solid item and well worth the pts investment. I simply won't ever (ab)use it to build an obnoxious re-rolled 2++ unit of any kind. (and instead, I can thus spread my Forewarning to another unit, and give myself two buffed units, instead of one fun-wrecking hate machine.)
Likewise when Flamers were the pinnacle of cheddar, I'd still use some in my army, I simply wouldn't take nearly as many, because they would definitely ruin the game for my opponents... A single unit of 3-6 depending on if I was playing 1000pts or 1500-1700 was my personal rule. I'd only take a fluffy unit of 9 if my opponent decided they were game to try facing off against it.

It's not difficult at all to dial back a list to make the game a little more fun and easy going for non-hyper competitive folks. Especially since it seems the majority of Tourney players claim to have large collections due to the constantly shifting meta.

The only thing you prove by not agreeing to dial down your highly polished, 110% optimised Tourney crushing list and then spouting off that your opponents need to stop acting like special snowflake infants and "pay-to-win-git-gud-L2P-Lolzlolzlolz!", is that YOU are the elitist donkeycave in need of some basic manners.
spoken like a true goob.


The nerd elitism is strong with this one.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 master of ordinance wrote:
@ Thenewblood - The Imperial Guard have never, on their own, been very powerful. The dreaded Leafblower list was in actual fact created by allying the Guard with the Inquisition and abusing several abilities gained from said Inquisition to boost the otherwise mediocre Imperial Guard units. It was also extremely points heavy - to avoid the worst of it all you had to do was play at sub 2.5K points and if you wanted it gone all together then all you had to do was avoid 2K and above games.


I'd credit the Leafblower army to the player, not the list. Nick Rose aka Darkwynn is easily one of the best players in the US.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Dman137 wrote:
so they told off players because they play competitively and basically made them not want to come back to the store, so you drove sales away either way lol you think GW wants people that just don't buy anything new and just play with there old stuff, sorry to burst your bubble but it's people like you that are the reason GW has no growth. I buy 1000$ dollar army's at a time, usually 3 or 4 army's a year not to meantion all the other stuff I pic up, and I'm a competitive player and guess what GW would never get rid of me because I'm a real hobbyist


Cute. That's really cute.
Good for you for the fact you can spend 1000$ armies spontaneously. But guess what? I'm not. Cater to me too, would you? I define myself as a real hobbyist. By definition:
Hobbyist: a person who pursues an activity in their spare time for pleasure.
Am I not a real hobbyist?
Sorry I'm such a FAKE hobbyist to you because I can't shell out 1000$ on plastic minatures every time I leave the house.

I am not competitive. I am not a power gamer. I don't even play to win. I play for my personal enjoyment. For some, that is in the tournament scene, revelling in victory. That's fine. But so is what I want, and you can take your army and shove it right back in your carry case if you won't abide by that.

There is nothing wrong with competitive IN A COMPETITION. Emphasis on that. In a friendly? No, that's why people hate on Eldar. Regardless of the game you're playing, Eldar are pretty much head, shoulders and chest above other armies because their sub-standard units are on a par with other armies best! Eldar are a fairly well internally designed force because that every unit can be fielded and used effectively. Can you say that about other armies? You could effectively use Rough Riders or footslogging Nobz in a list? What people want is for what they have to work. If every unit in the game was effective, balanced against eachother, nothing overtly broken, then we would have a near-perfect game.
Alas, that is not the case.

EDIT: I really would like to see your reaction if Eldar became a useful as wet paper body armour. Really, I would. Goob that, if you would. In fact, I'd love to run a game using MY modified Eldar rules. Let's see how that flies. L2P indeed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/22 17:00:11



They/them

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Look, both sides have a bit of a point here. One problem with bringing only the most powerful stiff is that you end up limiting the game a bunch because many units are simply unusable. Only brining the same fully optimized stuff all the time can get very boring for some. Part of the fun of this game is using all your stuff. If people only bring top stuff (scatbikes, _____star, etc) that opportunity is eliminated.

One thing I don't understand about some players is the mindset of focusing on bringing the best list possible all the time leaving tactics as something of an afterthought. For me there is fun to be had using a somewhat underpowered list so that tactics during the game really matter. That is the more interesting challenge for me compared to list building.

--

Perhaps the biggest problem is players taking the wrong expectations to the wrong environment. One of dman's early and I think legitimate complaints was people docking his soft scores because he brought Eldar to a tournament. The point of a tournament is to bring powerful stuff so you can win and you shouldn't be docked for that.

Bringing the same type of list to casual night is not sporting though,especially if you give people a hard time for not bringing a power list. Casual night should be more about working together to bring relatively even lists so there is a six turn battle with drama to it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look, both sides have a bit of a point here. One problem with bringing only the most powerful stiff is that you end up limiting the game a bunch because many units are simply unusable. Only brining the same fully optimized stuff all the time can get very boring for some. Part of the fun of this game is using all your stuff. If people only bring top stuff (scatbikes, _____star, etc) that opportunity is eliminated.

One thing I don't understand about some players is the mindset of focusing on bringing the best list possible all the time leaving tactics as something of an afterthought. For me there is fun to be had using a somewhat underpowered list so that tactics during the game really matter. That is the more interesting challenge for me compared to list building.

--

Perhaps the biggest problem is players taking the wrong expectations to the wrong environment. One of dman's early and I think legitimate complaints was people docking his soft scores because he brought Eldar to a tournament. The point of a tournament is to bring powerful stuff so you can win and you shouldn't be docked for that.

Bringing the same type of list to casual night is not sporting though,especially if you give people a hard time for not bringing a power list. Casual night should be more about working together to bring relatively even lists so there is a six turn battle with drama to it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/22 17:02:48


 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Experiment 626 I agree with you I love the word bearers and I've decided to theme my csm around them (damn you argel tal) but if in the next csm book word bearers become stupidly good ie allowing chaos daemons to use as icons as beacons which they can assault off il either reduce the amount of daemons/icons I use or just drop them from the list all together. Same for cultists
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Dman, please tell me why you keep calling myself and others GOOB's?

Also, I wish that I could spend £4000 on the hobby each year. But, unlike some of us, I am not able to shell out thousands.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

I'd rather be a goob than someone who only buys and uses the stupidly powerful stuff and combos
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Besides, I would love for someone to tell me how, WITHOUT ALLIES, I, as an Imperial Guard player, am supposed to be able to 'adapt too' and 'take on' Eldar scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Dman137 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op


I won't ever stop playing my Tzeentch Daemons, even though they're among the most easily abusive units in the codex. Instead, I simply resort to a few things called "self control" and "moderation" to ensure that my opponents also get to some fun...
I'll happily take the Grimoire for example - it's a solid item and well worth the pts investment. I simply won't ever (ab)use it to build an obnoxious re-rolled 2++ unit of any kind. (and instead, I can thus spread my Forewarning to another unit, and give myself two buffed units, instead of one fun-wrecking hate machine.)
Likewise when Flamers were the pinnacle of cheddar, I'd still use some in my army, I simply wouldn't take nearly as many, because they would definitely ruin the game for my opponents... A single unit of 3-6 depending on if I was playing 1000pts or 1500-1700 was my personal rule. I'd only take a fluffy unit of 9 if my opponent decided they were game to try facing off against it.

It's not difficult at all to dial back a list to make the game a little more fun and easy going for non-hyper competitive folks. Especially since it seems the majority of Tourney players claim to have large collections due to the constantly shifting meta.

The only thing you prove by not agreeing to dial down your highly polished, 110% optimised Tourney crushing list and then spouting off that your opponents need to stop acting like special snowflake infants and "pay-to-win-git-gud-L2P-Lolzlolzlolz!", is that YOU are the elitist donkeycave in need of some basic manners.
spoken like a true goob.


Gonna have to go with Champion of Slaanesh on this. Don't see goobishness (a defeatist, dont ask me to improve attitude) in what he is saying. Looks like he knows how to win, has the tools to do so and uses them in the right environment, but plays in a way to ensure his opponent can have a reasonably fun game. Perhaps goob friendly, but not being a good himself.

@Champion. I'm curious. When you use the "cheesy" stuff in a toned down way, did you get hate for even that due to people not putting the effort or being unable to see that you had toned things down? My experience with Eldar was that when I toned things down and was an incompetent newb, I still got the hate. OMG you brought [2] starcannons at 2000 points, Eldar are so cheesy. Those type of people that goobs label really fits. They can't see context at all and just fly into anti-Eldar nerd rage at the mere mention of them.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
so they told off players because they play competitively and basically made them not want to come back to the store, so you drove sales away either way lol you think GW wants people that just don't buy anything new and just play with there old stuff, sorry to burst your bubble but it's people like you that are the reason GW has no growth. I buy 1000$ dollar army's at a time, usually 3 or 4 army's a year not to meantion all the other stuff I pic up, and I'm a competitive player and guess what GW would never get rid of me because I'm a real hobbyist


Cute. That's really cute.
Good for you for the fact you can spend 1000$ armies spontaneously. But guess what? I'm not. Cater to me too, would you? I define myself as a real hobbyist. By definition:
Hobbyist: a person who pursues an activity in their spare time for pleasure.
Am I not a real hobbyist?
Sorry I'm such a FAKE hobbyist to you because I can't shell out 1000$ on plastic minatures every time I leave the house.

I am not competitive. I am not a power gamer. I don't even play to win. I play for my personal enjoyment. For some, that is in the tournament scene, revelling in victory. That's fine. But so is what I want, and you can take your army and shove it right back in your carry case if you won't abide by that.

There is nothing wrong with competitive IN A COMPETITION. Emphasis on that. In a friendly? No, that's why people hate on Eldar. Regardless of the game you're playing, Eldar are pretty much head, shoulders and chest above other armies because their sub-standard units are on a par with other armies best! Eldar are a fairly well internally designed force because that every unit can be fielded and used effectively. Can you say that about other armies? You could effectively use Rough Riders or footslogging Nobz in a list? What people want is for what they have to work. If every unit in the game was effective, balanced against eachother, nothing overtly broken, then we would have a near-perfect game.
Alas, that is not the case.

EDIT: I really would like to see your reaction if Eldar became a useful as wet paper body armour. Really, I would. Goob that, if you would. In fact, I'd love to run a game using MY modified Eldar rules. Let's see how that flies. L2P indeed.
if eldar sucked I'd just pick a new army and buy it lol it's not that hard, make a list play text it if you like it then buy it lol
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op


I won't ever stop playing my Tzeentch Daemons, even though they're among the most easily abusive units in the codex. Instead, I simply resort to a few things called "self control" and "moderation" to ensure that my opponents also get to some fun...
I'll happily take the Grimoire for example - it's a solid item and well worth the pts investment. I simply won't ever (ab)use it to build an obnoxious re-rolled 2++ unit of any kind. (and instead, I can thus spread my Forewarning to another unit, and give myself two buffed units, instead of one fun-wrecking hate machine.)
Likewise when Flamers were the pinnacle of cheddar, I'd still use some in my army, I simply wouldn't take nearly as many, because they would definitely ruin the game for my opponents... A single unit of 3-6 depending on if I was playing 1000pts or 1500-1700 was my personal rule. I'd only take a fluffy unit of 9 if my opponent decided they were game to try facing off against it.

It's not difficult at all to dial back a list to make the game a little more fun and easy going for non-hyper competitive folks. Especially since it seems the majority of Tourney players claim to have large collections due to the constantly shifting meta.

The only thing you prove by not agreeing to dial down your highly polished, 110% optimised Tourney crushing list and then spouting off that your opponents need to stop acting like special snowflake infants and "pay-to-win-git-gud-L2P-Lolzlolzlolz!", is that YOU are the elitist donkeycave in need of some basic manners.
spoken like a true goob.


Gonna have to go with Champion of Slaanesh on this. Don't see goobishness (a defeatist, dont ask me to improve attitude) in what he is saying. Looks like he knows how to win, has the tools to do so and uses them in the right environment, but plays in a way to ensure his opponent can have a reasonably fun game. Perhaps goob friendly, but not being a good himself.

@Champion. I'm curious. When you use the "cheesy" stuff in a toned down way, did you get hate for even that due to people not putting the effort or being unable to see that you had toned things down? My experience with Eldar was that when I toned things down and was an incompetent newb, I still got the hate. OMG you brought [2] starcannons at 2000 points, Eldar are so cheesy. Those type of people that goobs label really fits. They can't see context at all and just fly into anti-Eldar nerd rage at the mere mention of them.


What I mean by tone down is if let's say if in 7th ed csm we got legion rules and to use the example I used that if when using word bearers rules daemons could use csm icons as teleport homers and Assault off of them what I'd probably do is either take less units it benefits and more that it Dosent or I'd drop them from my list. For example when I've played pyre nurgle marines in the past ive found the game to be really unenjoyable due to the fact it's boring for my opponent to face. Same goes for my Daemons because the army is so damn random I can potentially table myself with a bad roll or rofl stomp my opponent with the warpstorm table. The only time I run my Daemons now is as allies. It's like at the start of 6th when flamers got updated I used the rules which were in the codex not the updated ones made them alot more fun
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 master of ordinance wrote:
Besides, I would love for someone to tell me how, WITHOUT ALLIES, I, as an Imperial Guard player, am supposed to be able to 'adapt too' and 'take on' Eldar scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade.


What you are missing a bit is that the Eldar guy whether at a tournament or in a more casual environment wants to be prepared for armies that do use allies since that is part of the rules. Is there a good solution for the Eldar player to be ready for the guy that uses three allies while also not destroying the guy who won't use any? It's very tricky to be able to play the top army and the bottom army with the same list.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 jy2 wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
@ Thenewblood - The Imperial Guard have never, on their own, been very powerful. The dreaded Leafblower list was in actual fact created by allying the Guard with the Inquisition and abusing several abilities gained from said Inquisition to boost the otherwise mediocre Imperial Guard units. It was also extremely points heavy - to avoid the worst of it all you had to do was play at sub 2.5K points and if you wanted it gone all together then all you had to do was avoid 2K and above games.


I'd credit the Leafblower army to the player, not the list. Nick Rose aka Darkwynn is easily one of the best players in the US.

Even when "leafblower" was a thing, Darkwynn was rather open about how he won 'ard boyz in large part due to getting first turn every game, and his opponents consistently making major deployment mistakes.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Btw Dman NOT everyone has the money to afford the latest cheese or want to play power builds or even like the power builds. Now no offence to you because fair enough you like to play tournaments but there's quite a few competitive players in my local store but we all try to stick to the theme of the force we are playing and not min mix stuff. I've tried net lists before (was a fantasy WoC one) and not only did I lose worse than normal with it but I didn't understand how it works. I don't know about everyone else but I Prefere to use more fluffy/weaker lists than one which is just a hodge podge of the best units/synergies.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

Dman you are so ignorant to what others are saying. I really hope you eventually find that enlightenment you need
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op


I won't ever stop playing my Tzeentch Daemons, even though they're among the most easily abusive units in the codex. Instead, I simply resort to a few things called "self control" and "moderation" to ensure that my opponents also get to some fun...
I'll happily take the Grimoire for example - it's a solid item and well worth the pts investment. I simply won't ever (ab)use it to build an obnoxious re-rolled 2++ unit of any kind. (and instead, I can thus spread my Forewarning to another unit, and give myself two buffed units, instead of one fun-wrecking hate machine.)
Likewise when Flamers were the pinnacle of cheddar, I'd still use some in my army, I simply wouldn't take nearly as many, because they would definitely ruin the game for my opponents... A single unit of 3-6 depending on if I was playing 1000pts or 1500-1700 was my personal rule. I'd only take a fluffy unit of 9 if my opponent decided they were game to try facing off against it.

It's not difficult at all to dial back a list to make the game a little more fun and easy going for non-hyper competitive folks. Especially since it seems the majority of Tourney players claim to have large collections due to the constantly shifting meta.

The only thing you prove by not agreeing to dial down your highly polished, 110% optimised Tourney crushing list and then spouting off that your opponents need to stop acting like special snowflake infants and "pay-to-win-git-gud-L2P-Lolzlolzlolz!", is that YOU are the elitist donkeycave in need of some basic manners.
spoken like a true goob.


Gonna have to go with Champion of Slaanesh on this. Don't see goobishness (a defeatist, dont ask me to improve attitude) in what he is saying. Looks like he knows how to win, has the tools to do so and uses them in the right environment, but plays in a way to ensure his opponent can have a reasonably fun game. Perhaps goob friendly, but not being a good himself.

@Champion. I'm curious. When you use the "cheesy" stuff in a toned down way, did you get hate for even that due to people not putting the effort or being unable to see that you had toned things down? My experience with Eldar was that when I toned things down and was an incompetent newb, I still got the hate. OMG you brought [2] starcannons at 2000 points, Eldar are so cheesy. Those type of people that goobs label really fits. They can't see context at all and just fly into anti-Eldar nerd rage at the mere mention of them.


What I mean by tone down is if let's say if in 7th ed csm we got legion rules and to use the example I used that if when using word bearers rules daemons could use csm icons as teleport homers and Assault off of them what I'd probably do is either take less units it benefits and more that it Dosent or I'd drop them from my list. For example when I've played pyre nurgle marines in the past ive found the game to be really unenjoyable due to the fact it's boring for my opponent to face. Same goes for my Daemons because the army is so damn random I can potentially table myself with a bad roll or rofl stomp my opponent with the warpstorm table. The only time I run my Daemons now is as allies. It's like at the start of 6th when flamers got updated I used the rules which were in the codex not the updated ones made them alot more fun


I think you misunderstood my question. Your actions sound reasonable, decent and other good adjectives. I'm wondering about your opponents' response. What I experienced when playing Eldar actively was that even if I toned it down like you do, I would still have to listen to whining about Eldar. Wondering if it is the same for you. Do you get "cool, thanks for not being abusive like you could be", or is it "$!#£^ !/^£/ flamers cheesy !/^£ $$×#%".

Part of some Eldar players negative attitude I think can be traced to the fact that no matter what they do people give them grief so "why bother I'll just glory in the sorrows of my enemies".
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Dman137 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
so they told off players because they play competitively and basically made them not want to come back to the store, so you drove sales away either way lol you think GW wants people that just don't buy anything new and just play with there old stuff, sorry to burst your bubble but it's people like you that are the reason GW has no growth. I buy 1000$ dollar army's at a time, usually 3 or 4 army's a year not to meantion all the other stuff I pic up, and I'm a competitive player and guess what GW would never get rid of me because I'm a real hobbyist


Cute. That's really cute.
Good for you for the fact you can spend 1000$ armies spontaneously. But guess what? I'm not. Cater to me too, would you? I define myself as a real hobbyist. By definition:
Hobbyist: a person who pursues an activity in their spare time for pleasure.
Am I not a real hobbyist?
Sorry I'm such a FAKE hobbyist to you because I can't shell out 1000$ on plastic minatures every time I leave the house.

I am not competitive. I am not a power gamer. I don't even play to win. I play for my personal enjoyment. For some, that is in the tournament scene, revelling in victory. That's fine. But so is what I want, and you can take your army and shove it right back in your carry case if you won't abide by that.

There is nothing wrong with competitive IN A COMPETITION. Emphasis on that. In a friendly? No, that's why people hate on Eldar. Regardless of the game you're playing, Eldar are pretty much head, shoulders and chest above other armies because their sub-standard units are on a par with other armies best! Eldar are a fairly well internally designed force because that every unit can be fielded and used effectively. Can you say that about other armies? You could effectively use Rough Riders or footslogging Nobz in a list? What people want is for what they have to work. If every unit in the game was effective, balanced against eachother, nothing overtly broken, then we would have a near-perfect game.
Alas, that is not the case.

EDIT: I really would like to see your reaction if Eldar became a useful as wet paper body armour. Really, I would. Goob that, if you would. In fact, I'd love to run a game using MY modified Eldar rules. Let's see how that flies. L2P indeed.
if eldar sucked I'd just pick a new army and buy it lol it's not that hard, make a list play text it if you like it then buy it lol


Not everyone has $500 to burn at the drop of a hat.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dman all i have to say to you is please try using csm then you have the right to moan as unless you use forgeworld the army sucks. I litrally won't take my csm to a serious tournament heck I've stopped bringing my daemons because vs some armies they are too op


I won't ever stop playing my Tzeentch Daemons, even though they're among the most easily abusive units in the codex. Instead, I simply resort to a few things called "self control" and "moderation" to ensure that my opponents also get to some fun...
I'll happily take the Grimoire for example - it's a solid item and well worth the pts investment. I simply won't ever (ab)use it to build an obnoxious re-rolled 2++ unit of any kind. (and instead, I can thus spread my Forewarning to another unit, and give myself two buffed units, instead of one fun-wrecking hate machine.)
Likewise when Flamers were the pinnacle of cheddar, I'd still use some in my army, I simply wouldn't take nearly as many, because they would definitely ruin the game for my opponents... A single unit of 3-6 depending on if I was playing 1000pts or 1500-1700 was my personal rule. I'd only take a fluffy unit of 9 if my opponent decided they were game to try facing off against it.

It's not difficult at all to dial back a list to make the game a little more fun and easy going for non-hyper competitive folks. Especially since it seems the majority of Tourney players claim to have large collections due to the constantly shifting meta.

The only thing you prove by not agreeing to dial down your highly polished, 110% optimised Tourney crushing list and then spouting off that your opponents need to stop acting like special snowflake infants and "pay-to-win-git-gud-L2P-Lolzlolzlolz!", is that YOU are the elitist donkeycave in need of some basic manners.
spoken like a true goob.


Gonna have to go with Champion of Slaanesh on this. Don't see goobishness (a defeatist, dont ask me to improve attitude) in what he is saying. Looks like he knows how to win, has the tools to do so and uses them in the right environment, but plays in a way to ensure his opponent can have a reasonably fun game. Perhaps goob friendly, but not being a good himself.

@Champion. I'm curious. When you use the "cheesy" stuff in a toned down way, did you get hate for even that due to people not putting the effort or being unable to see that you had toned things down? My experience with Eldar was that when I toned things down and was an incompetent newb, I still got the hate. OMG you brought [2] starcannons at 2000 points, Eldar are so cheesy. Those type of people that goobs label really fits. They can't see context at all and just fly into anti-Eldar nerd rage at the mere mention of them.


What I mean by tone down is if let's say if in 7th ed csm we got legion rules and to use the example I used that if when using word bearers rules daemons could use csm icons as teleport homers and Assault off of them what I'd probably do is either take less units it benefits and more that it Dosent or I'd drop them from my list. For example when I've played pyre nurgle marines in the past ive found the game to be really unenjoyable due to the fact it's boring for my opponent to face. Same goes for my Daemons because the army is so damn random I can potentially table myself with a bad roll or rofl stomp my opponent with the warpstorm table. The only time I run my Daemons now is as allies. It's like at the start of 6th when flamers got updated I used the rules which were in the codex not the updated ones made them alot more fun


I think you misunderstood my question. Your actions sound reasonable, decent and other good adjectives. I'm wondering about your opponents' response. What I experienced when playing Eldar actively was that even if I toned it down like you do, I would still have to listen to whining about Eldar. Wondering if it is the same for you. Do you get "cool, thanks for not being abusive like you could be", or is it "$!#£^ !/^£/ flamers cheesy !/^£ $$×#%".

Part of some Eldar players negative attitude I think can be traced to the fact that no matter what they do people give them grief so "why bother I'll just glory in the sorrows of my enemies".


Ah sorry the reaction I got was they thought it was alright to face but the thing is I think people actually found it annoying. I do feel for the Eldar players who have played their army for years and all of a sudden it's become stupidly good
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Colne, England

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dman137 wrote:
so they told off players because they play competitively and basically made them not want to come back to the store, so you drove sales away either way lol you think GW wants people that just don't buy anything new and just play with there old stuff, sorry to burst your bubble but it's people like you that are the reason GW has no growth. I buy 1000$ dollar army's at a time, usually 3 or 4 army's a year not to meantion all the other stuff I pic up, and I'm a competitive player and guess what GW would never get rid of me because I'm a real hobbyist


Cute. That's really cute.
Good for you for the fact you can spend 1000$ armies spontaneously. But guess what? I'm not. Cater to me too, would you? I define myself as a real hobbyist. By definition:
Hobbyist: a person who pursues an activity in their spare time for pleasure.
Am I not a real hobbyist?
Sorry I'm such a FAKE hobbyist to you because I can't shell out 1000$ on plastic minatures every time I leave the house.

I am not competitive. I am not a power gamer. I don't even play to win. I play for my personal enjoyment. For some, that is in the tournament scene, revelling in victory. That's fine. But so is what I want, and you can take your army and shove it right back in your carry case if you won't abide by that.

There is nothing wrong with competitive IN A COMPETITION. Emphasis on that. In a friendly? No, that's why people hate on Eldar. Regardless of the game you're playing, Eldar are pretty much head, shoulders and chest above other armies because their sub-standard units are on a par with other armies best! Eldar are a fairly well internally designed force because that every unit can be fielded and used effectively. Can you say that about other armies? You could effectively use Rough Riders or footslogging Nobz in a list? What people want is for what they have to work. If every unit in the game was effective, balanced against eachother, nothing overtly broken, then we would have a near-perfect game.
Alas, that is not the case.

EDIT: I really would like to see your reaction if Eldar became a useful as wet paper body armour. Really, I would. Goob that, if you would. In fact, I'd love to run a game using MY modified Eldar rules. Let's see how that flies. L2P indeed.
if eldar sucked I'd just pick a new army and buy it lol it's not that hard, make a list play text it if you like it then buy it lol


Not everyone has $500 to burn at the drop of a hat.


The answer is get a job you Goob

Brb learning to play.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Ah sorry the reaction I got was they thought it was alright to face but the thing is I think people actually found it annoying. I do feel for the Eldar players who have played their army for years and all of a sudden it's become stupidly good


Its so tricky trying to make the game work for everybody sometimes. Don't tone it down and one guy gets ticked. Tone it down and another gets annoyed and feels disrespected. If GW would do their job and make a decently balanced game, it would save everyone a ton of grief. That's really the biggest problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/22 17:49:48


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 master of ordinance wrote:
@ Thenewblood - The Imperial Guard have never, on their own, been very powerful. The dreaded Leafblower list was in actual fact created by allying the Guard with the Inquisition and abusing several abilities gained from said Inquisition to boost the otherwise mediocre Imperial Guard units. It was also extremely points heavy - to avoid the worst of it all you had to do was play at sub 2.5K points and if you wanted it gone all together then all you had to do was avoid 2K and above games.



Leafblower worked without Inquisition. I saw it happen week in and week out.
   
 
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