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Ah, Ork mentality... Must smash shiny things!

As I understand it, a valid strategy is to ignore near-invulnerable units with low damage output, right?

I don't know the ork codex, but I'm under the impression you can field a large number of units at low cost - so could you flood the board with models and win on objectives?

RE: Gretchen - the whole point is you tie it up. You sacrifice a low number of points worth of models to stop it moving/shooting for a turn.

Is there something I am massively misunderstanding here guys - please feel free to correct me!

I've seen dman's thoughts on wraithknights before. He's said he doesn't like them because [while orks may have a hard time taking them down, other] highly competitive lists can manage it fairly easily. He's said it isn't a real good choice in a competitive environment.

Please note, I'm not arguing the Wraithknight is in any way balanced... it should cost at least 100pts more than it does, and it should be unique (or busted back down to MC where it belongs).

I'm more trying to address the issue of 'I can't deal with it' with 'do you NEED to deal with it?'

@zerosignal. Ignore it was my strategy against the monolith with my dark Eldar back in the day. I had virtually no chance to destroy it so I spent the firepower elsewhere do it wasn't wasted. It sucked having units teleported or of cc by the thing the whole game, but there was nothing you could do.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
@zerosignal. Ignore it was my strategy against the monolith with my dark Eldar back in the day. I had virtually no chance to destroy it so I spent the firepower elsewhere do it wasn't wasted. It sucked having units teleported or of cc by the thing the whole game, but there was nothing you could do.

Except you cannot reliably ignore a Wraithknight due to its speed. People talk like ignoring it and tarpitting it works, as if it were still a Monstrous Creature.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
@zerosignal. Ignore it was my strategy against the monolith with my dark Eldar back in the day. I had virtually no chance to destroy it so I spent the firepower elsewhere do it wasn't wasted. It sucked having units teleported or of cc by the thing the whole game, but there was nothing you could do.

Didn't monolith do nothing besides being hard to kill? WK is maybe not impossible to kill and grav is a counter to it, but when it costs as little as it does and with its fire power, it is a good choice for tournaments. The fact that eldar can build lists without a 100pts undercosted GMC and they work very well tells more about hte power of the eldar codex, then about WK being weak.

And vs non tournament factions it is rather brutal

Eldar, exhibit A, B, and C for why GW needs to errata something sometime.

I actually started running screamerstar with my green tide partially because of wratihknights. The green tide walked up and baited a charge, I cast misfortune on the wraithknight during my turn and killed it during the assault phase and lowly orks brought it down!

It's not a solution that stays entirely in the codex but I still want to win AND play orks so its the best I can do.

Makumba wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
@zerosignal. Ignore it was my strategy against the monolith with my dark Eldar back in the day. I had virtually no chance to destroy it so I spent the firepower elsewhere do it wasn't wasted. It sucked having units teleported or of cc by the thing the whole game, but there was nothing you could do.

Didn't monolith do nothing besides being hard to kill? WK is maybe not impossible to kill and grav is a counter to it, but when it costs as little as it does and with its fire power, it is a good choice for tournaments. The fact that eldar can build lists without a 100pts undercosted GMC and they work very well tells more about hte power of the eldar codex, then about WK being weak.

And vs non tournament factions it is rather brutal

It pulled units out of close combat, giving an extra we'll be back roll and leaving my fragile dark eldar units high and dry for rapid fire death. Also had ordinance weapon that couldn't be used at same time as the teleporter and gauss guns on corners did a bit of shooting but not too scary. Teleporting could move units I think 24" away to the monolith potentially moving them 30+" in a turn neutralizing the dark eldar speed advantage to sone extent.

Wraithknight is more destructive on its own, monolith made other stuff more destructive and survivable.

First of all, great thread. Nothing better than reaidng those 7page while eating my lunch.

but you can't sit there and complain about army's that are currently out beating you or that your army is no good, sorry your snowflake sucks if you want that to change then buy some new units, maybe try a different army.

I'm sorry sir, but isn't that what this thread is all about? Or maybe you are complaining about your army being 'harder' to play than Thunderdome?

I think it's funny that from 1 side, you say: git gud, stop being goobs, and on the other side, you say: QQ, why is there other good list out there that I feel take less skill to play?

Then, you also go ahead and says a good general start when they create their list. So Thunderdome's general are good general then? And please, don't turn this thread into something it wasn't suppose to be. Don't say: what I meant is ''Stop complaining about Edlar because other stuff need to be nerf too''. If you REALLY think that's what you meant when you first posted, you should at least ask for another thread name.

On a final note: EVERYBODY knows there are some nasty list out there. I think you just feel Eldar got pick on more because you play Eldar. I was feeling the same before I sold my RW. It's not what made me sell them (I always like to switch army), but it was rather annoying to have people says your list is too OP when you don't think it is. But I don't go and be an hypocrite about it. Yes, RW are now strong, especially with Champion of Fenris det allied. People don't HATE eldar that much, they are probably just super tired of OP list that roflstomp their army of choice, when a good game should have every army on a equal power level.

ps: I don't agree with people claiming every unit should be equally good. That's impossible, and we don't live in a fantasy world. If you really want that 1 unit to shine, it's up to you to play with your factions strenght, and support the unit you like so it can shine. The thing is: right now, not every faction has access to that srong core that can a least support the rest of their army.

 PandaHero wrote:
And please, don't turn this thread into something it wasn't suppose to be. Don't say: what I meant is ''Stop complaining about Edlar because other stuff need to be nerf too''.

I'm fairly certain that that is exactly what he means though it is inartfully stated. Looking at this thread in the context of his other threads suggests that is his overall point.

A second, related idea I get from the various threads is "hey, I have to be able to handle stuff like this and it is really hard to do so with the best lists I can make so stop expecting me to gimp my list so you can handle them".

Dman's rhetorical style seems to be to not come directly to the point most of the time chosing instead to throw out bits and pieces from which you have to try to cobble together what he's thinking.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:
And please, don't turn this thread into something it wasn't suppose to be. Don't say: what I meant is ''Stop complaining about Edlar because other stuff need to be nerf too''.

I'm fairly certain that that is exactly what he means though it is inartfully stated. Looking at this thread in the context of his other threads suggests that is his overall point.

A second, related idea I get from the various threads is "hey, I have to be able to handle stuff like this and it is really hard to do so with the best lists I can make so stop expecting me to gimp my list so you can handle them".

Dman's rhetorical style seems to be to not come directly to the point most of the time chosing instead to throw out bits and pieces from which you have to try to cobble together what he's thinking.

The thing is, that's not even a point, because there's very very few people who have said that Eldar are the only thing that needs nerfing, we're all aware that there's other things that are broken that need fixing, Eldar just have a large amount of broken things concentrated in one book. Eldar aren't even the focus of every 'this is broken' thread on here, it's pretty even.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what is your suggestion for an Ork player to reliably kill the WraithKnight by turn 3?

Well not Lootas, they're AP4!

23x Tankbustas = 299pts, 2.55W in shooting
10x Deffkoptas = 300pts, 1.87W in shooting
21x Lootas = 294pts, 1.04W in shooting

Like you said PK Nobz do good damage, but you need to soften it up with some S8 AP3 first so you don't lose ~300pts to stomp.

so to reliably hurt the wk i need 2 units of tank bustas getting within 24 inches of the wk to inflict 2 1/2 wounds......and thats not factoring in any CS lol

2 Full Units of Deff Koptas also need to get within 24 inches of the WK to inflict only 1.9 wounds, again not factoring in Cover Saves.

And Lootas, thats 2 units of lootas, they only need 48 inches which is better. but They will inflict on average 1 wound a shooting phase.....Granted if they roll well they might double that ...... lol

So what DMAN meant to say was that certain armies that are OP themselves or had a GREAT 6th edition codex can take out WK's in 1-2 turns. Orks have no chance of doing that.

Also, you can't Tarpit a GC because Stomp will wipe that unit out in 1 turn, maybe 2 if it is EXTREMELY lucky. You can't ignore it either because GW made the stupid think a JUMP GC so its faster then most infantry out there and it can pretty much take over any Objective it wants, whenever it wants. So you look above and see how much dakka a Ork has to put out to inflict moderate wounds on it and you realize this thing can literally win the game on its own. The majority of the Eldar Codex is broken, WK, Warp Spiders, SCAT Bikes, Fire Dragons, D Weapons out the arse, and Wraithguard. Not going to get into IC's because that is pretty OP and broken as well. Dman believes that nothing in his codex is broken and thinks everyone should L2P or go buy another army. Again NOBODY has said Eldar are the only broken thing in the game, I would say that Centstars, 2++ in general and several other things are broken as well, its just the Eldar have taken OP and turned it into their Standard army wide trait.

Wait the WraithKnight can jump?
What the actual feth where GW even THINKING when they made this?!

It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

The ignorance of this statement is mind-boggling. Most of the armies aren't particularly old. There's also usually not much they can do to "update" anything that they didn't have available before, unless you're just insisting they move on to a different army, which basically means that you are only advocating people play about a third of the available armies.

Despite all the "it's fine, you just need to adapt" talk that gets bandied about, there's usually very little real advice that comes from that, as there's typically no secret new weakness to take advantage of or anything of the like, the new thing's just flat out better at whatever it was great at before. Eldar are a stellar example of this.

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

That kind of attitude will leave you short on games really quick.

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

I tried to write my thoughts several times in response. Obvious troll is obvious?

How is this dribble still going?

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

Old armies like Orks that are a year old and BA that are 9 months? It's nothing to do with 'old armies'. It's not like people have years to prepare. It's a matter of months between a rubbish army and a really strong one.

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

Cute. I'll be turning down all my games with you then, based on this. How will it take you to understand that many armies (Orks, Harlequins, Militarum Tempestus) cannot actually beat your casual list with their tournament-tier lists? Is this just more L2P horsegak or is it double standards horsegak? You seem to flit between the two.

How you got a top sportsmanship score truly eludes me. The mysteries of life.

Saged and reported to the FBI.

Wait, wrong website. Anyways, principle still holds.

Stone (eldar) crying that Paper (thunderdome) op and needs nerf
Paper (tw) will cry Scissors (tau markers) op and need nerf
Scissors(tau) cry Stone (eldar) op needs nerf

Conclusion?
L2P git gut and stop making obvious lists

Grubass wrote:
Stone (eldar) crying that Paper (thunderdome) op and needs nerf
Paper (tw) will cry Scissors (tau markers) op and need nerf
Scissors(tau) cry Stone (eldar) op needs nerf

Conclusion?
L2P git gut and stop making obvious lists

Stupid thing was if GW released all the codices simultaneously there would be alot less imbalance.
Buuut they don't.

Lobukia wrote:Eldar, exhibit A, B, and C for why GW needs to errata something sometime.

Erratas? FAQs? What are those? I've forgotten those existed at this point.

Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

The ignorance of this statement is mind-boggling. Most of the armies aren't particularly old. There's also usually not much they can do to "update" anything that they didn't have available before, unless you're just insisting they move on to a different army, which basically means that you are only advocating people play about a third of the available armies.

Despite all the "it's fine, you just need to adapt" talk that gets bandied about, there's usually very little real advice that comes from that, as there's typically no secret new weakness to take advantage of or anything of the like, the new thing's just flat out better at whatever it was great at before. Eldar are a stellar example of this.

I can see why Dman137 likes to play at tournaments so much: it's the only way people will actually play him!

Thanks to GW's release schedule, most of the 7th edition pre-Necron books are less than one year old, and they've been outclassed completely by Eldar. There is almost nothing these armies can do against Eldar on their own, and need some equally OP shenanigans (usually involving allies) just to stand a chance. Some armies (Orks, CSM) struggle against even toned-down Eldar due to their having terrible codexes. If you did, in fact, get an excellent sportsmanship score, you should know that outside of tournaments it's only fair to tone down your list so that the other person has a good time too.

Grubass wrote:Stone (eldar) crying that Paper (thunderdome) op and needs nerf
Paper (tw) will cry Scissors (tau markers) op and need nerf
Scissors(tau) cry Stone (eldar) op needs nerf

Conclusion?
L2P git gut and stop making obvious lists

The problem is that there are more armies in the game than Eldar, Tau, and Thunderdome. Against tournament-grade Eldar, for many armies it's a game of rock vs. AK-47. We all know who wins that fight, and it's no fun at all.

I will, however, agree that Dman137 needs a good dose of his own medicine. If he's so concerned about Thunderdome, he should just L2P and "git gud". Maybe he'll even buy himself a different army so that he stops giving Eldar players a bad name on this forum!

I agree dear Sir there's much more armies and lists just wanted to point out its pointless calling other stuff op when you just bring obvious list and get countered. Brought up a simplified circle of counters and reaction.
Eldar is prime example of overdoing
Thunderwolf is prime example of IoM bs

When you're playing the very same list as 60-80% of other players some logically thinking git will up his chances making some decent counter list that is still fare atleast well against other 20% with hight chance never even meeting anything out of best machup.

So yus git gut lousy git and stop being countered

 Ghazkuul wrote:

so to reliably hurt the wk i need 2 units of tank bustas getting within 24 inches of the wk to inflict 2 1/2 wounds......and thats not factoring in any CS lol

They've got Meltabombs too, so in combat 23A = 3.83W. If they all get to shoot, and they all get to charge, you've got a decent chance of taking one out in a single turn. That's pretty good.

I think Tankbustas are your way to go, their shooting is better than Lootas and their melee hits a WK like a PK. Plus they are cheaper than Nobz, so they'll hold up longer versus stomp. Damage output is not the issue -- it's that T4 6+. Keeping them alive is going to be challenging.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Eldar, exhibit A, B, and C for why GW needs to errata something sometime.

Erratas? FAQs? What are those? I've forgotten those existed at this point.

Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
It's pretty cut and dry, if your old army can't take on the new army's that come out then you have two options either don't play against them or update your army. I shouldn't have to tone down my army just because you like to live in the past, get with the times bro

The ignorance of this statement is mind-boggling. Most of the armies aren't particularly old. There's also usually not much they can do to "update" anything that they didn't have available before, unless you're just insisting they move on to a different army, which basically means that you are only advocating people play about a third of the available armies.

Despite all the "it's fine, you just need to adapt" talk that gets bandied about, there's usually very little real advice that comes from that, as there's typically no secret new weakness to take advantage of or anything of the like, the new thing's just flat out better at whatever it was great at before. Eldar are a stellar example of this.

I can see why Dman137 likes to play at tournaments so much: it's the only way people will actually play him!

Thanks to GW's release schedule, most of the 7th edition pre-Necron books are less than one year old, and they've been outclassed completely by Eldar. There is almost nothing these armies can do against Eldar on their own, and need some equally OP shenanigans (usually involving allies) just to stand a chance. Some armies (Orks, CSM) struggle against even toned-down Eldar due to their having terrible codexes. If you did, in fact, get an excellent sportsmanship score, you should know that outside of tournaments it's only fair to tone down your list so that the other person has a good time too.

Grubass wrote:Stone (eldar) crying that Paper (thunderdome) op and needs nerf
Paper (tw) will cry Scissors (tau markers) op and need nerf
Scissors(tau) cry Stone (eldar) op needs nerf

Conclusion?
L2P git gut and stop making obvious lists

The problem is that there are more armies in the game than Eldar, Tau, and Thunderdome. Against tournament-grade Eldar, for many armies it's a game of rock vs. AK-47. We all know who wins that fight, and it's no fun at all.

I will, however, agree that Dman137 needs a good dose of his own medicine. If he's so concerned about Thunderdome, he should just L2P and "git gud". Maybe he'll even buy himself a different army so that he stops giving Eldar players a bad name on this forum!

actually I'm not worried about thunderdome at all, I simply stated that it's a easy button army to play with, I play it yesterday and tabled they guy in 3 turns. It's called adapting, I saw what I did wrong the first time I played them so the second time I didn't make those mistakes, I didn't change my list at all just learned from my mistakes.

And yes your army's might only be a year old or 9 months and what not, you can use allies to help you, I play pretty much everyday and against many different types of players and Ive never toned down my army, it's disrespectful to them, they want to learn how to beat hard army's then you play against hard army's, you learn on how to become a great player. You don't get better by sitting there playing the same 2 people everyday.

Dman137 wrote:
Thunder dome shouldn't be allowed, of its needs a big nerf.

Dman137 wrote:
I simply stated that it's a easy button army to play with, I play it yesterday and tabled they guy in 3 turns.

Dman137 wrote: actually I'm not worried about thunderdome at all, I simply stated that it's a easy button army to play with, I play it yesterday and tabled they guy in 3 turns. It's called adapting, I saw what I did wrong the first time I played them so the second time I didn't make those mistakes, I didn't change my list at all just learned from my mistakes.

And yes your army's might only be a year old or 9 months and what not, you can use allies to help you, I play pretty much everyday and against many different types of players and Ive never toned down my army, it's disrespectful to them, they want to learn how to beat hard army's then you play against hard army's, you learn on how to become a great player. You don't get better by sitting there playing the same 2 people everyday.

Really? Recognize these words? They're only from your OP:

Dman137 wrote:So this weekend we had a major event first day was doubles 2000pts (1000pts per player) and the next day was singles 1850. Now it's been made clear that everyone on here thinks eldar are crazy amazing and over powered (sure) even tho there hasn't been one major event since they came out that eldar have won. On a even further note the army's that have won are prime examples of over powered lists from codecs that clearly need to be fixed. But this thread is to speak about the thunder dome list, you can't tell me that eldar are broken but 2++ reroll cover (that dosent need to be cast is just happens (asking as you within 6" of the landspeeder, who also gets the 2++ reroll) while everyone says eldar don't need skill to play they are the easy army to use to win, clearly you haven't seen the thunder dome army in action, I could let a two year old use the army and they would win lol so before you all go on about "ohh fix eldar they are broken blah blah blah" you all need to really open your eyes to the fact that there are even more broken things then eldar. Thunder dome shouldn't be allowed, of its needs a big nerf.

On a side note for those who think eldar are unfun to play against, a eldar army with a Lynx on a sky shield with scattbikes and hornets came 4th overall and took home best sports.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this quote gives the impression that you are complaining about Thunderdome and that people should nerf it instead of Eldar. why would you say that if you weren't concerned about that army? If you're going to be a hypocrite, Dman137, do yourself a favor and don't bring it up in the same thread.

Allies is not the be-all answer to army balance. Players should have the ability to stand against other armies using only their own codex. After all, Eldar have no problems in this department; why should any other army? And don't give me the "Imperium allies" BS. That's part of why Thunderdome and other lists are so obnoxious.

Funny as it may seem, not everyone wants to play on a highly competitive level all the time. Maybe people have other ideas of fun. in that case, toning down your army can be seen as a sign of respect for the other player and their sense of fun. The more you spout "L2P", the deeper the hole you dig yourself. Not that you haven't dug yourself a deep enough hole already.