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 Ghaz wrote:
So still no definition of Zooming that Skies of Fury doesn't override. Gotcha. You can't answer a simple question because it proves you wrong.

Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
You must be blind.

Can you tell me what is the definition of "still"?

And again, what is a Zooming Flyer? If you were to answer that, you would see where Skies of Fury overrides that, but you won't answer that simple question. What is the definition of Zooming? If you won't answer that question, we're done here

Because people fail at reading the rules they argue over:

Disembarking
A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

So, you cannot normally disembark if the transport moves more than 6".

Hover
A Flyer that has the Hover type can choose to Hover instead of Zooming. Hovering makes the Flyer slower, but considerably more agile, and in the case of Transports it allows passengers to embark or disembark.

A reminder that you normally cannot disembark if the transport moves more than 6".

ZOOM
... If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18" in its own Movement phase.

Tells us that a flyer can move over 12", and cannot normally move less than 18" (unless it hovers)

Skies of Fury: If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:

Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn and deploy the squad as if it were Deep Striking onto that point. If the unit scatters, every disembarking model must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain test. If any of the models cannot be deployed, the entire unit is destroyed. Models that disembark using the Skies of Fury special rule cannot charge on the turn they do so.

Tell us passengers can disembark from this specific transport even if it moves over 6" (zooming qualifies as moving more than 6"), that the passengers can be placed at any point over which this specific transport moved (zooming moves in a straight line), and risk being destroyed on a bad landing (because they are jumping out of a high speed transport).

Specific permission is given to bypass a general restriction.

SJ

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, what is a Zooming Flyer? If you were to answer that, you would see where Skies of Fury overrides that, but you won't answer that simple question. What is the definition of Zooming? If you won't answer that question, we're done here

So you can't see any thing that prove you wrong. Gotcha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because people fail at reading the rules they argue over:

Disembarking
A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

So, you cannot normally disembark if the transport moves more than 6".

Hover
A Flyer that has the Hover type can choose to Hover instead of Zooming. Hovering makes the Flyer slower, but considerably more agile, and in the case of Transports it allows passengers to embark or disembark.

A reminder that you normally cannot disembark if the transport moves more than 6".

ZOOM
... If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18" in its own Movement phase.

Tells us that a flyer can move over 12", and cannot normally move less than 18" (unless it hovers)

Skies of Fury: If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:

Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn and deploy the squad as if it were Deep Striking onto that point. If the unit scatters, every disembarking model must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain test. If any of the models cannot be deployed, the entire unit is destroyed. Models that disembark using the Skies of Fury special rule cannot charge on the turn they do so.

Tell us passengers can disembark from this specific transport even if it moves over 6" (zooming qualifies as moving more than 6"), that the passengers can be placed at any point over which this specific transport moved (zooming moves in a straight line), and risk being destroyed on a bad landing (because they are jumping out of a high speed transport).

Specific permission is given to bypass a general restriction.

SJ

Can you tell me the definition of "Still"?

Can you tell me the definition of "Still"?

Can you read the forum tenets?

SJ

If you think that zooming is totally equal to moving more than 6", please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves.
Or prove that Stormraven can do this.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, what does the rulebook define as Zooming?

Unfortunately you didn't paste the definition of Zooming but how the flyer moves when it Zooms. Necrons are specifically given permission to disembark while Zooming, here we don't have such permission.

Question to you: Can a Stormraven move further than 6" while Hovering and why don't you think the rule covers just this case? Your proof above does not address this.

Naw wrote:
Unfortunately you didn't paste the definition of Zooming but how the flyer moves when it Zooms.

So then why don't you post the definition of Zooming?

Naw wrote:
Necrons are specifically given permission to disembark while Zooming, here we don't have such permission.

Maybe because a Night Scythe can only Zoom, while the Storm Raven can both Zoom and Hover.

Naw wrote:
Question to you: Can a Stormraven move further than 6" while Hovering and why don't you think the rule covers just this case? Your proof above does not address this.

Hovering Flyers move as a Fast Skimmer, so they most definitely can move more than 6". Skies of Fury uses a single phrase (moving over 6") to cover both Hovering and Zooming.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Can you tell me the definition of "Still"?

Can you read the forum tenets?

SJ

 Ghaz wrote:

Naw wrote:
Unfortunately you didn't paste the definition of Zooming but how the flyer moves when it Zooms.

So then why don't you post the definition of Zooming?

Naw wrote:
Necrons are specifically given permission to disembark while Zooming, here we don't have such permission.

Maybe because a Night Scythe can only Zoom, while the Storm Raven can both Zoom and Hover.

Naw wrote:
Question to you: Can a Stormraven move further than 6" while Hovering and why don't you think the rule covers just this case? Your proof above does not address this.

Hovering Flyers move as a Fast Skimmer, so they most definitely can move more than 6". Skies of Fury uses a single phrase (moving over 6") to cover both Hovering and Zooming.

If you think that zooming is totally equal to moving more than 6", please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves.
Or prove that Stormraven can do this.

Eh just mulling over what has been posted:

-I believe that RAI the raven passengers should absolutely be able to jump out mid-flight.

-RAW however, it seems that is technically incorrect. It seems they copy-pasted from earlier editions when it was just a skimmer, and forgot to add a clause that allows them to ignore the "can't disembark while zooming" rule similar to the night scythe. Without such a clause, it seems the guys are stuck inside until it hovers. That said, I'll most likely play what seems to be the RAI version where they can paratroop out.

-Also man why are some people in ymdc so RUDE?! It's an ambiguous rule that is missing a key line of text that a similar rule has. Of course it's going to cause confusion. People shouldn't be so condescending just because others might read the rule differently. That's what gives ymdc such a bad reputation.

txdyz 675244 8369669 wrote:
If you think that zooming is totally equal to moving more than 6", please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves.
Or prove that Stormraven can do this.

Actually the way it's written, zooming is equal to moving more than 6" because it it's a forced minimum move distance of 18"

And because it is a forced minimum move distance, disembarking the unit at the beginning of the movement phase will still be along the vehicles movement path as per the rule, as a zooming vehicle must move or crash. Or turn into hover mode thus invalidating the use of the Skies of Fury Rules.

txdyz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Can you tell me the definition of "Still"?

Can you read the forum tenets?

SJ

 Ghaz wrote:

Naw wrote:
Unfortunately you didn't paste the definition of Zooming but how the flyer moves when it Zooms.

So then why don't you post the definition of Zooming?

Naw wrote:
Necrons are specifically given permission to disembark while Zooming, here we don't have such permission.

Maybe because a Night Scythe can only Zoom, while the Storm Raven can both Zoom and Hover.

Naw wrote:
Question to you: Can a Stormraven move further than 6" while Hovering and why don't you think the rule covers just this case? Your proof above does not address this.

Hovering Flyers move as a Fast Skimmer, so they most definitely can move more than 6". Skies of Fury uses a single phrase (moving over 6") to cover both Hovering and Zooming.

If you think that zooming is totally equal to moving more than 6", please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves.
Or prove that Stormraven can do this.

At this point, I'm convinced you don't own a BRB, or if you do, you've never bothered to read it.

SJ

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, what is a Zooming Flyer? If you were to answer that, you would see where Skies of Fury overrides that, but you won't answer that simple question. What is the definition of Zooming? If you won't answer that question, we're done here

A Zooming Flyer is one that chose Zooming mode. That gives both benefits and restrictions. One of which is that it forbids disembarking.

Fragile wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, what is a Zooming Flyer? If you were to answer that, you would see where Skies of Fury overrides that, but you won't answer that simple question. What is the definition of Zooming? If you won't answer that question, we're done here

A Zooming Flyer is one that chose Zooming mode. That gives both benefits and restrictions. One of which is that it forbids disembarking.

Good way to avoid the question. What is the definition of Zooming Mode?

 Ghaz wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, what is a Zooming Flyer? If you were to answer that, you would see where Skies of Fury overrides that, but you won't answer that simple question. What is the definition of Zooming? If you won't answer that question, we're done here

A Zooming Flyer is one that chose Zooming mode. That gives both benefits and restrictions. One of which is that it forbids disembarking.

Good way to avoid the question. What is the definition of Zooming Mode?

I have pasted the definition of zooming mode earlier. But you refused to read it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

txdyz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Can you tell me the definition of "Still"?

Can you read the forum tenets?

SJ

 Ghaz wrote:

Naw wrote:
Unfortunately you didn't paste the definition of Zooming but how the flyer moves when it Zooms.

So then why don't you post the definition of Zooming?

Naw wrote:
Necrons are specifically given permission to disembark while Zooming, here we don't have such permission.

Maybe because a Night Scythe can only Zoom, while the Storm Raven can both Zoom and Hover.

Naw wrote:
Question to you: Can a Stormraven move further than 6" while Hovering and why don't you think the rule covers just this case? Your proof above does not address this.

Hovering Flyers move as a Fast Skimmer, so they most definitely can move more than 6". Skies of Fury uses a single phrase (moving over 6") to cover both Hovering and Zooming.

If you think that zooming is totally equal to moving more than 6", please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves.
Or prove that Stormraven can do this.

At this point, I'm convinced you don't own a BRB, or if you do, you've never bothered to read it.

SJ

So you cannot answer my question because that will prove you wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

txdyz 675244 8369669 wrote:
If you think that zooming is totally equal to moving more than 6", please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves.
Or prove that Stormraven can do this.

Actually the way it's written, zooming is equal to moving more than 6" because it it's a forced minimum move distance of 18"

And because it is a forced minimum move distance, disembarking the unit at the beginning of the movement phase will still be along the vehicles movement path as per the rule, as a zooming vehicle must move or crash. Or turn into hover mode thus invalidating the use of the Skies of Fury Rules.

Then please prove these two assumptions.

Does it also override the timing of disembarking?

The brb gives restrictions on when you can can't disembark. If SOF gives me a blanket permission overriding all restrictions, (as long as the SR moves over 6")what's to stop me disembarking in any phase?

Not trying to argue, just trying to take the idea to it's logical conclusion

 jokerkd wrote:
Does it also override the timing of disembarking?

The brb gives restrictions on when you can can't disembark. If SOF gives me a blanket permission overriding all restrictions, (as long as the SR moves over 6")what's to stop me disembarking in any phase?

Not trying to argue, just trying to take the idea to it's logical conclusion

Skies of Fury only applies to one specific instance, which is covered within the rules noted. Nothing more.

SJ

What instance? It doesn't say "when" it says "if"

The instance when you want to disembark the passengers on your Stormraven that happens to be moving more than 6" that turn. Let's brake it down:

Stormraven with passengers will be moving more than 6" this movement phase (it's zooming). I cannot normally disembark under this condition, but thankfully the Stormraven comes equipped with the Skies of Fury special rule, which allows me to disembark the passengers via Deep Stike at any point I choose over which the Stormraven will move/did move.

That would be that one instance the rule applies to.

SJ

But how do you argue with someone who says "I'm disembarking in the shooting phase because skies of fury overrides the restriction that i can only do so in the movement phase"?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The instance when you want to disembark the passengers on your Stormraven that happens to be moving more than 6" that turn. Let's brake it down:

Stormraven with passengers will be moving more than 6" this movement phase (it's zooming). I cannot normally disembark under this condition, but thankfully the Stormraven comes equipped with the Skies of Fury special rule, which allows me to disembark the passengers via Deep Stike at any point I choose over which the Stormraven will move/did move.

That would be that one instance the rule applies to.

SJ

Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
Again, this restriction is not relevant to distance of moving. If you think that the sentence is equal to "can disembark before move or after move no more than 6"", then please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves as I have asked for again and again.
As you said before: A rule that overrides one restriction is overriding ... one restriction. Now there are two.

 jokerkd wrote:
But how do you argue with someone who says "I'm disembarking in the shooting phase because skies of fury overrides the restriction that i can only do so in the movement phase"?

They would need to show where in the rules that they could. Since they cannot provide any such rules, it's a non-issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

txdyz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The instance when you want to disembark the passengers on your Stormraven that happens to be moving more than 6" that turn. Let's brake it down:

Stormraven with passengers will be moving more than 6" this movement phase (it's zooming). I cannot normally disembark under this condition, but thankfully the Stormraven comes equipped with the Skies of Fury special rule, which allows me to disembark the passengers via Deep Stike at any point I choose over which the Stormraven will move/did move.

That would be that one instance the rule applies to.

SJ

Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
Again, this restriction is not relevant to distance of moving. If you think that the sentence is equal to "can disembark before move or after move no more than 6"", then please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves as I have asked for again and again.
As you said before: A rule that overrides one restriction is overriding ... one restriction. Now there are two.

The only restriction, as has been posted numerous times in this thread, that prevent units from embarking or disembarking a zooming transport is that zooming has a 18" minimum move, which is more than the normal 6" limit. Skies of Fury allows disembarking (not embarking) at any movement over 6", at a risk, and that's it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
But how do you argue with someone who says "I'm disembarking in the shooting phase because skies of fury overrides the restriction that i can only do so in the movement phase"?

They would need to show where in the rules that they could. Since they cannot provide any such rules, it's a non-issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

txdyz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The instance when you want to disembark the passengers on your Stormraven that happens to be moving more than 6" that turn. Let's brake it down:

Stormraven with passengers will be moving more than 6" this movement phase (it's zooming). I cannot normally disembark under this condition, but thankfully the Stormraven comes equipped with the Skies of Fury special rule, which allows me to disembark the passengers via Deep Stike at any point I choose over which the Stormraven will move/did move.

That would be that one instance the rule applies to.

SJ

Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
Again, this restriction is not relevant to distance of moving. If you think that the sentence is equal to "can disembark before move or after move no more than 6"", then please prove that passengers can disembark from a zooming flyer before it moves as I have asked for again and again.
As you said before: A rule that overrides one restriction is overriding ... one restriction. Now there are two.

The only restriction, as has been posted numerous times in this thread, that prevent units from embarking or disembarking a zooming transport is that zooming has a 18" minimum move, which is more than the normal 6" limit. Skies of Fury allows disembarking (not embarking) at any movement over 6", at a risk, and that's it.

SJ

So I see. You don't have the BRB.
And you even don't want to read what I pasted for you from the BRB.
I guess you even allow a disembarkment after Flat Out because that's also a more than 6" moving.
Here I paste it for you again.
Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

txdyz wrote:


So I see. You don't have the BRB.
And you even don't want to read what I pasted for you from the BRB.
I guess you even allow a disembarkment after Flat Out because that's also a more than 6" moving.
Here I paste it for you again.
Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

I have been following this thread as its quite entertaining.. but seriously I don't see where the confusion comes from.

As you stated BRB zooming:
Models can't disembark etc

Codec rule, skys of fury:
If the raven has moved more than 6" units may still disembark.

Seems to override that rule.. distance of zoom doesn't matter.. also hey since this is a friendly fun game right? Read page 197 of 6e (don't have 7e on me), fluff but hey

12 space marines may be accommodated inside the adimantium belly, ready to charge when the assault ramp clangs down, or to make an Ariel assault via grav chutes should a landing not be possible

You would have to be a pretty miserable person to tell your friend he can't do this :/

my 2cents

Cheers!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Stormraven with passengers will be moving more than 6" this movement phase (it's zooming).
SJ

Excuse me, but can my Stormraven only move up to 6" while Hovering or are you arguing that the vehicle must be Zooming as it moved over certain amount of inches? You also take the rule telling us how a flyer moves while Zooming and try to make that the definition of Zooming.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

txdyz wrote:


So I see. You don't have the BRB.
And you even don't want to read what I pasted for you from the BRB.
I guess you even allow a disembarkment after Flat Out because that's also a more than 6" moving.
Here I paste it for you again.
Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

I have been following this thread as its quite entertaining.. but seriously I don't see where the confusion comes from.

As you stated BRB zooming:
Models can't disembark etc

Codec rule, skys of fury:
If the raven has moved more than 6" units may still disembark.

Seems to override that rule.. distance of zoom doesn't matter.. also hey since this is a friendly fun game right? Read page 197 of 6e (don't have 7e on me), fluff but hey

Cheers!

You can see another rule in Transport section that says “passengers can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved, so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".”, which Skies of Fury rule actually overrides.

txdyz wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

txdyz wrote:


So I see. You don't have the BRB.
And you even don't want to read what I pasted for you from the BRB.
I guess you even allow a disembarkment after Flat Out because that's also a more than 6" moving.
Here I paste it for you again.
Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

I have been following this thread as its quite entertaining.. but seriously I don't see where the confusion comes from.

As you stated BRB zooming:
Models can't disembark etc

Codec rule, skys of fury:
If the raven has moved more than 6" units may still disembark.

Seems to override that rule.. distance of zoom doesn't matter.. also hey since this is a friendly fun game right? Read page 197 of 6e (don't have 7e on me), fluff but hey

Cheers!

You can see another rule in Transport section that says “passengers can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved, so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".”, which Skies of Fury rule actually overrides.

Eh.. it's hard to say it is meant for either rule..

have you stopped your opponent from doing this in a game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I say this because when you zoom you still move over 6"... I can see both arguments here.

So the BRB makes it clear that you cannot embark/disembark from a zooming flyer.

The BRB states that If a flyer can hover, in the case of transports, this allows models to embark/disembark.

The BRB says that a flyer that chooses to hover is treated as a fast skimmer.

Fast skimmers can move at combat speed (up to 6") or cruising speed (more than 6" up to 12").

In the BRB, a unit cannot disembark from a vehicle which has moved more than 6".

So the way I see it, if you want to disembark a unit from a stormraven, first you must be in hover mode (so now the Raven is a skimmer). Then should you choose to move at combat speed (up to 6"), the embarked unit can then disembark and assault as per the assault vehicle rule. Should the vehicle move at cruising speed (more than 6" up to 12"), the unit can still disembark but must do so as though it were deep striking as per the skies of fury rule and if the stormraven has a locator beacon and the unit disembarks within 6" it will not scatter.

The case could be made that since skies of fury does not specify the mode the flyer must be in to disembark but only only a distance travelled, that you should be able to jump out while zooming too.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

txdyz wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

txdyz wrote:


So I see. You don't have the BRB.
And you even don't want to read what I pasted for you from the BRB.
I guess you even allow a disembarkment after Flat Out because that's also a more than 6" moving.
Here I paste it for you again.
Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

I have been following this thread as its quite entertaining.. but seriously I don't see where the confusion comes from.

As you stated BRB zooming:
Models can't disembark etc

Codec rule, skys of fury:
If the raven has moved more than 6" units may still disembark.

Seems to override that rule.. distance of zoom doesn't matter.. also hey since this is a friendly fun game right? Read page 197 of 6e (don't have 7e on me), fluff but hey

Cheers!

You can see another rule in Transport section that says “passengers can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved, so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".”, which Skies of Fury rule actually overrides.

Eh.. it's hard to say it is meant for either rule..

have you stopped your opponent from doing this in a game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I say this because when you zoom you still move over 6"... I can see both arguments here.

Just look at the Necron one's rule. It wrote clearly that passengers can disembark from zooming Night Scythe.
As mostly agreed, a rule that overrides one restriction is overriding one restriction, not every restriction.
I will not force a player stop doing that, but notice him. Rule is rule, and game is game.

 Ghaz wrote:
Since no one's been willing to post the definition of Zooming, I will:

Zoom, pg 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36".

So the rulebook defines Zooming as moving 18" up to 36". Is moving 18" up to 36" moving more than 6"?

Seriously, those arguing that Skies of Fury doesn't work with a Zooming Flyer reminds me of that insurance commercial where the kid is drinking allof the cartons of milk.

Flo: "Aren't you lactose intolerant?"

Kid: "This isn't lactose, it's milk!"

That is not the definition of zooming; that is how a zooming flyer moves.

The deffinition of zooming is a special kind of move that flyer can usually only make.